Juwan's clock is ticking
I'm sure I'll get negged, but this has to be said. Between the temper, the complete lack of team effort, inability to adjust, inability to teach guards to feed the post, no obvious development through long stretches of practice, and just awful strategy, he's on the hot seat.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:10 PM ^
Also kinda sucks you have to preface something with barring another anger issue. Almost get the feeling any minor dust up or technical of his will now be dissected with a microscope and that instills fear and hesitancy, obviously can’t have that from your coaching staff.
Idk maybe they make a run in conference play or the B1G tournament but I’m not seeing where anyone is willing to take that bet.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:20 PM ^
Guarantee? Warde, is that you?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:33 PM ^
We didn't get the portal guy we needed--Terrence Shannon, Jr.,, who wanted to come here--due to circumstances beyond Juwan's control. The guard we brought in got injured. I'm not the Oracle of Delphi, so I don't know if we'd be a good team with them, but we'd be a better team with them. Dickinson has regressed and looks disinterested; his rebounding deficiencies were better hidden on previous teams. Kobe is golden; Jett is an incredibly talented kid, and Dug will be a great guard next year.
Juwan, Howard Eisely--all these guys were god's gift a minute ago, and now we simply don't have the personnel for a strong team. Yeah, that's on them; they're the coaches. But you don't say they're failing after a season of such misfortune and miscues; you say it--especially with someone who's been to three straight Sweet 16s, when it doesn't work out 2-3 years running and you can see that next year's team won't do it, either. Juwan's here next year, whether any of the hysterics like it or not, and next year--TBH--looks iffy personnel-wise. Some heimlich maneuvering is gonna be in order. But I don't think he's gone, given Warde's phlegmatic character, unless the next year looks really really dim. Likely Juwan has two years to right the ship.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:58 PM ^
Hes Brady hoke... decent recruiter
Terrible coach
December 29th, 2022 at 9:58 PM ^
After what Harbaugh has done since the 2020 season i learned never call for a coaches job prematurely. You'll look like an idiot
December 29th, 2022 at 10:03 PM ^
Harbaugh's history and track record as a head coach with success at multiple locations is a key difference though.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:04 PM ^
Difference is Harbaugh had a lot of prior examples of building programs. The expectations were immediate for Harbaugh and he had to build the program up from what Hoke and RR had destroyed. Howard is in year four and his best team was with Beilein’s players. He also has no previous head coaching experience or examples of program building. I’m absolutely not on the fire him train as of now but I’m getting there. What he has to do is a staff makeover this off-season. If he doesn’t do anything and they have a mediocre year next year, then he needs to go.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:15 PM ^
Previous success doesnt mean anything when judging a coach on his current position. I never understand why people bring that up. If that was so important RR would have never been fired.
I would argue Harbaugh and Howard had similar success with other coaches players. Until 2020 Harbaughs best season was 2016 and that team was all Brady Hoke players including Jabrill Peppers. Again Howard might miss the tournament 2 years in a row then yes i will be the first to call for his job. Until that happens calling for his job or looking at potential replacements after a regular season loss CMU in December is completely idiotic.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:23 PM ^
Your first sentence is absurd.
December 30th, 2022 at 8:24 AM ^
Maybe they're recalling a 1-800-call-sam commercial which states past performance is not an indicator of future results?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:28 PM ^
That’s why I said he needs a staff overhaul. Beilein did it twice. It’s not just about this loss, it’s a combination of things. I don’t think he needs to be fired this year but if this year ends up poor and next year he and the same staff and similar results then absolutely be needs to go.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:34 PM ^
It does matter in terms of whether you think they can coach, and that the bad year is an aberration.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:35 PM ^
Uhh, Harbaugh coached Brady Hoke's players from 7 and 5 regular season wins to 10 regular seasons wins. However, Howard coached Beilein's players from 24 and 26 regular season wins to 19 regular season wins. Harbaugh got talent to play better. Howard inherited talent and the results were worse.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:47 PM ^
This is where context matters.
From Beilein's 2019 team:
- Jordan Poole left. (He bet on himself and clearly made the right decision.)
- Charles Matthews left.
