Discussion about the defensive game plan against Ohio State
I am curious how the masses here at Mgoblog really feel about Don Brown. It is obvious now that his game plan for OSU wasn't very effective and hasn't been 2 years running. I saw people calling for his firing mid game and others blindly defending him. Since we aren't getting a UFR and the game recap was just an acknowledgement that the game happened instead of analysis, I was hoping we could discuss it ourselves. I am also hopeful we can be adults about it and be rational instead of the usual message board pissing contests.
From my perspective, Don Brown was stuck between a rock and hard place. Ohio State was going to just grind it down our throat all game if we didn't commit significant resources to stopping the run. We've lamented how our DT's are extremely light and adequate at best this year, and Ohio State is built for power running. It also seemed we played a lot of zone because of this, and most likely as a response to last year as well. In my layman's perspective, the players didn't do very well executing the zone. Our senior safety kept letting people behind him, bad communication let WR's run free up the sidleine, etc. Maybe everyone was drilled all week to watch out for the run and the scramble that they got distracted when the lights came on. Maybe they just played very bad that day. Maybe they were asked to do too much. I don't know, I'm just a fan who watches on my couch.
So what say you fine people about all this? Does Don Brown have an OSU problem? I tend not to think so, as his first two years the defense did very well. He might have a Ryan Day problem, but I'm not entirely sold on that either. Last year he admitted that he thought we had the athletes to match up and run with them. He was wrong in a few critical spots. Maybe that doesn't go as it did if he schemes more instead of playing it straight. I think this year he had to compensate for deficiencies in the personnel and OSU exploited it. Maybe I'm trying to be too optimistic. I would appreciate your thoughts.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:46 PM ^
The part about a special game-plan isn’t necessarily accurate. OSU’s run game was identical to what they ran all season. OSU had some pass-concepts to counter what Michigan likes to do on D, but that’s not any different than what any O does every week against a new team.
If it makes you feel better, Michigan got a big number hung on them this year because your offense scored enough to keep OSU’s foot on the gas 90% of the game. Most other games this year when the offense had 35 points after the first drive of the second half, the starters were going to the bench.
I think Michigan just had a pretty glaring weakness that happened to line up with OSU’s core strength. Checkmate.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:24 PM ^
I hate your stupid avatar and stupid username.
But this post is spot on. Michigan's offense pushed OSU to keep scoring, so they did. Michigan's defense was weak where OSU was strong, and JK Dobbins is a terrifying, NFL-ready, best-I've-ever-watched-at-OSU RB. Brown had to pick between using his safeties in run support (which worked when he did it) or protecting against the big play (which worked when he did it) but couldn't do both, and OSU just took what Brown had to give. Metellus starts making tackles for no gain? OSU goes deep to whatever freshman WR they have now that's better than our #3 CB. Playing center field and cover one? Run Dobbins for 8-40 yards.
There is no defense or scheme that can cover all of your deficiencies. Brown's defense was, clearly and from game one, built to stop OSU. It still failed. If people want to blame the coaches for the stupid mistakes and penalties--that's valid (as long as you acknowledge the players have some responsibility there too). But Michigan just ran into an unstoppable death machine that, if they keep their focus (which they most certainly did against Michigan) they will win all of their games this year. I don't think anyone else in the country is particularly close.
Here's the good news:
- We still have little data on how good Ryan Day is--this team was built and developed by Meyer. Pretending year one (and even year two) success is predictive silly--and I submit Brady Hoke and Gene Chizik as clear evidence.
- OSU is not likely to be as good next year, and, at some point, they will have a game against us where things don't go their way (like the Dobbins fumble that bounced right back to him, or our stupid offsides/shoe games)
There is no DC in the country that can stop this team. PSU's game was a mirage: OSU was unfocused and the turnovers were mostly dumb luck. OSU prepares all year for Michigan, so getting an unfocused performance is very unlikely.
I predict OSU beats LSU in the MNC game by a double-digit margin.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:28 PM ^
Context is everything. But in today's world, we don't look at no stinkin' context.
