Interesting information in the Thamel expects Big Ten to act thread
Original OP:
This isn't my information, and I asked the user to post a thread about it, but I feel that it is important enough for its own threat. The information is buried deep in a thread moving down the board and off the front page.
Scroll down to near the end of the Thamel expects the Big Ten to act in the next 48-72 hours thread. When it was originally posted it was on page 3 just before the time change on Saturday night/Sunday morning.
Sorry to be cryptic but since it wasn't my information, I didn't want to post it but again, I feel it's important to draw attention to.
Bluesince89's quite sound retort:
I'm going to call bullshit on the original post.
1) The source is from the law firm working on the case? So the attorney(s) just breached attorney-client privilege and a host of ethics rules in their state (they're all pretty much the same) in addition to firm policy to leak this to their buddy. I've worked on some pretty high-profile, media intense cases in my career and never once have I thought, "let me tell my buddies ahead of time so they know how cool I am." You know why? Because as valuable as I am to my firm, that's a sure fire way to get fired because no clients will trust you after that.
2) "The firm is working this weekend to determine whether to file the suit in local, state, or federal court as reaction time is critical." Ahh yes, so they're debating whether to ask for an injunction against the Big 10 Conference in the 15th District Municipal Court in Ann Arbor? Or in the Rosemont, Illinois equivalent? Yea, no. This suit, if filed, is landing in Federal court (E.D. Mich. or N.D. Ill.), Washtenaw County Circuit Court, or Cook County Circuit Court. Probably E.D. Mich. all things considered. If the firm is seriously debating anything else other than that, they're morons but I know that's not true because UMich hires the absolute best of the best for their biggest cases. The local Big Michigan firms usually don't make the cut unless they're one of the national firms with a Detroit or Ann Arbor Office (Jones Day, Foley, Schiff Harden or whatever their new name is, Troutman Pepper, etc.)
3) An immediate stay of the suspension? It's not an appeal.
4) He's also signaling their strategy so you can share it on a message board? Not just a lawsuit is coming, but this is what we're doing. I could see leaking it to a media outlet, but comon.
None of this passes the smell test of anything reputable.
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MOD EDIT - I will leave the thread for a bit as it is long buried now, but I want everyone to see the reply of an experienced trial attorney to the OP. - LSA
November 5th, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^
It just goes to show that OSU runs the B1G and Michigan has upset the Apple cart of the 20 year run of OSU dominating the conference! I think it sad that the B1G is going to treat Michigan unfairly. But since the B1G has not started an investigation, the most the commissioner can do is suspend Harbaugh for 2 games! Which is wrong!
November 5th, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
I fully anticipate the worst to happen because the timing and sensationalizing of all this is clearly a hit job (thats working) meant to derail Ms season, but honestly the only thing that worries me now is the PSU game. It seems the most important thing for the coward coaches in this sham conference is Harbaugh, so if M were to keep winning without him this whole thing might start to lose some steam.
That being said, I think M rolls Maryland and still beats OSU without Harbaugh even in a worst case situation. I just think going to PSU, with all the drama around the program, the public "outcry", losing your coach days before the game, and with PSU seemingly playing really well last week, that game could be a real tall task. I think M is a better team and wins 8/10 times, but to me it's a lot to overcome, no matter how galvanizing of a situation it could be for the players. Get past PSU though and I feel pretty good about whatever other bullshit obstacles present themselves.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:41 AM ^
I’m of the mind that you simply ignore whatever illegal action the Big takes and continue as normal.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:45 AM ^
Regardless whether the B1G suspends Harbaugh or not in the next few days, it seems to me that the damage to the conference and Michigan’s reputation has already been done - and it’s irreparable. The same is also true of the relationship between the B1G and Michigan. Michigan is almost forced to leave the conference at this point - there aren’t any other (better) options any longer.
That leads me to believe that this was a likely goal of whomever decided to start this snowball rolling downhill. The “who benefits?” question is pretty obvious and a short list. It’s simply too easy to foresee the consequences of a move like this against Michigan without making it the objective.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
They don't want Michigan to leave the Big Ten. It'd wipe double figure millions off their own brand's value overnight. They just want Harbaugh to get canned and see Michigan go through a coaching change, transition process etc. because a Michigan that's dominant upsets the Big Ten apple cart that those guys have gotten used to in the last 20-25 years.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:27 AM ^
That's what they want - but they can't have that and they must surely know it.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Shameful. This isn't about M, it's about JH and his standing up for player revenue sharing. The NCAA & B1G don't want to give up a piece of the pie. They are like share croppers who exploited freed slaves. The media should be pointing out that the establishment fat cats are persecuting JH. They should be holding him up like MLK or Abraham Lincoln. Instead they vilify him. They are functioning like Goebels did for Hitler.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:29 AM ^
Surprisingly, Maurice Clarrett made those assertions.