- Iggy Brazdeikis left.
That's 3 out of 5 starters who left Michigan.
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On the flip side, Hoke actually had relatively little attrition (which was one of the interesting things about Hoke's tenure). Hence, Harbaugh inherited a talented but underachieving team.
Look at the names on the 2015 defense. How many of the starters and 2 deep were Hoke players? Nearly all of them. And 90% of the 2015 defense returned for 2016. (I recall Willie Henry left.)
Look at the names on the 2015 offense. How many of the starters were Hoke players? Nearly all of them. And just like the defense, most of the offense returned for the 2016 season.
Harbaugh benefited A LOT from continuity. Greg Mattison (2014 DC) remained on Harbaugh's staff as the DL coach.
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Make arguments that can hold up to scrutiny. Do better.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:50 PM ^
And Livers got injured ...
December 30th, 2022 at 7:59 AM ^
Yes. Context matters.
Basketball is a hell of a lot easier to "turn around" than Football is.
Also, Beilein's final recruiting class was a very good class, and Howard's first recruiting class was AWESOME. Meaning that roster was very talented, even with the 3 starters leaving. From a program that played in the National Championship game in 2018 and 2013.
The Basketball "program" was seen as top tier, because it had a lot of recent success, so it was easier to recruit top level players.....which Basketball only needs a couple of great players to be awesome.
Conversely, the Football "program" hadn't seen any success during the entire lifetimes of the recruits. In a sport that not only needs "stars", but they need a ton of them to be successful, because injuries are almost a given.
Looking at the overall condition of the program is more important than anything you just mentioned. So.....just as you just said to that guy. Do better. 🤷♂️
----Also, Hoke took over a team with talent. To say otherwise is nonsense. Not saying that the team was national championship level or anything, but the "talent" was there. He also recruited a lot of "talent". All of his recruiting classes were filled with highly ranked players. The problem was that he couldn't do anything with that "talent", and they looked poorly coached. Dogfights with teams like UCONN and losing to a SHIT Rutgers team were prime examples of that. The best thing Hoke did was bringing in Mattison. Hoke inherited a fantastic offense and a defense with talented players, but didn't know how to play defense. Mattison coached up those talented defensive players and taught them how to play. That's why 2011 was successful. Not because of Hoke. Also, 2011's team was the luckiest team I've ever seen. Go back and watch those games. Easily could have been a terrible season, if not for miraculously lucky breaks all season long.
Conversely, Harbaugh took over a talented roster and had to not only teach them how to play, but teach them how to "win". Not only that, but Harbaugh also filled roster holes with players he recruited and/or identifying successful position switches (like Chase Winovich). A lot of Freshman players played his first two years. Not to mention Jake Ruddock (which Harbaugh brought in, before the "transfer portal" was a thing). Harbaugh’s worst (full) season was equal to Hoke's second best season, and all of his other seasons were about the same level (or better) as a normal Carr season.
December 30th, 2022 at 7:20 AM ^
2018's team went into the OSU game with 1 loss and undefeated in the conference. They "shared" the East Division Championship with OSU even after losing to them. The OSU loss was very disappointing, but if you really paid attention, then you'd realize that Michigan was decimated by injuries that game (which they didn't have the depth needed to make up for it).....to ALL of their best players. Only Chase Winovich (who didn't really play vs OSU) was recruited by Hoke, and he never played for Hoke.....also didn't play the position that Hoke recruited him for.
The bowl game had the majority of the best players "opt out", which we've seen now that kills the quality of bowl game play.
So, Harbaugh took over a program in shambles, immediately turned them into a "respectable" program again, had a great 2016 season, had a very very good 2018 season, and was still trying to build a program and not just a few good players. Obviously, 2021 and this season are ones for history books.
Conversely, Howard took over a program that was playing in the National Championship game two years before he took over, and had a pretty good recruiting class and team nucleus when he took over the team.
December 30th, 2022 at 9:45 AM ^
We're really going to be naive and downplay this loss for what reason?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:29 PM ^
Unpopular opinion but I just lost interest in Juwan after the Wisconsin game last year. I was a huge supporter too. That being said I kind of gave up on Harbaugh too after 2020. Juwan needs to figure it out and make changes.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:38 PM ^
I did a bit too. And to be completely honest I kind of liked watching the team more with Martelli coaching it.
