Can we talk about the USA today article?
I didn’t see the original thread title or any of the comments before it was shut down. I’m assuming people were naming players.
We don’t have to do that when we have no evidence, but I think it’s a topic we should be able to discuss, particularly:
- the program’s response, including Harbaugh’s, and
- the university’s response.
It’s a touchy subject to say the least, but this is obviously bigger than football, and it involves the program we cheer for and support. We should be able to talk about it.
I'm disappointed there has been no discussion on the lack of resources available to the victims of trauma, sexual or otherwise. A nationwide institutional failing is the lack of mental health care availability, especially to what I consider the highly vulnerable adolescent/young adult population. These mental health resources can interrupt the downward spirals associated with trauma, and help give victims hope for the future and the tools to rebuild their lives.
Full disclosure: I have a daughter who is the victim of trauma, suffered from mental illness, and attempted to take her life. It's been a three year trek back from the abyss, including a nationwide search for appropriate and available care. We are blessed to have resources that most don't have, and a mom who is the most incredible advocate for her daughter I have ever seen. This care saved my daughter's life.
I can't say that care would have saved Quinn's life, but I can say that her story of trauma-induced illness is common, and I wish more care was available to more people. And maybe then I wouldn't have to see the sadness in her father's eyes, a man I've known professionally for two decades, but only learned the full backstory after reading the USA today article.
I have a question for folks that I genuinely don't know the answer to. Could Jim have just benched the players in question? I'm not saying that I think this is the right thing to do or not, I just don't have that information.
It continues to feel wrong to me that there were players accused of being present at the incident on the field against OSU, but I don't know what the possible responses could have been.
How do we know they weren't benched and it wasn't disclosed as a disciplinary benching?
How do we know if the players accused of being present at the house, knew about what took place? What if they were in a different room or passed out before the incident?
Also, the incident took place in 2018, why should they be benched for the last game of the season in 2022?
Why are you hung up on them playing in a game 3-4 years later?
We don't know what actually happened, of course, but as far as the witness-players' knowledge of what happened, we have this account:
In text messages to two friends in early 2019 and in her speech that April, Quinn described sitting on top of one of the men on a couch, topless, wondering why her shirt was across the room and trying to cover herself with her hands. She tried to get off, she said, but the man was holding her down. She then recalled being on the floor and him shoving her head onto his penis. She remembered saying “no” and “stop” over and over. Another man was holding up a phone with the flash on, she said.
Emphasis in last sentence is mine to make it clear the accusation is not just at one guy.
Yes, and I saw this originally. But there is a lot of grey area around who remembers what or if she remembers it correctly because of being drugged. I'm not trying to defend any of this, just saying the facts are so murky that we don't know who was present and witness to any of this. And that makes suspending/benching players almost impossible. Even if her recollection is correct, do they even know which player it was taking the picture?
I think Harbaugh was put in an impossible situation where punishment is definitely warranted but who to punish and why is much less clear.
Just to clear some things up:
- Your first point is a good question that I realize nobody can really answer
- I was referring to OSU game in 2021
- Jim learned of the allegations on Jan 21, 2021 so he could not have done anything before knowing
- If he knew he had several players remaining on the team that were involved in the alleged incident and still played them, that is what feels wrong to me
I'm still interested to know if anyone has knowledge about whether benching a player or having them fall out of the rotation as happens for football reasons all the time is permissible or if that would be considered punishment. I am asking because in many other situations, head football coaches have fairly dictatorial power over their rosters but I realize this is very murky.
Thing is, Harbaugh is already on record as having booted a player, and it wasn't some fourth-string walk-on fall guy -- it was a scholarship underclassman offensive tackle when the team was short on offensive tackles. It took the program years to recover from that, and I say that not as a complaint or accusation of folly, but with immense respect for Harbaugh paying a real price for integrity. But that was back in 2015 -- as discussed to death here, the rules have changed since then. He can now get the university itself in legal trouble for similar actions without a finding, but the victim never filed a complaint.
Yes, the LTT case looms over this in my mind as a decisively-taken action by the team that seems like, based on the title 9 changes, isn't possible in the same way today.
So why would he suspend the player for the last game of the 2021 season for something he found out 10 months before?
Maybe a player was disciplined internally or suspended for a different game. We don't know. But focusing on the OSU game is odd.
Sorry-- I didn't mean the OSU game specifically was the only one that would in theory merit a benching if that were even possible, I just cited the OSU game because that was written about in the article as the mother watching the player in question. You're right, it's not specific to the OSU game, them playing any game after Jim's knowledge of the situation is what doesn't sit right.
That's what I'm wondering. The Title IX changes be damned. If he really thought they were involved in something this heinous, there was probably a way of getting around the "no-discplinary action" rule. Maybe a vague suspension for "violation of team rules" or even a benching. Or if they slipped up for any reason, use that as a reason to dismiss them from the team. The coach can do what he wants and say its for whatever reason.
"The coach can do what he wants and say its for whatever reason."
This is how people lose their jobs, or lawsuits. Let's say he runs the player off and there's clear evidence it was because of them being witness to this incident, then what? The player can turn around and sue the university for being punished in direct violation of the Title IX rule that says they can't punish a player in this situation.
