Football team culture? The Daily isn't doing Michigan any favors.

Submitted by I'mTheStig on December 7th, 2022 at 10:10 AM

With high profile things such as Smith's gun charges and All going scorched earth on the way out the door, there's been lots of debate on the interwebs about the culture of the program.  I was kinda surprised to see this from the Daily

Among all things Michigan that I'm proud of, I've been proud of the Daily and the (perceived I guess) standard its upheld over the years as the longest running college newspaper.  I hope this tabloid take is an isolated incident -- but this is also the paper that gave us Drew Sharp (hmmm).  Regarding the "culture" discussion however, this certainly doesn't do the University any favors.

Where there's smoke there's fire... but out of the Edwards, Smith, Simpson, Pearson examples cited, I think Pearson's is the only one which holds water -- and the only thing Warde is, ahem, guilty of is potentially waiting too long to get all the facts to make and informed decision about one's employment.

My posting history clearly illustrates I'm not a shill for Michigan (#BoKnew)... just as many others in here are not.  But the author of this piece is conflating accountability for sensationalism.

BlueTimesTwo

December 7th, 2022 at 12:01 PM ^

I had also heard that the original report from the officer on the scene stated he was going 35-40, and then it was revised to 50 "upon further investigation."  50 in a 25 is not good, but if you say that you have never gone 10-15 over the posted speed limit, I would find it hard to believe you.  Speeding is very common, and if this is one of those areas that are semi-residential like FauxMo said (i.e. not seeing a lot of foot traffic or parked cars obstructing the view), then I am definitely in camp nothingburger.

I am also unfazed by the gun charge.  If he was heading to a range to practice, then that amount of ammo is nothing extraordinary.  In fact, I hope that he is practicing regularly if he intends to carry.  It also sounds like the gun was not loaded (or not known to be loaded, based on the latest reports).  He jumped through the necessary hoops to get the license and was not committing any kind of violent or dangerous act.  He will probably plead down to some infraction or lesser charge by not having the paperwork in hand, and move on.  Hopefully the process has had a significant impact on him and he will be a responsible gun owner.

Yes, I probably would initially be more skeptical about hearing such a report regarding an OSU or MSU player, but based on my understanding of the facts I wouldn't be upset if they were not suspended either.

stephenrjking

December 7th, 2022 at 12:09 PM ^

Ok, are you talking about the boulevard portion of King George north of Eisenhower going toward Packard? Or are you talking about the narrower section south of Eisenhower?

The reports said that the officer encountered him at Lockridge, which is south of Eisenhower, more of a conventional residential street, and relevantly not a through-way that you can get to from somewhere else. So that would not suggest that he was coming from another street where speeds were higher and got distracted and let his speed get away from him; he'd have to accelerate to that speed from a residence within the neighborhood.

I don't know if this is a radar speed or an estimate. That can change interpretations a bit. 

I haven't driven on King George in quite some time, but my recollection is that the boulevard portion does indeed seem to invite quicker speeds. So does the wide section of Stone School just a bit east of there, a place where I once was tagged with what I believe to this day, 25 years later, was a spurious ticket for violating a school bus stop-arm. 

FauxMo

December 7th, 2022 at 1:04 PM ^

My guess is that he was actually heading north on King George but was south of Eisenhower. Lockridge is a "J-Shaped" street that empties out onto both King George (just south of Eisenhower) and Eisenhower (actually, a service drive off Eisenhower). I can safely say that anyone who approaches 50 mph on Lockridge will get in an accident before hitting that speed. The street is very narrow and has a hard 90 degree turn.

So, if I had to guess, he was probably visiting someone in one of the apartment/condo complexes to the far south of King George (or perhaps lives there himself) where the street ends (effectively at I-94) and was heading north down King George out of the neighborhood. There is a 4-way stop in the middle of that stretch of King George, and once past that the street opens up before Lockridge and is very wide and empty (by the GTCC country club/golf course there). King George north of Eisenhower used to get really high speeds, but they put speed humps in there some years back. Going 50 there now would be virtually impossible, and would also put you well away from Lockridge. 

dragonchild

December 7th, 2022 at 11:26 AM ^

I've done 50 in a 25.  Regularly.  Residential area near a school with a winding road, to boot.  String me up?

