Can we talk about the USA today article?
I didn’t see the original thread title or any of the comments before it was shut down. I’m assuming people were naming players.
We don’t have to do that when we have no evidence, but I think it’s a topic we should be able to discuss, particularly:
- the program’s response, including Harbaugh’s, and
- the university’s response.
It’s a touchy subject to say the least, but this is obviously bigger than football, and it involves the program we cheer for and support. We should be able to talk about it.
Seems like the mods already answered your question.
Somebody give OP something to do. Here's a coloring book:
https://www.crayola.com/featured/free-coloring-pages/
The mods shut it down because too many comments were victims blaming or defending the program.
Especially because of one post in particular that wrote about ten bullets defending the program, the police investigators, victim blaming, accusing USA of bad reporting, and more, after only one quick comment about it being such a tragedy. That disgusting post should sound familiar Cam?
Of course they can’t prosecute when one of the drugged victims is dead and the other refuses to cooperate. Most women and girls who are raped don’t want to cooperate. Especially when it occurs with a popular hs or college athlete or program. That is the saddest and most disgusting part. The rush to judgment against the victim.
Pointing out the deficienes in the evidence isn't rushing to judgement against the victim. It seems you're dissatisifed with the University's response. Why?
I just don't think talking about it so fresh is really particularly helpful. It is an awful, awful story. It is clearly awful for this young woman. It is awful for her mother. It is awful that it's possible that the young men were extremely intoxicated as well and regret whatever took place also. It is awful that these types of inebriated situations have essentially become normalized for college students, as just they way things are and sometimes, "should be" as part of some kind of right of adult passage. It is awful that coaches are often put in a position of having to play arbitrator of things that are way, way above their pay grade.
For now it is just awful. I think any valuable discussion about may come after people can digest it a bit more.
For now it is just awful. I think any valuable discussion about may come after people can digest it a bit more.
Love this post and only disagree that posts like yours aren't valuable now. By briefly acknowledging the college partying culture, hopefully, the very small date rape subset of it, and how devastating the impact was for all parties involved you succinctly summed up what many of us are thinking. We as a society have to do more and I think it's great that the moms are allowing a respectful discussion to proceed.
It would be great to match the passion we have as Michigan football fans with the passion to try and mitigate this scourge. Mothers Against Drunk Drivers certainly had an impact on our legal system and culture. I'm sure this poor mother is fueled by a similar drive, in honor of her late daughter.
"It is awful that it's possible that the young men were extremely intoxicated as well and regret whatever took place as much as she did."
I don't think the regret that they may feel can possibly be comparable to what she felt.
I am not saying any regret they gave is par with what she felt, I am simply saying that the facts are not clear. Young adults get WASTED. More times that I like to admit in those days I woke up without much of the faintest idea what happened in the last 3 hours before passing out. They might have been black out drunk too. Now I am not dismissing the possibility that she may have been drugged, but I have seen research and reports that such incidents are very rare. This article talks about a dark liquor. I mean if that is straight Jack or Jim it does not take much and 18-20 years don’t know better.
There is this case and then the broader discussion about the college life. The facts are unfortunately unclear here.
But seriously the more I hear about stuff like this and like the Penn State hazing death the more uncomfortable I feel about my kids going to a big university.
(Edit - I see my original post said they might regret it “as much as she did.” I did not mean to say that, that is not a fair statement and I changed it).
Why are your only comments now only on the side of pointing out the deficiencies of the case and defending the program? What a waste of white space. Why not discuss what can be and should be done differently (other than the victim in this case doing all the right things to report to the authorities right away despite her difficulties remembering anything because she was roofied) to address this rape culture problem.
"Why not discuss what can be and should be done differently"
I have now asked three times what should have been done differently. Nobody seems able to give a coherent answer.
Why is asking the police and title 9 office to interview accused and associated teammates for context incoherent?
Title IX officer talked to the two athletes (witnesses?) still on campus. The accused was no longer on campus, and the Title IX officer was limited in what he/she could do in that case. Even the AA police department would have been limited in what they could do if the accused had left the state.
They may have talked informally, which I should have acknowledged, but that is not the same as a formal investigation:
"The police would never try to question the three players or anyone else in the football program about the incident and possible video evidence. The school would decline to launch a formal investigation and never speak to the athlete accused of the assault, who had transferred to another university. No one would talk to a fourth player, who told USA TODAY he had been invited over that night but was turned away at the door by his teammates."
Also:
"Title IX investigations can result in disciplinary action by the school, including campus bans and enrollment restrictions even if the perpetrator no longer attends."
From the last part of the article:
Title IX investigator Andrea McDaniel interviewed the friend who was with Quinn and met with the two players still at Michigan, the letter said. She also “gathered information” from Dayton’s Title IX office. The letter does not indicate she spoke to anyone else, including the alleged perpetrator.