Frankly I think the Wisconsin incident will prove difficult for Howard to recover from in college ball. He kind of became somewhat of a joke overnight in the eyes of many, and I think it took Michigan off the table for a lot of highly ranked recruits.
It also was a personal disappointment for me, it was the antithesis of the program and ideas that Beilein instilled and that I really loved.
December 30th, 2022 at 6:49 AM ^
Yup, that Wisconsin incident lost me too. The adult in the room is not supposed to have a temper tantrum, especially at Michigan. I don't care who he is.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:51 PM ^
Well put. I was always a Harbaugh believer but I did have my doubts during some of the darkest times. But this is definitely bad for Coach Howard. Hopefully this will be the lowest point in his career and it will be all uphill from here.
I also think its important not to forget that Beilein lost to NJIT and many members of this board were calling for his head for a looong time. He only earned his lifetime pass after the 2018 finals run and then most of those same people were quiet. I'm a big Juwan fan, but I really loved Beilein and was sad to see him go. I think he's the better college coach and Juwan is better suited for the pros. But I would LOVE to see JB come back and take up that Phil Martelli role. I think that would turn Michigan into a killing machine.
December 29th, 2022 at 11:45 PM ^
I would love to see JB back too, but then I'm leery of it. Would all of the attention then be on JB? Martelli could come in with not a lot of hoopla because he had no history with the program. JB is a legend in Ann Arbor. I'm just not sure how that all would go.
December 30th, 2022 at 8:56 AM ^
I think he is one of the only people who could do it under the circumstances and not have him be the story. Howard would never do it though.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:59 PM ^
I doubt very much that Warde Manual agrees. Things are not ideal, though. There's no question about that.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:36 PM ^
Yeah, I'm concerned about Howard, and that it could take a long while for the higher-ups to cut bait. The potential is there for a long frustrating decline. I hope folks are internalizing this possibility because a long decline sucks enough as it is, but a long decline with weekly hot take threads would be even worse. Put what you think out there once, and then move on.
December 30th, 2022 at 11:14 AM ^
One of the primary concerns that I had with the Howard hire is that I wasn’t sure it was a great idea to dip back into the Fab Five. They were electric to watch and very memorable, but the aftertaste was long and gross. Now if they fire Howard they are opening up old wounds too. It was a risky hire. This year is shot. The best case scenario is that he gets another year and rights the ship.
December 29th, 2022 at 9:59 PM ^
Side question: do we have something that is the opposite of Muppets?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:06 PM ^
Highlights of 2018-2019 OSU games.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:13 PM ^
I think it’s some type of sleepy otter or something.
Check the MGoDefinitions or something but I remember a lot of front page posts during the RichRod years where it was used weekly during the season.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:33 PM ^
Henri, the otter of ennui
December 29th, 2022 at 10:15 PM ^
I think we call them the RichRod / Hoke years.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:01 PM ^
I think this is much much too soon. It is fair to express concern with:
- Hunter's development both physically and as a basketball player
- The point guard position
- The defense
Otherwise Juwan's clearly had successes in recruiting, player development (Franz, Austin Davis, now Kobe), and offensive scheme.
I think it might be time to refresh the staff, and if that doesn't work then it's probably time to talk a new direction. Long way from that in my eyes.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:09 PM ^
I think your staff comment is right on. Beilein had two dips and both times he shook up the staff. Doesn't mean there's necessarily anything wrong with the guys he has, it just seems stale. It's hard to complain too much coming off back to back sweet 16s, but this will likely be 3/3 finishing in the bottom half of the B1G in non-COVID seasons.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:51 PM ^
Beilein's real 1* dip was because his best player played half the season (Caris LeVert) and still took a final 4 MSU team and runner-up Wisconsin to OT with Spike Albrecht and Andrew Dakich running PG, the year after losing Stauskas, GR3, McGary, Morgan and Horford. Beilein's down season is not comparable to this.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:56 PM ^
Agree. I'm still in shock at our general refusal to run the offense through Dickinson (if doubled, he can pass it to an open shooter, and if not doubled, he can go to the bucket), and our specific refusal to give him even a touch in late possessions in any of our recent losses, including, most notably, this one.