November 5th, 2023 at 1:06 PM ^
And then Godwin's law was fulfilled.
November 5th, 2023 at 9:50 AM ^
What happens if Michigan ignored the B1G keeps JH as coach the rest of the season! JH shows up with the team in Happy Valley!
November 5th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
Exactly.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
Just speculation, but perhaps B1G could vacate any wins? Bar UM from the league championship game?
November 5th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
Yeah, the old "we're gonna pretend that something everyone knows happened, didnt actually happen" punishment. Let them vacate it. Doesn't change the reality.
Broadly, I agree with the sentiments in this thread that it's time to leave this POS conference. We have a rival who thinks they're entitled to beat us every year and now that they've lost twice in a row, they've banded the conference together to try to destroy our program. Fuck that.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:20 AM ^
You will know there's a nonzero chance of the latter when sportsbooks stop taking futures action on the championship.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^
This is one of the few points that hasn't been discussed much that I've seen. Vegas has not made any big shift in the betting lines for the B1G championship - M is still the favorite. They have improved OSU's odds a bit, but that's about it. Vegas probably sees the bluff in all this.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
What length could discovery go in a case like this? How many would be at risk/ could we go after. I’m no legal expert but if this would open up the big10 offices to full discovery? The big10 reportedly received its evidence from member schools, AD’s and coaches. Would they all be open to discovery? The big10 also reportedly got info from NCAA memo’s or whatever Ono referred to them as in his letter, does that open up the ncaa to discovery? The ncaa got some of its evidence from the WaPo whom got it from an unknown PI source, would all parties be open to discovery?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
That’s an interesting question. I don’t know how much discovery goes on when you are just going to court to block a 3rd party administrative process (eg B1G handing out a suspension without their own due process). It would be nice if it got to the point of discovery, eventually, ideally as part of blocking the B1G “ruling” as opposed to as a part of a damages claimed - because it would suck to have been damaged. If that did happen though, I imagine there would be multiple fronts we could take that would be a hard pill to swallow for the other 13 programs - first being discovery of all B1G scouting operations to determine how many teams operate in the gray area.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
Discovery is an interesting process. It will probably begin by Michigan’s attorneys casting a very wide net in terms of interrogatories, documents, communications, and subpoenas. The other parties (particularly the non-parties to the suit) will file motions to block discovery and there will be hearings, etc. It will not be a speedy process nor will it be subject to the timelines of a rabid media or fanbases (though the pressure to leak will be enormous - and it’s possible that the leaks will be frequent).
That’s why I mentioned in a thread yesterday that the attorneys for the other schools should be advising their clients to slow their roll right damn now. And if the ADs and coaches don’t get the message, the university presidents and boards of governors for whom they work absolutely should.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:53 AM ^
This was pretty much where I was headed with my comment. Forget about these idiots not thinking about future implications in some abstract way…literally the next two legal steps will involve requests for detailed information on their own scouting habits. We won’t need a PI to break into their data bases - the courts will compel them to turn documents over. How an AD or President thinks that their scouting operation is ultimately any cleaner than ours is incredibly naive and stupid.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
Yep. This is also where the interests of the many parties also diverge. Just as there is no honor among thieves, there is no "we're in this together" when counsel starts advising clients on institutional and personal legal exposure and risk. There are so many parties involved now that it's practically assured that someone is going to produce the evidence that reveals where all of this really began. It just takes one.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^
I don't think so, seems they'd all get deposed, but the only parties open to the discovery process should be the parties named in any potential lawsuit. I think...
November 5th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
If Michigan chose to 'ignore' the Big Ten, they would ban Michigan from the B1G championship game, the post-season and vacate all the wins.