So, I am not what else the school could have done when the accused is longer on campus. I have served on the athletic committee at a state univ, and it is impossible to ignore any sexual assault claims and not fully investigate them these days. When such a claim is received, many alarm bells begin to ring, and eventually, several levels of the admin would get involved. Personal reputation risks are so great that not one would dare not to take them seriously. On the other hand, privacy laws have become so strict that school admins cannot share the results of their investigations. Police dept, I assume, is a different matter.
It wasn't your comment that did it for me, it was a response when someone started talking about personal responsibility regarding the victim's drug abuse. It was the direction the conversation was going.
I would like you, Cam, to acknowledge what happened is not justice.
I am still learning right now, but it seems the clearest answer is the changes made to Title IX in 2020 on the federal level are what's preventing the school from taking action.
What happened is not justice. That doesn't answer the question of whether and how the University was responsible for a failure of justice.
The only legitimate argument I've heard is that the Title IX coordinator should have interviewed the accused. Maybe. But if you're the Title IX coordinator and someone brings you an allegation from a deceased victim with no witnesses and no physical evidence about a student who no longer attends the university, it's not some scandal to conclude that the case isn't actionable, especially given the 2020 changes to the Title IX evidentiary and cross-examination standards.
The USA Today author is clearly insinuating that a cover-up occurred. The facts don't remotely bear that out, which is the point I've been trying to make.
The one thing I do condemn is Seney's claim that she couldn't get ahold of people at Dayton. That's absurd. Even if it were true, this is not a situation where you leave a couple messages and give up. If Seney failed to contact them or even failed to document her efforts to contact them, she should face serious repercussions.
I appreciate your new response about what could have been done, and hopefully what can be done in the future, rather than keep bringing us back to whether or not they did what they could do.
There is no scandal with respect to the University here.
But the more constructive discussion would be about what still needs to change. Like the DOE repealing De’Vos’ 2020 rules. I bet Harbaugh would have suspended the other players if he was allowed to.
They won’t like it, but you are 100% correct. I was thinking the same thing. It’s almost as if most people didn’t read the entire article. After Reading several posts on this topic, I would say there is a rush to judge the program and University, not the alleged victim.
Especially because if that person had read the article they would have noticed that most of the effects (the drug use, self-harm, etc.) developed after she was assaulted.
Thank you for acknowledging the comment and modding effectively.
Drug use started before with one of her friends saying a handful of times in their knowledge. No one definitively addressed the self harm other than giving the impression that it started after.
No. This really has nothing to do with the current Title IX. The conduct occurred prior to August 2020, so the current version of Title IX technically doesn’t apply (although UM can set up a system that uses the current system for older cases).
UM didn’t go forward because the “main” respondent left (and ain’t never coming back) and the two students who stayed (but certainly could have violated the policy for taking pictures etc.) didn’t say anything that would lead to them being found responsible (if they said, “I don’t recall” or flat out deny it, UM faces a particularly uphill battle in a case with a complainant who can’t rebut their statements … because she’s dead).
You have my personal email address. You can find me if you want assistance working through this. But the process, though conveyed to the world in the coldest way possible (likely to drive the story AND/OR to spark change to the systems that exist), seems to be correct (or mostly correct) on all fronts.
Cam, you didn’t just point out deficiencies. You said:
- Quinn acknowledged she may have consented.
- The friend who was
with Quinn told police she did not see any sexual assault.
When the truth is, Quinn said she wasn’t sure because she was drugged. You also legally cannot consent if under the influence and you definitely cannot consent when drugged.
And also the truth is the friend refused to cooperate as a witness (not stated by her but in high school and college football situations like these, victims are harassed and abused sometimes with even worse outcomes for the victim).
When the truth is, Quinn wasn’t sure because she was drugged
This is speculation. She thought she might have been drugged b/c of the circumstances, but wasn't sure. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know if she was drugged or had a drunken blackout. And yes, whether it's one or the other, it's wrong to take advantage of someone in that state. One cannot consent in that state. But your comment is not known to be factual.
in high school and college football situations like these, victims are harassed and abused sometimes with even worse outcomes for the victim
This is speculation. This is common, yes. We don't know that it happened here. It might be a reasonable speculation, but it's not a known fact, as you suggest.
This is a ridiculous response. Everything is alleged or speculation until proven. A good lawyer will unfortunately coach her to not be so self reflective and honest.
But even if not drugged you CAN NOT legally consent under the influence as you pointed out. Further, drugged based rapes are far too common and get too many ridiculous responses like this.
As far as the repercussions and the unwillingness of victims to go public, that is a well documented fact. We can’t prove it in this case, but that doesn’t require proof.
You don't know she was drugged. Nobody knows if she was drugged. You state, as a matter of fact, that she was drugged. Andrew says "you don't know if she was drugged and are stating that as fact" Then you say, "that's a ridiculous response". Must be nice to live in a world where 1+1=3
Her description says she was drugged. But everyone wants to prosecute this otherwise because she has some self doubt because she can’t remember clearly. Why cant she remember clearly? Because she was drugged. This isn’t logic 101 class.