But ... Juwan is not the only coach on the team, and Martelli is getting paid a lot of money to do more than sit there. How can nobody be saying, "Hey, Hunter has drawn fouls every time he's had the ball down low in the second half. Why don't we try to get him the ball at least once in the last minute of the game?"
What ... what do they do during practice?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:02 PM ^
He is gone to an elite 8 and a Sweet 16 in his first 3 seasons. He has time. Let me guess, you wanted Harbaugh fired as well. Relax, it will be fine. Who is the basketball version of Matt Campbell that you want hired?
December 29th, 2022 at 10:21 PM ^
Shaka Smart was the hot name when everyone was calling for Beilein to be fired.
December 30th, 2022 at 9:48 AM ^
That copium must be hitting really hard.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:05 PM ^
We are a football school
December 29th, 2022 at 10:05 PM ^
The team has talent. There is either one of 2 things going on.
1. Juwan can’t coach (which I doubt is the case but he has made some questionable choices with personnel.)
or
2. There is a culture issue much like the 2020 and previous football teams. Who is the leader of this team? It’s not HD. He’s too busy running his mouth and trying to act like a tough guy. There’s no Eli Brooks type on this team.
don’t think clock is ticking yet but let’s see how the rest of the season goes.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:47 PM ^
I kind of think its 1b: Juwan is a great assistant coach, not head coach.
He can recruit, he can develop individuals, but he can’t lead a team. Uses auto-bench, consistently mismanages subs so he has line-ups with no lead scorer, calls momentum stopping timeouts a possession or two late… we joke about football coaches needing a Madden kid, Juwan needs a 2K kid
December 29th, 2022 at 10:49 PM ^
Uhh, even with 5th year Senior Eli Brooks' leadership last year, the team went 17-13 in the regular season. And, Coach Howard doesn't get the benefit of the doubt regarding his coaching. Aside from the one Covid season, what indication is there that he can coach? After a 7-0 start in 2019, the team went 12-12 the rest of the season. The overwhelming bulk of the season, he was a .500 coach. Last year, he was barely a .500 coach (14-11 while on the bench). And, this season, he's 7-5. Further, the team looks and performs like its poorly coached. As far as the Covid year, as I said with the football team, that season was an aberration. In hoops, NC, Duke, and Kentucky were all bad! Abnormal results in an abnormal season. So, where does this benefit of the doubt come from with Howard's coaching?
December 30th, 2022 at 3:51 AM ^
Hunter is the leader, whether we like it or not. Your best players have to lead by example. He takes plays off, and that's being emulated. If I'm coaching, I'm benching anyone who loafs going forward. Instill your culture ASAP or you're screwed.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:06 PM ^
I thought this was about his watch.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:07 PM ^
Yes everything sucks.
It would be so much better for our fickle fan base if the football team had beaten OSU, gone undefeated, won the B10 Championship and qualified for the CFP.
We have nothing to look forward to do we?
I believe everyone complaining needs to look at him/herself in the mirror and honestly ask how they are doing performing their job at the present time (if you have a job).
Support the team and coaches. If this happens again next year and the year after, we can talk. We’ve survived three years of Rich Rod and four years of Brady Hoke with Dave “I’ll sell you a toy” Brandon steering the ship.
In the meantime, chill the fuck out.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:29 PM ^
Fuck off. It's a message board. People can have opinions that are different than yours. Last I knew, Juwan wasn't one of the football coaches so what the football team is doing isn't relevant to the conversation.
December 29th, 2022 at 10:37 PM ^
You sound like a twat
December 29th, 2022 at 10:41 PM ^
Great. Thanks. I care a LOT about what you think I sound like. I didn't realize everyone was suppose to just "chill out" and never say anything about our basketball coaches because hey the football team is doing well. So if you don't like it, eat a whole big bag of dicks and then when you're done with that, eat a couple more.