It was also with a graveyard on my side of the road at 5 in the morning.  I worked an early shift.  I only needed to watch my left and had plenty of visibility to dodge anything coming from that side, which. . . 5AM FFS.  As for my right, if anything's climbing over a graveyard wall at ass o'clock, I want to hit it at high speed.  On the way back, kids were around and I was on the side with the houses, so I drove with due caution.

Point is, things like "50 in a 25!!" and "ammo in his pocket!!!" are used to make things sound terrible, but often times they're not really.  Mazi shouldn't have done what he did, and maybe his situation was more dangerous than mine, but this was a "take the law seriously from now on, son" moment and that's it.  And that's what every involved grown-up is doing.

And GFY with this "you wouldn't be saying this if" shit.  All this tells me is that you're a homer hypocrite so you delude yourself into thinking everyone else is on your level to repress your conscience, but fact is you're wrong and the only thing you're entitled to is to publicly own your amorality.  You don't get to hallucinate actions of other people to put your shameful thoughts on imaginary moral even ground.

LSA91

December 7th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^

I don't know what the right penalty is for a dumb decision that didn't cause any harm but could have. I'm kind of reminded of Stonum driving on the suspended license, but I guess people could argue this is more serious or less serious than that.

I agree that ideally, Mazi should get the "right" penalty for his conduct, but I'm not sure what that penalty is.

UMForLife

December 7th, 2022 at 10:42 AM ^

So, every student who gets a traffic violation of over 25 mph is suspended. Right? And what is the university's policy on other students. On one hand we want athletes to be treated the same as other students when it comes to benefits but in this case we want them to be punished. 

Regarding other schools and how we feel about their students, yeah we crush them here. But, I have also seen many fair minded people here also who defend them. It is the nature of fandom and internet. Don't lump everyone into the same bucket. 

unWavering

December 7th, 2022 at 10:49 AM ^

Saying this as someone who fucking hates guns - I can pretty confidently say I wouldn't care at all if this were an OSU or MSU player.

He applied for - and received - a CCL.  He just didn't wait until the paperwork was processed.  Dumb? Yes. Worthy of a suspension?  In my opinion, no.  Makes no difference to me that he's driving around with a gun, much like thousands upon thousands of other people do. If he were pulled over with it a few weeks later than he was, no one would be talking about this.

Hotel Putingrad

December 7th, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^

I only skimmed the article but I think It's off the mark. Warde is definitely not the smoothest operator from a PR standpoint, but even if you were convinced those four particular incidents were connected in some vague thematic fashion, it's not exactly evidence of a win at all costs mentality. 

Also surprised that Howard slap wasn't included, though maybe it contradicts the author's desired narrative.

kejamder

December 7th, 2022 at 10:24 AM ^

I think we can all admit that the readers and commenters of this blog are generally unable to be objective about articles like this. It's all opinion, and a lot of it is formed on incomplete context (on both sides).

If the main point of the article is "players & Athletics get away with misbehavior because of winning", I disagree, but it's because I think that the winning part is irrelevant. Athletics is always under extreme scrutiny, and observers will always think they're getting away with stuff that non-athletes don't, even if that's not true. If the main point is instead "the AD should be explaining its decisions in more detail so that observers can better evaluate whether decisions were appropriate or not", I'm OK with that critique. 

OP, I'm not sure what your objection is - is it simply that someone is attacking the AD instead of getting on board? Or do you think the AD handled the non-Mel incidents in such a way that it's ridiculous to question them?

Honestly, I'm probably glad to see articles like this now and then, even if it goes beyond what I would agree with, because it reminds me that we're not State.