But hey, lets look at context! Wisconsin punished a 3-3-5 attempt with a LB in the middle. Nobody knows what that was, but it was a failed formation that was never used again (Glasgow on the line). Dwumfour returning from injury allowed the DL to play much better after UW. Also, McGrone was a distinct upgrade in the middle over Ross after UW. Also, UM's offense couldn't spell its own name. At some point in today's game, your offense has to help.
PSU was an officiating shit show in the first half. You know it, too, because you even complained about it. The second half against PSU was complete defensive domination. Perhaps the offense can do a little more to help?
OSU, again, proved a devastating lack of personnel at DT. The offense was also shooting its own foot. Mistakes against CFB's death stars are death. The schemes were good, but Fields had all day to throw. Shea also had all day to throw, but the offense was shooting its own foot. Perhaps the offense can stop stopping itself and give the defense a break?
Brown is fine, he's an outstanding DC. He needs better players at DT and more depth at CB (fair to criticize his 'crootin). He also needs the offense to mature into a scheme and stop killing itself. Bama and Auburn both have excellent defenses, and they just scorched each other for 93 points. CFB is dominated by offense, and nothing you say will change that.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:04 AM ^
read seth's 'sharpies' post and his comments in that post on the defensive plan/play calling and you will know pretty much all you need. a relevant part is here:
In reply to Good stuff. I'd like to see… by Tecumseh
December 5th, 2019 at 9:59 AM ^
Ohio State's offense was just depressingly able. JK Dobbins didn't miss a cut and Michigan just didn't have the DTs to give him zero places to go. If Michigan tried to fill with a linebacker's run blitz the crossing routes reopened. And then Fields--after not being able to throw accurately to his sideline--lays dimes to Olave and the new 5-star kid. No NFL defense would have survived those passes. They could have beaten Dobbins though because you can't do to an NFL DT what you can do to Carlo Kemp. Also Justin Fields escaped some insane situations that any other Big Ten QB goes down on.
Also there was some bullshit and dumb shit. Gray got picked to give up a long conversion--that's just the refs missing a penalty AND it's Gray not deserving one because after his pick he runs the wrong way instead of doing the thing that shows you're obviously being impeded by the guy blocking you. They jumped offsides on a punt. I thought this was the normal number of mistakes for a college team. You can't afford to make ANY if you're going to keep up with Ohio State unless you have the horses to keep up with Ohio State.
You noted I had shields on three of their players, and Olave was on the border. Shields change the game. They're like star offensive players in basketball: if there's one you change your defense and let other guys be open to shut him down. If there's two you'd better have two really good defenders and hopefully there's someone shitty you can sag off. If there's three they're going to get theirs and you just try to make it hard. If there's four, well, nobody stopped that Derrick&Nik&Caris&Glenn&Mitch team all year. And then you add that our DL was a bit of a mismatch with their OL. Not a huge mismatch, but the difference between Carlo Kemp and how Penn State shut down OSU's favorite run with their very good nose tackle was stark. So Michigan was in a position where they had to unsound shit to:
- Buttress their small defensive line against doubles
- Keep safety help over Olave
- Contain Justin Fields as a runner
- Box in JK Dobbins so he doesn't get loose in space
- Bracket KJ Hill who's the fastest player in college football this year
- Pressure Fields before he can unleash the dragon
We're not alone in this. Ohio State's talent advantages were hell for every team they played this year. They could do their normal stuff and get 6-7 yards per play with it, and when Michigan started doing weird stuff that left major exploitable stresses that aren't hard to find. Like on the Olave TD, they catch Michigan in trap coverage, which means Metellus has to be overhang on both the tight end and Olave, and Metellus stays a beat too long over the tight end's vertical route. Against almost any other Big Ten receiver this year--including Austin Mack and Binjimen Victor--Metellus can get away with that. Metellus has been a great player for us all year but you can't ask him to do things only elite NFL safeties do. I don't know if Jordan Fuller, OSU's deep safety, whom Michigan was recruiting just as hard, could make that play. When Dax Hill is coached up I think maybe he can get away with that. It'll be close.
