redjugador24

May 9th, 2022 at 12:14 PM ^

This was one of the cases where the victim reported it to MSU counselors and they advised it would not be in her best interest to file a police report, right? Then the AD conducted his own investigation? Then several years later the police became involved once the entire AD was found to be mishandling these types of allegations? 

Is this the right one? 

Due process 😂

bronxblue

May 9th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^

People are multi-faceted so I will accept that he (and Keith Appling) did legitimately care about Lacey Holsworth, but as others have noted both of them were heavily implicated in a sexual assault at MSU (even if the victim ultimately didn't press charges).  

It's sad he's dead because nobody should be shot but I'm not ready to call him a "model citizen"

TK

May 9th, 2022 at 12:19 PM ^

LDD10 took this thread off the rails. Reading through his posts he’s obviously a Sparty but probably pretends he isn’t. 

ldd10

May 9th, 2022 at 12:21 PM ^

How did I take it off the rails?  And, yes I am a MSU fan - I've been open about that.  I also don't really hate UM or anything (great school, great town, yada yada yada).

I'm just saying calling somebody an absolute 100% rapist when that's just not proven is questionable.  

bronxblue

May 9th, 2022 at 12:32 PM ^

No, you spent a bunch of responses calling out anyone who had the temerity to point out that there was documented evidence of MSU mishandling the investigation (amongst many others) and that because the victim ultimately didn't press charges there's nothing to see here.

By the way, this is how Payne himself described the interaction with the survivor to police when she initially made the charge.

A police report obtained by Outside the Lines revealed that Payne told police he could “understand how she would feel that she was not free to leave.”

Again, it's not going to help anyone to relitigate something from over a decade ago when the facts themselves haven't changed and one of the individuals involved is dead, but save me the "I'm just asking questions" BS.  I saw the same reflexive defense of UM here after various incidents (most recently after the Anderson claims people scrambling to defend Bo), so it isn't unique to MSU but I can't see the value in dying on the "Adrien Payne didn't sexually assault someone" hill.

ldd10

May 9th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^

That's all fair, but you could also use this exact type of argument to say it's not a great look for others to claim he's an absolute, 100% proven rapist.  Look, there is nuance in this...and I just think people should probably think through their takes before demolishing him right after he died.

CRISPed in the DIAG

May 9th, 2022 at 12:42 PM ^

The insular culture of protecting football/basketball/hockey players from criminal behavior at MSU was the basis for the ESPN article. From that standpoint, it should be pretty easy to understand why there was frustration at the inability to provide remedies to victims.

My original post was admittedly cynical because of how Payne's community work suddenly became newsworthy at the same time that that stories of rapes started going through the rumor mill or were outright reported.

Blaming any of this on the *rivalry* is even more cynical, but ymmv. 

Maison Bleue

May 9th, 2022 at 12:55 PM ^

See, this is where you're completely wrong. Brendan Gibbons(former UM football player) had a similar situation around the same time(he was kicked off the team and out of school, even though no charges were brought against him) and no one was screaming "wait, wait! Let's be open to the nuance of the situation!" In fact, people around here still hold ill feelings toward Taylor Lewan for his part in that story.

It doesn't matter what color uniform you wear, if you act like an asshole, then you're an asshole.

Maison Bleue

May 9th, 2022 at 1:18 PM ^

Yep, Hoke left a lot to be desired as a head coach, both on the field and more importantly off of it. But, once the university did its own investigation into the situation, he was booted.

What happened to Payne and Appling after MSU did an internal investigation? Oh, that's right, they finished their careers as MSU basketball heroes.

bronxblue

May 9th, 2022 at 3:04 PM ^

He was kicked out (no pun intended) of the school, which to my knowledge he was still enrolled in as a graduate student.  I believe this expulsion goes on his permanent record and shows up in some background checks (that's what I've heard from different employers, but obviously it probably depends on the background checking service).  I don't think that situation was handled great by the school or Hoke but to frame this as an example of Michigan not punishing him and instead just letting the clock run out is unfair.

Again, it sucks that a human being died at the age of 31 in such a violent manner.  And he likely did legitimately care about Haley and even if he didn't, his actions toward her made her happy during an incredibly trying part of her short life.  I'm not going to diminish that.  But the narrative you're pushing is that he didn't sexually assault a woman in his dorm along with Appling, or that there's "nuance" to what happened, and I'm categorically not going to accept that as "let's agree to disagree".  

Number 7

May 9th, 2022 at 8:19 PM ^

He played for Michigan for too long, in retrospect -- although much of it was because he was given due process and eventually found guilty, for what it is worth.  His college career ended before the Ohio State game (and crappy bowl game that year), although Hoke was less-than-forthcoming about the reasons.

bronxblue

May 9th, 2022 at 2:54 PM ^

Sure, but this stuff has been talked about regarding Payne and Appling since the 2010s and every time it comes up these same defenses are brought out.  And it's naturally going to come up when a guy dies due to a shooting outside his home at 1:30 am.  

I also won't get into the discussion of "nuance" but I do think we hold sexual assault victims to an incredibly high bar for trying to "stop" an assault, especially when said assaulters are two big-ass college basketball players who've cornered you in a room.  

WindyCityBlue

May 9th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^

Then you should know the score.  I don't know what you expect.

It would like me going to RCMB to defend the character of Juwan Howard.  Yet 99% of the RCMB rags on him for having kids with multiple partners and thinks he's a thug.  No sense trying to convince all the Sparty racists on the RCMB.  

Maison Bleue

May 9th, 2022 at 1:09 PM ^

Did I write that? 

My point is that you seem to want everyone here to find nuance in Payne's situation(even though he was on record essentially admitting a very bad thing happened that night). Yet, you can't see it in the Howard situation(i.e. He slapped a coach that was attacking and pushing his players in front of him).

And, guess what? Most on this board would admit that what Howard did was absolutely wrong, and a lot of people here were calling for his firing.