Hanniballs

December 7th, 2022 at 10:25 AM ^

My take is that I don't really agree with the article outside of the Pearson thing just like OP. However, I think it's a good thing that we have a student paper that's willing to make a statement against the status quo and put a critical argument out into the world that people can evaluate to make their own judgments about. I read the article and made an opinion about it--hard to make informed decisions without a critical perspective.

 

Edit: I also think my biggest problem with this article is that it points out problems without offering a solution too many times. Are universities expected to comprehensively address each point of a police report? What reasoning is acceptable for not suspending Smith a game? What would be acceptable for Edwards to say after that? The Simpson thing in particular I think is a huge reach because he did get suspended a game and saying he should've acted differently dismisses the the cultural phenomenon of young black men not feeling comfortable with police.

mGrowOld

December 7th, 2022 at 10:26 AM ^

First off the author does not specifically mention the word culture or take any direct shots at the football team specifically.  He references the entire athletic department focus on winning and includes two football team incidents (the Donovan antisemitic retweet and the Mazi Smith gun incident) along with the basketball team along with the hockey team and then closes with questioning why the Bo statue is still up today.   And while I dont necessarily draw the same conclusions that the author does I do think his points have some merit and worth discussion. 

One of the reasons the Michigan Daily has been and continues to be great is that it's NOT a shill for the University or its athletic department.  It tries to an independent news source (as much as they can) and I would hope that one element of the "Michigan Difference" is the ability to look at ourselves critically and objectively.

I dont agree with the author but I respect the balls it took to write this. 

bronxblue

December 7th, 2022 at 10:30 AM ^

Yeah, the fact they published this article and made the points they did is commendable even if you don't necessarily agree with them.  To say nothing of local papers generally (looking at you Lansing State Journal) being shills, student papers oftentimes don't try to rock the boat too much.  So credit to the Daily for doing this work and putting it out to the ether.

stephenrjking

December 7th, 2022 at 11:07 AM ^

This is a good point. Honestly, though I don't think it was intended, the title of this thread is clickbaity.

There's a pretty big difference between the "culture of the football team" (which involves the coaches but also is heavily affected by the actual players) and the "failures" of the athletic department, which is what the headline of the article actually shows on the front page of the Daily website.

It may or may not be fair, but it's a very different thing. A negative culture in the football team may be selfish guys playing for themselves, or an atmosphere of hostility or pressure or losing. It may or may not be a product of the coaching staff.

Failures of the athletic department, accurate or not, may or may not be related at all. 

The impression most of the players on the football team give is a good one. They like it at Michigan, want to be a part of it. It was even expressly said that 2020 got rid of some bad apples. 

But that doesn't mean that the athletic department hasn't been sloppy in some areas. And with the Mel situation, it unquestionably *was* sloppy. 

Wendyk5

December 7th, 2022 at 11:27 AM ^

He's not wrong in some of the points that he made: did the athletic department do enough to address transgressions and/or crimes committed by certain coaches and athletes, and are decisions being made on that front based on our collective principles of right and wrong or are they being made based on wins and losses. Those are legitimate questions. I didn't love his holier-than-thou tone but then again, I remember feeling like I had all the answers when I was in his shoes, and I'm sure my writing reflected that (I also wrote for The Daily). 

MilkSteak

December 7th, 2022 at 12:34 PM ^

Yeah I'm with you 100%. He's not inventing incidents and the ones that he brings up aren't trivial. Deciding to draw a line between them all is up to you.

The fact that he's at the Daily and writing this is a good thing! No program, group of people, etc should be off limits for questioning, particularly when there's actually something to question them about.