The only facts were that they were all drinking their asses off. Just because she said she was doesn't mean she was. You think a 100lb girl doing multiple shots of hard liquor is going to be able to provide a 100% accurate assessment there? Multiple shots of hard liquor apparently doesn't impact her ability to remember? Let me get you your jump to conclusions mat.
What is wrong with you people! Only an asshole rapist has sex with a girl who is even slightly incoherent.
All I can say is I don't know what to do with this information yet. The only hope I had was that this institution learns and moves forward, but that does not seem to have happened. Was heartened by Jim's initial response, now mortified and disgusted by a complete systemic abdication. Not of "duty" but of humanity. Recalling the ways that he preaches about morality is making me feel nauseated.
*I am editing this to clarify that I was emotional when writing this because I admire Jim and hate the situation. I think the ire is more appropriately directed towards the larger authorities that didn't do their due diligence, I don't know yet how to feel about Jim's response.
What should the Univeristy have done differently?
Right should they have had their scholarships revoked with zero evidence that they did anything wrong? What’s the morality in that?
Investigate the situation with appropriate due diligence.
Feels like your beef should be with the PD.
It can be both, but you're right that the police don't seem to have done enough either.
The University Police may have done less than they should have in this case, but I’m sure we can all agree that there are places where a University’s sports programs are so powerful that there a certain degree of collusion can exist where efforts are made or avoided in order to protect the program. The death of this alleged victim may have been a convenient excuse for those in authority not to take things any further, but there is no legal reason why all the players who might have known something about what happened couldn’t have been questioned, if anyone really wanted answers about what happened. Unfortunately, this sounds like it could’ve been a situation where those in charge didn’t really want to know those answers.
The Title IX coordinator was contacted, the campus police were contacted, the local police were contacted, the prosecutors were contacted, the Dayton Title IX office was contacted, the victim's friends were contacted, the mother was contacted. The victim didn't file a police report and said it may have been consensual. There was no physical evidence. There were no corraborating witnesses.
What were they supposed to do? That's not rhetorical. I genuinely want to know what they should have done differently.
They didn't even investigate, they didn't interview the accused. If they had done the bare minimum my feelings would be different.
Who is "they"?
Specifically referring to the Title IX investigator Andrea McDaniel. But also police Detective Lee seems to have avoided interviewing accused or other teammates as well.
It's false to claim that McDaniel didn't investigate. As the article clearly states, she interviewed Quinn's friend, spoke with the players still at Michigan, discussed the allegations with Dayton, and engaged local police. You can disagree with her decision not to launch formal Title IX proceedings, but based on the available evidence, I don't seen how anyone could conclude that it was an unreasonable decision.
Why do you keep ignoring my point ? I didn't say she didn't investigate. I said she didn't investigate adequately by interviewing accused and teammates that may have contextual information. Basic due diligence. How is that so unreasonable?
The victim never "admitted" it may have been consensual. There is a difference between self doubt after being drugged and raped and consent.
Even if she "consented," she was unable to consent because of her mental state. Furthermore, if she said "no" or "stop" at any point during the act, she's retracting consent.
So unless that whole part of the story is totally made up, it was non-consensual.
Yes, this is of course true, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise. The word "admitted" was a poor word choice that's been corrected.
This is a very sad story.
However, based upon the USA Today reporting the the facts that have been presented, I am currently under the opinion that the police department and the University handled the situation appropriately.
When a witness passes away or is under the influence at the time of a potential crime, it is very difficult and in many cases impossible for authorities to move forward.
For example, they couldn't even get the drug dealer in this instance, because Fentanyl was not found in his supply.
The entire alleged event is sickening. I wish she had gone straight to the hospital and been tested for the date rape drug and rape in general. If you have that evidence then you get people talking. If you don’t have that it’s he said she said and who knows the truth
I wholeheartedly agree, first that these incidents are always sickening in all their circumstances, and secondly that I wish these were reported each and every time. Sadly, there are just so many victims that never bring these incidents to authorities, or by the time they are capable, too much time has passed. As a parent, my heart breaks for this mother to have watched her daughter suffer and slip away. As a fan of Michigan Football, I believe that while we all may wish the university and PD could have done more, they all likely did all they were capable of within current guidelines and legal advice. My own hope is that these guidelines can continue to evolve in a way that allows better investigations, while maintaining fairness.
Drugged/roofied is not under the influence.
For starters, they should have informed the Title IX office and AD at the player’s new university of an allegation so they can keep their students safe.
They would also possibly get sued into the stratosphere for that as some sort of libel or slander.
Warning another institution that someone who has not been convicted or charged with a crime . . . is a criminal.