To be fair, it's quite possible that's their 'end game' anyway.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
Go ahead B1G, suspend Harbaugh. We'll see you in court, and fuck up everyone on the field. Cowards.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:17 AM ^
Can someone tell me what the B10 money cannon looks like (what we receive from media bowls etc) I don’t know these numbers but I find it very hard to think we walk away from that revenue , even being that yes we would have money at another conference…. Would it even come close to B10?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:43 AM ^
Michigan *generates* the revenue that the B1G shares with these schools that hate us.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^
I don't know if there's going to be anyone here in a position to answer this, but how are the network contracts structured? Do the networks have an out if there's a radical restructuring of conference membership in the middle of a deal?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
Possibly, which is why I suspect that attorneys representing the networks are preparing their own strongly-worded letters to the B1G, and preparing their own motions as well. The rival schools' coaches and ADs who demanded Harbaugh's "head on a platter" may have just written checks that their bodies and institutions can't cash.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
This is something else that’s been on my mind. Could Fox potentially get in on a law suit against the Big10 of its own. If the Big10 is willfully damaging there own product which Fox paid for, what are there options legally?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
I wouldn't take this as a given, it would be ordinary practice for a law firm to prepare a filing like this in case it becomes necessary. But yes the witch hunters are out for blood and this is very much a possibility. Which is beyond insane.
November 5th, 2023 at 10:51 AM ^
Your taking anything that thamel says at face value?
November 5th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
Slippery slope for the BIG.
Sources saying Federal indictments coming for OSU for illegally obtaining UM computers.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:03 AM ^
Is that /s? Or are sources really saying this?
November 5th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
What sources?
November 5th, 2023 at 11:22 AM ^
Just like with the so-called sources from media who is skewering Michigan, I need an actual source to believe this.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
This is a case study on the use of language to create an emotional reaction. The media and opponents are using the phrase "sign stealing" to create a narrative that should be rejected. Deciphering another teams signs and using that to your advantage is NOT illegal under NCAA rules under any scenario. In person scouting is what is not allowed under NCAA rules.
Everyone needs to stop accepting the "sign stealing" narrative as legitimate. Using a phrase that has "stealing" in it causes a visceral reaction from the listener regardless of the NCAA rule book. The labeling of this scandal in this manner redirects everyone to believe that a team is cheating if they are able to decipher another teams signs. It is not!
November 5th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
I was only half-listening but I'm pretty sure I heard the NBC pregame hosts refer to this as an "advance scouting investigation." First network to take that route.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
No surprise, the networks that carry Michigan have starting using terms like "advance sign scouting". Meanwhile, ESPN / ABC are still going for shock value with "SIGN STEALING!!"
This is all just theatre with each media outlet promoting the narrative that fits their biases and advances their bottom line.
Why should sports media be any different than news media?
November 5th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
It's insane that they would want to suspend him for years and pretty much force Harbaugh to resign or be fired.
How can they think advanced scouting rises to this? That seems like a nuclear option for something minor. Michigan must tear the B1G apart then.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:32 AM ^
I always love me some good legal battles. Fire up the money cannon, lawyers about to get paid (and I have no problem with that).
As an aside to all the JDs commenting, no one has addressed that the person in the black robe can be unpredictable.
November 5th, 2023 at 7:00 PM ^
That is spot on and why there is no absolute best place to file this thing. Plenty of judgeships out there who would tell you to get in the back of the line with your minor employment case about college sports.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
Honestly, even if Harbaugh directly hired this guy stating in his interview directly that they are paying him to cheat, if the Big Ten suspends Harbaugh indefinitely without due process and the university bends over and takes it I will never watch another Michigan sporting event in my life.
I'm sick of cancel culture in this society. I'm sick of mob mentality. And most importantly I'm sick of what this country accepts as Journalism. I am but one man, one voice, but I will hold onto my integrity as that is all I can do.
If anyone can find proof of wrong doing that was coordinated throughout the program, fine, fire Harbaugh. Hell, even if you can prove that Stallions broke rules, suspend Harbaugh, vacate wins if necessary, and take money. But not until any part of it is proven.
Sadly, I think this will be a breaking point in US society. Politics aside, we have let Idiocracy run amok to a point where we have let it become the standard. We are fed lies and bullshit by our journalist and we accept it because "that's my team". Well it's time for that reckoning to happen. Let due process fail and take down everything with it.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
So basically, Stallions has ruined our season, reputation, and future of the program.
November 5th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
Wouldn't it be so perfect for the Big Ten to act heading into the only 20 days of the year that really matter - PSU/MD/OSU. Utter bullshit.
November 5th, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
If the Big Ten suspends Jim Harbaugh indefinitely based on accusations about some obscure football rule, then they have to suspend Ryan Day indefinitely based on accusations about being behind the illegal spying on a member institution.
If the Big Ten college presidents are that shocked about some low-level football rule that they didn't even know was a rule 2 weeks ago, then they have to be really shocked about member institutions spying on each other.
They need to apply the same standard if they are going down this road.