I think if they Clemson or another team with great DTs you could see OSU's offense slowed. It's what happened here in 2017, when Michigan could have Hurst just beat double-teams and sow havoc, and the OLBs just had to set an edge. There was a big run in this game by Dobbins where Khaleke dove inside a tight end, because they've been playing to spill all year, and that's a thing you do if you don't have the horses inside to give them some extra help. It puts more stress on your safeties and linebackers to make great plays, especially if it's Dobbins you're trying to beat to an edge. In 2017 Khaleke never would have to dive inside the TE, because just setting up outside of him would mean the back has to cut into where Hurst is fucking shit up.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:09 AM ^
Thank you, I didn't read that and I guess I should have. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^
Thanks for posting this.
I've got to disagree on the long TD though. Maybe I'm thinking of a different play? But on the long TD over Metellus' head, they're clearly playing Cover 2 are they not? The CB drops to the flat (there's a RB there on a flare), he's out of it immediately. I don't see where the bracket is. Glasgow is carrying the TE, but he's in decent shape and at least there's a man covering that guy. Metellus is the only coverage option for the deep-breaking WR, and he's got to get on him faster.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:12 AM ^
On the pick play Gray ran into Hudson because Hudson was too close to the line given he is covering the inside guy.
Three things murdered us in this game. DT's, Hudson and Mettellus. Mettellus has always murdered us and we knew the DTs would struggle. Hudson, a senior just had a bad game and was uncharacteristic with his mistakes.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:32 AM ^
With the preface that I am not a football expert(clearly), it has seemed to that for the last two years the answer to "what went wrong" has involved some variety of Mettellus misdeed at a remarkably high clip.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:16 PM ^
I felt that way about Hudson as well, but they are 100x better than i will ever be at football.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:19 AM ^
Great summary sir. I hadn't got around to that yet. It kind of confirms what my layman's eyes were seeing. Defense started doing unsound things to cover for the DTs and just got burned too many times by better athletes.
My hope is this has taught Brown he has to get real DTs to go with his SDE types. This is why I want to see us play Auburn or Alabama, because they are going to try to do the exact same thing OSU did. Does Brown figure out something else, or does he get another data point that says we need real NT/DT types.
I'm ambivalent on Brown. I think he is a very good D coordinator, who like RichRod did early in his career, does more with less. But also like RichRod seems resigned to recruiting the "less", which he doesn't have to do at Michigan.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:22 AM ^
all credit to seth, who is extraordinarily good at his chosen profession.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:08 AM ^
Even when we stopped their run game they were still falling forward for 3 or 4 yards.
We didn't have the size or depth in our front 7 this season to do much about it. With Danna, Uche, Hudson, and Glasgow all gone, what happens with Kemp and Paye is really important for this defense going forward. I think Paye likely stays, Kemp likely leaves. We need 4 good DTs again. Dwumfour and Hinton are 2 and complement each other. Need Smith to be redy and possibly a grad transfer or next season will look like more of that same vs OSU. OSU loses a guard, but are replacing him with a 5 star player who played some this season. Wyatt Davis is a beast, and their center Meyers is too.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:10 AM ^
In my personal life I'm not a masochist in any way, but when it comes to my Wolverines I seem to revel in the pain.
Odd, that.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
come on, hatter. don't try to tell us mrs. hatter hasn't smacked you around (in a loving, life-affirming manner) from time to time....
December 5th, 2019 at 2:32 PM ^
I've just learned if I'm going to piss off Mrs. Carpetbagger, which I do, because it's funny enough to take the retaliation, be sure no sharp implements are within reach. The Fight/Flight instinct is strongly tuned to Fight for her.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:13 AM ^
I've tried to block that game from my memory, but one thing that jumped out to me was how unaggressive the defense was. It was a very basic 3-4 man rush, and an occassional delayed blitzer. I didn't see all those ultra aggressive blitz packages that Don loves so much. I was extremely surprised, especially given the fact that Fields had all day to sit in that pocket.