 

bronxblue

December 7th, 2022 at 10:28 AM ^

I'm glad the Daily wrote this article because student newspapers shouldn't be afraid to hold powerful institutions responsible but the Pearson stuff was the only stuff that really makes me question what Warde was doing.  The Smith situation wasn't great and I don't love how they sort of threw their hands up as if it was nothing when there was clearly a bit more to the story than they let on but it's still not some massive cover-up.  But Warde wanting to renew Pearson after everything came out and seemingly trying to bury/ignore the report was a really bad sign.  

kehnonymous

December 7th, 2022 at 12:12 PM ^

I 90% agree with you, except to say that this is becoming a pattern with Warde M - anything that could be bad PR, he sits on it and seems to hope that it doesn't become a story, which is if nothing else really forking dumb when you're the head of a world-famous brand.  If you want to say that most of these were nothingburgers, sure fine maybe, but time and again his pattern of obfuscation and reacting, not pro-acting, to the inevitable Freep article makes them look worse than they really are and when (not if) there's a scandal legitimately worse than the Pearson report, his likely non-handling of it is going to make us look really bad.

Obviously I have no clue what goes on or what he does behind the scenes so I can't comment on that, but I can comment as a member of the viewing public with a vested interest in my university not dragging itself through the mud and from that vantage point, Warde Manuel's pattern of behavior greatly concerns me for when proverbial rubber really does meet the proverbial road.

bronxblue

December 7th, 2022 at 4:05 PM ^

Oh, I agree about Warde seemingly having a pattern of trying to dismiss bad things without addressing them.  I think the Smith situation was handled poorly by the AD even if it does wind up being nothing more than a slap on the wrist for what amounts to a paperwork issue.  But with how he handled the Pearson situation I'd be fine if he got shitcanned; had people not leaked that report there's a non-zero chance Pearson is still the coach and that's just wrong.  So yeah, I'm not a fan of Warde in the slightest right now even if the way he handled some of these cases is pretty bog-standard for an athletic department head, sadly.

the Glove

December 7th, 2022 at 10:29 AM ^

The more successful this team is the more people are going to try to find stories to bring them down. If you haven't noticed on the inner webs people love to hate on Michigan. Avoid posting links to these people.

bronxblue

December 7th, 2022 at 10:41 AM ^

This was a student newspaper highlighting some (perceived) missteps by the AD.  This isn't "hating" even if you disagree with the conclusions they came to - Edwards did retweet an anti-Semitic tweet, Pearson was nearly retained as coach despite a scathing report, Simpson was involved in a crash in the Warde Manuel's son's car and lied about his identification, Mazi Smith was arrested and charged with a felony, etc.  I don't think all of those were handled poorly by any means but this isn't some MSU or OSU blog making mountains out of molehills.  And frankly, it's a good sign for the school that the student paper is capable of writing an article like this.

TeslaRedVictorBlue

December 7th, 2022 at 10:35 AM ^

Someone should spend some time - their time of course, not mine - and assess across all Power 5 universities, how many incidents, and of what type, have they been, and then provide that analysis. The Michigan student body at large may have high standards for conduct, but its unclear to me how/where those standards apply to the athletic department, and given the excessively financial nature of the AD and how it operates, its pretty reasonable to expect some things not to run to the highest of standards. But, the question is... how does it compare to elsewhere?

Is it about academics? Are we comparing ourselves to Stanford, NW, and Notre Dame? Haven't they all had issues too? 

I just don't know what standard the AD is being held to?... other than winning without overt cheating/legal issues. Maybe I'm old, but this feels a bit like politics now where if you're not 1000% in the pool and don't feel that everyone isn't doing enough, then you're part of the problem.

I don't think people enjoying Michigan's resurgence in football should feel guilty about it. But it is a very Michigan thing to expect it and of course, someone always has to play that role.

BlueMk1690

December 7th, 2022 at 10:43 AM ^

I don't really care either way to be honest. The reality, which you can bemoan, accept or appreciate, is that the football program is its own thing and as such is more an 'associated entity' as far as the university itself is concerned than a real part of it. The Athletic Department, and the football part of it in particular, isn't just a department like say the Linguistics Department, it's a big-time business in its own right.

And as such a business Michigan football competes in an industry with its own rules and requirements that are very different from academia. There's always going to be an uneasy relationship between an academic institution and what is now quickly and more or less openly becoming a professional sports business.