Don Brown went from Dr. Blitz to Dr. Bend But Dont Break. Unfortunately that defense broke after the first drive.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^
I don't think I remember it how you do. I recall us getting a decent amount of pressure and Fields escaping a lot. Some of their biggest plays came when he left a collapsing pocket and our safeties stopped paying attention to the receivers in their zone.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:37 PM ^
You remember slightly wrong. Fields had all day to throw, even when the rush got home. The times he rolled out were merely to buy time for someone to separate downfield. The UM DL did exactly what it had been doing all year - boa constrictor the QB while leaving no exit lane open. When Fields exited, it was normally a leisurely stroll out the back to the field side, just buying time. The difference between OSU's OL and every other OL is size and talent. It took longer for the pocket to squeeze in, but it was squeezing. Unfortunately, despite pretty good downfield coverage, the pocket wasn't tightened quick enough to matter.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:24 AM ^
You get aggressive with your blitzes, Fields picks you apart with quick passes to elite speedy receivers. OSU’s offense is very much “pick your poison,” if you don’t have the talent in the right places to slow them down without committing extra bodies. You commit extra bodies to rushing the passer, they exploit that vacated area.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^
I thought the game plan was fine against OSU given the makeup of our defense. However, when talking about coaching, I also think we should take a look at how the players executed that game plan.
Metellus let WRs behind him multiple times and OSU took advantage of a couple of those mistakes for huge chunk plays.
McGrone getting tangled up with the slot receiver on third and very long and letting Dobbins turn a dump off pass to the middle of the field into a long first down conversion was brutal. His late hit on Fields later in the game to give OSU an automatic first down hurt as well.
Hudson had multiple miscues in addition to the offsides penalty.
On a huge third down in the red zone, Paye seemed to stop mid play and turn back towards the center as Dobbins ran right by him for a touchdown.
On more occasions than I could count, the D just wasn't lined up or were scrambling when the ball was snapped, leading to easy yards for OSU
Untying Dobbins shoes for another first down.
The large number of inexplicable mental errors coupled with not being able to get lined up pre-snap reflects poorly on the coaching staff. While credit goes to the coaches for the game plan and getting more multiple on D throughout the year, the same can't be said for the repeated individual miscues of the players in big moments. Those miscues give the appearance of a poorly coached defensive unit.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:25 AM ^
Don't overthink this. We are small. For a program like UM playing in the BigTen one could say really, really small. Kentucky is a decent football team. Nowhere near UM's caliber and yet here is their 2-deep on the interior D-Line:
NT > Quinton Bohanna 6'4", 361 lbs; Marquan McCall 6'3", 365 lbs
DT > Calvin Taylor 6'9", 310 lbs; Abule Abadi-Fitzgerald 6'6", 302 lbs
That's freakin Kentucky! Not Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Florida or Georgia.... Kentucky!! and UM can't hold a candle to it. Good grief
December 5th, 2019 at 11:26 AM ^
"We've lamented how our DT's are extremely light"
I've asked this question several times and I've yet to see an answer: given our thin roster at a position of huge need, why on earth did Mazi Smith—who is listed at 6-3/305, the heaviest DL on the roster—see virtually no playing time this year?
Was he injured?
Was he not strong enough?
Was he unable to learn the defensive scheme?
Was his technique so miserably bad that it he was a liability to play even against Army, MTSU, Rutgers, and Illinois?
It's mystifying. I just hope to hell he isn't another transfer-in-waiting.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
Good question. We hear all the time that freshman DT's suck and take time from Brian. That could be part of it. I don't know enough about the nuances of playing on the d-line to dispute or confirm that. Maybe he was struggling with his assignments, maybe his technique was bad, maybe he needed the year to focus on academics. It would be a real shame to lose him, so I hope it was just a needed to get better issue.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:00 PM ^
"We hear all the time that freshman DT's suck and take time from Brian."
Yet somehow Ed Oliver started all 12 games at Houston as a pure freshman DT in 2016. In his very first game against OK, Oliver had 7 tackles, 5 solos, 2 TFLs, and 2 sacks.
Instead of getting Smith any PT, we had Ben Mason—with no prior experience—on the DL.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
Ed Oliver seemed to be a better than the average freshman. But your point still remains. The whole Ben Mason season arc was as illogical as anything I've seen. He didn't know anything about playing DT yet he stared 1, maybe 2 games, and then was back on offense mid way through the year. I guess Smith was an obvious redshirt to the coaches from the beginning, as he didn't even get his 4 games did he? If Hinton was gonna work his way into playing a good portion of the OSU game, he should have gotten all of Mason's snaps.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:30 AM ^
There has been so much enthusiastic debate over why we lost so bad to OSU and how we can beat them, and I hate to be a killjoy and ruin everything by simply revealing the definitive answers, but I think it is time:
1. OSU's team this year was so much better than ours that we needed them to make big mistakes or come out flat to win. They didn't make big mistakes and they came out hot.
2. OSU has been recruiting to an insane degree for several years and being #1 in the country will only help them with that.
3. We're in a period in which they and Alabama and Clemson are just way more talented than everyone else. No amount of "want-to" or gumption or history or "never-give-up-to-your-hated-rival" is going to change that. So we may want to cool our jets, sip a drink, hope for improvement next season, and know that this unhappy trend, like all college football trends, will someday pass.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:34 AM ^
Our D got shredded not because of a game plan, but rather that our DL lost badly to the OSU OL. OSU could have run all day on us. And when they decided to throw, Fields had a lot of time. The first two big passing plays were slow developing, one with the RB leaking out of the backfield well after our LBs had dropped deep into coverage.
I have a difficult time blaming our safeties on plays where Fields had several seconds to sit in the pocket or drift towards the sideline. DBs can't cover guys all day. Holes will open if the pass rush can't get home.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:41 AM ^
To me the Ohio State game boiled down to some pretty obvious flaws:
1. Our DTs are small and insufficient
2. Some of our most experienced players were horrible. Hudson, Mettelus, Kemp, Glasgow. All had awful games.
3. Glasgow is the equivalent to a AAAA player in baseball and couldn’t compete with that athleticism and brought almost no advantages. Couple him, Hudson and the lack of size in the interior and we were severely undersized to combat Ohio State, same situation with Wisconsin.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:00 PM ^
I think I agree with your take. I will admit that I couldn't scrutinize players that frequently, as I had a sick wife and kids so I was watching between playing nurse. So I can't debate your list of players who played bad outside of Metellus, he was noticeable even to me.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:50 AM ^
They have better players.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:51 AM ^
It is obvious now that his game plan for OSU wasn't very effective and hasn't been 2 years running.
I don't think it was obvious this year. He did what he could given the talent differential, the incredible number of offensive weapons OSU possesses (and the o-line to make it happen), and the lack of size and/or elite DTs. No ones holding OSU in the rivalry game with their best effort under 40 pts. Maybe a non-rival in the middle of the season can do that, but not The Game at the end of the year.
I mean UM is the #11 FEI defensive team. Clemson & Georgia are #1 and #3 respectively (OSU is #2) and I don't see them holding OSU under 40 pts. Before you jump down my throat I know both PSU and MSU held OSU under 40 pts, but that was in the middle of the season and they don't get the effort UM does. I bet if UM wasn't their rival and played the week before another big game like PSU did and OSU turned the ball over twice like they did against PSU they could too, but not in the given circumstances.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
I think it is obvious it wasn't very effective. They did score 56 points or whatever it was. I didn't say it wasn't a good game plan given the limitations on defense with how we matched up with OSU, but it wasn't effective in preventing them from doing offense.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
You can't accurately judge the game plan solely by the score. A perfect plan could still fail for various reasons.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:33 PM ^
What plan would have been better against OSU with the personnel we have? Play cover 0 and blitz all the time?