But there's a reason the university isn't running away from it, distancing itself, taking measures to end it. And that reason is that the university, beyond lofty mission statements etc., likes money as much as anyone else does. And Michigan football is a money-making machine. The university as such thus needs to ensure this machine runs as smoothly and efficiently as possible - or get out of that industry. If the university wants to have a nationally successful, elite level football team then this requires an approach in line with general industry expectations and standards, not the views of the Michigan Daily.

To put it bluntly, I don't see anything in Mazi Smith's conduct that would disqualify him from playing for Michigan football or justify harming Michigan football's prospects. Whether he is a model citizen or not, is completely irrelevant in that context.

ak47

December 7th, 2022 at 10:43 AM ^

I don't agree with all the takes but its a completely fair article. Warde has failed in a lot of ways when it comes to accountability and culture and when winning is the most the important time to point that out because it does tend to get buried.

I was a Warde defender in terms of how he has handled the big ten, contract negotioations, etc. but he failed in his most important job when it came to the pearson incident and the complete lack of willingness to address Bo's legacy.

grumbler

December 7th, 2022 at 5:28 PM ^

It is not at all a "completely fair" article.  It is chockablock full of made-up motivations attributed to others.  Why is Bo's statue on the grounds?  "Because he was a goddamn winner."  No other reason, according to this "completely fair" article.  And using Matt Schembechler's thoroughly discredited claims as "corroboration" that  the "chilling accusations" against Bo were true should never have gotten past an editor.  And making quotes up and then attributing it to "they said" is not even remotely fair or even ethical.  

The facts as stated are fine.  Questions are fine.  Making up motivations and then assigning them in ways that make your point sound more virtuous isn't fine.  And certainly not "completely fair."

I don't blame the author, though.  He's just trying to learn his craft, and make some waves.  I blame the editor, for not recognizing the largely fictional attributions of motive and taking them out of the story before it was published.

grumbler

December 9th, 2022 at 10:59 PM ^

Because he molded thousands of young men into better men?  

No one likes getting a finger pushed up their butt to detect prostate problems, but it was a standard part of physicals in those days.  Bo didn't like it either, but he understood that it was necessary.  It is not at all damming that he told players who came to him and told him that the doctor put his finger in their butts to "toughen up," because he knew they were going to get that finger at every physical from then on.

One can certainly argue that he should have been more aware of just how often the digital exam was being done unnecessarily, but the complaints he got amounted to about one per year, and it isn't a topic anyone would really feel comfortable brining up in a group setting where the frequency would become more obvious.

Bo had his faults, but being more loyal to some doctor than to his players was not one of them.  His loyalty to his players was legendary.

Bando Calrissian

December 7th, 2022 at 10:45 AM ^

The extent to which people on this site want any and all criticism of Michigan to simply not exist is kind of hysterical. This isn't about winning and losing. It's about right and wrong.

The university, the athletic department, the people they hire, none are beyond reproach. We've seen tons of examples of this in the past few years, from Schlissel and Martin Philbert to Dr. Anderson and Bo and Mel Pearson. Across the board. Over and over again. They've lost the privilege of assuming innocence and their best intentions.

The University of Michigan is more rotten than we thought, sorry to say, even though it's spent more than a century trying to project as a paragon of virtue. It fails. Just like any other institution. And it fails a lot. The Daily shouldn't be faulted for trying to stand up against that, even imperfectly.

Consider this: Is Leaders and Best is a statement of fact, or a constant and aspirational goal? I know my answer to that question has changed in the past few years.

BlueMk1690

December 7th, 2022 at 12:27 PM ^

It's easy to espouse moral absolutism and sanctimony especially as a young student journalist where your notions of right and wrong have yet to pass many tests imposed by life experience.

In the real world things tend to be more complicated, and an institution's way of dealing with situations in which there's multiple stakeholders and different perspectives are by default not going to please everyone involved or every onlooking outsider. Sometimes the balance is hard to find, sometimes it's missed.

But moral outrage-driven polemics are unfair to everyone involved and not the hallmark of good journalism.