December 5th, 2019 at 3:06 PM ^
I think the most credible knock against Brown, which does not require much of an understanding of Xs and Os, is that Michigan finds itself so obviously undermanned at more than one position on defense. It's an 85 man roster, there should be at least Big10-average level players who are ready to play as backups at every position. That's the minimum.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:58 AM ^
Overthinking this stuff.
Did Greg Mattison suddenly improve when he left here to become their DC?
Put Don Brown at OSU with that roster and no one will say anything other than what a dynamite coach he is.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:10 PM ^
I think that is more and indictment of Schiano than anything. He had those same players and couldn't do shit with them. And Mattison's defense was getting shredded as well until we became totally one dimensional.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^
Don Brown needs to go ...
December 5th, 2019 at 12:05 PM ^
Can anyone remind me of the Recruiting efforts of Justin Rogers? He is the #1 Recruit in the state for 2020, a DT and is committed to Kentucky.
Is there a story behind this or did the kid want to go out of state?
Just wondering.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^
I thought I read something about a disconnect between what the coaches were recruiting him for and what he wanted to play, hence the Kentucky commit. But my memory is not what it used to be, so I could have made that up. :-)
December 5th, 2019 at 2:08 PM ^
Justin Rogers is following fellow Oak Park teammate Marquan McCall to UK. You may know that McCall is a HUUUGE NT weighing in over 360 lbs. Rogers wants to and will play DT at UK though many programs were recruiting him as an OL. He's having none of that. Imagine those 2 on our DL....
Also noteworthy that Steve Clinkscale from UK is recruiting really well in OH and MI. His success in Michigan is not limited to Oak Park either - also crushing it in Youngstown.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
Alabama gave up 35.5 points per game in their last four Championship games. You could swap Nick Saban for Don Brown and Ohio State would shred us. Why? 2 reasons. One, great offense beats great defense, and that OSU offense is Championship level. Two, recruiting, OSU had the horses and we didn't. No coordinator can take those players, against that offense, and shut it down. Best you can hope for is to hold them around 35.5 points, have an offense that can win a shootout, and win 2 out of 4. If you're expecting something better than that, then you're literally looking for someone better than the greatest coach in modern college football to be your DC. There's a huge gap between expectations and reality. However, if you believe the lack of recruiting is on Don Brown, than that is totally understandable, but "stopping OSU's offense" isn't a real option -- not the versions with Fields and Haskins anyway.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:10 PM ^
Both years, OSU's OL has dominated us up front. That's what needs to get figured out. If your DL can't set an edge, push the pocket or win most of their one on one matchups, you're not going to stop the opposing offense consistently. They tore us up with the pass game last year because Winovich and Gary were hurt and double teamed and the interior line was owned. This year, we couldn't set an edge and other than Hutchinson, everyone was dominated.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:11 PM ^
We couldn't set an edge because everyone was pinching in to help the DT's. That was a strategic play, at least how I understand it.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^
This is out there and won't be popular, but I can't stop thinking about getting Hoke back on this staff, perhaps a DL line coach. He recruited Ohio really good and it was his recruits that gave Michigan the best chance to Beat OSU. Maybe just a recruiting role for Hoke, but Don Brown is not getting the players we need to compete with OSU.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:25 PM ^
I had the same thought the other day. He was very good with the DL and on the recruiting trail. Would he want to come back is the bigger question.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:12 PM ^
He went back to SDSU as the DL coach, so probably?
I fully support this idea. He was the DL coach in 97.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:14 PM ^
We need to get a grad transfer DT. Recruiting strategy has not worked out because of high amounts of transfers. Staff needs to adapt to 2019. We are in the era of transfers, JUCO, transfer portal, 3 year players, players not playing bowl games, etc. Harbaugh needs to adjust or he will get left behind (has this already happened?)
December 5th, 2019 at 12:20 PM ^
A starting DT for Stanford entered the transfer portal last night. He would be a huge get.