What if the players both say they were there, but didn't witness anything? Can you still punish them directly? It's a big can of worms. People also hate when coaches "do what they want and say it's for whatever reason". In fact, it's often a violation of some rule or law when they do that. So why would we want a coach who does that in this case?
The player can turn around and sue the university for being punished in direct violation of the Title IX rule that says they can't punish a player in this situation.
Sure, the player can sue, but I'm trying to guess how the player benefits here. I'm obviously not familiar with the details of Title IX, but unless there's something in black and white that says the disciplined player gets a few million dollars, then it's kinda hard to believe that an innocent witness wants the google-auto-complete for his name to include the word 'rape.'
If a player was kicked off the team for something Title IX explicitly says they can't be punished for, I wouldn't say it's a stretch they might sue the school. They could claim the university harmed them and their future earnings by kicking them off the team and it was in direct violation of Title IX. I'm not a lawyer but I would bet the university has to pay a settlement in that scenario.
sorry. a bit overboard. Football and sports only. I have to remind myself before I post
Not sure how I'm suppose to have an opinion on any of this with limited data. I typically like to have sufficient evidence before I come to conclusions. Social media has distorted this process for a lot of people.
Ready, fire, aim.
Just an incredibly sad story. I don't have enough facts (or know all aspects of the law here) to draw many other conclusions about this, but reading the story and seeing the photos of a young life ruined is rough.
Per the article, Quinn's inner circle on campus was aware of the suspected rape and further, saw her descend into a spiral of self-harm, heavy drinking and drug use, but didn't seem to know what to do, other than call her mother. If you have a friend engaging in these things, you need to make sure they get help. It seems that her inner circle, however unwittingly, let her down.
anyone find it odd the potential victim's mother went to a party to watch Michigan and Ohio State game? Seems she has also been open publicly about this event for some time, then to have one of your friends invite you to watch them play with other Michigan fans, isn't that an odd invitation, then to accept and actually watch the game?
if I had a daughter and I believed Michigan players raped her and that event also lead to her death, id try what I could to take the school down and move across the country not stay in am area where I see the block M every day.
It said this was the first game she had watched since it happened, so it sounded like she was avoiding them for the most part. At some point, she has to live her life out the world though. Half of the people at football parties don't even watch most of the game. I don't know her thinking, but it doesn't sound odd to me at all.
I would want to move as well, but she has at least one other child that lives in this area. Losing your child is the worst possible thing that could happen. I don't think that leaving all of your support group and moving away from your other children is helpful. Without knowing the family's circumstances, it's impossible to know their options or the ramifications of each.
As a Title IX investigator myself, I can say that this is about as tough as it gets. Without the victim’s participation in the process, even a preponderance of evidence (i.e. “You MOST LIKELY did something wrong) would be very challenging spot on which to land.
I would love to hear your opinion on whether the Title IX office did their due diligence, because to me the idea that nobody interviews anyone who was accused of being involved in the incident seems outrageous to me.
I look forward to hearing more from Fishbulb, too, because this is one of the very few posters on this thread that can contribute anything more than opinion. I think I know the answer, but I’ll defer.
Just a really sad case, such a beautiful young woman with all her life ahead of her.
If there was really wrongdoing, I hope justice is served.
At some point, society has to address the overriding narrative in these types of incidents - alcohol. The deification of getting inebriated leads to young people, in some senses at their least discerning age, engaging in behavior they would not have if sober. Our boys and girls need to understand that getting drunk and losing total control of your behaviors ofttimes have quite deleterious consequences. Alcohol lowers one's inhibitions, and in an aroused state, it just may make you more sexually aggressive and manipulative. It may also cause you to be less aware of choices you are making to engage in sexual behavior. The culture is the problem. And, until society stops promoting the drinking of alcohol as an enjoyable exercise, instead of the danger that it is, we will continue to see these murky and tragic situations occur.
I mean, we tried Prohibition once and all that did was give organized crime such immense political power we're still suffering through the aftermath almost a century later.
Humanity itself was a mistake. You can try to fix that, it's certainly worth trying, but you have to be smart about it. Smarter than you or I, at least.
Alcohol is certainly a dis-inhibitor, you're right a bout that. However, I believe actually acting on feelings of sexual aggression is deeply tied to a person's attitude towards women. Also in this case the allegation was that it was multiple people involved, one of whom was filming / photographing the incident, which seems a little too complex to attribute to intoxication.
Dragon, I'm not advocating for Prohibition, I'm advocating for de-emphasizing the alcohol based party lifestyle.
Denard, I would proffer that all involved were intoxicated. Futher, the voyeurism culture needs to be addressed, also.
No doubt alcohol was a factor, in lowering the guard of the victims and in giving (perhaps) a predator cover. If the victim was drugged, as suggested, that is another type of flaw in our culture that cuts deeper than use of alcohol.
Such a sad story that aspects of happen probably more often that we would all be comfortable with. Sorry for the Mother that even with meeting all the actions she wanted in her initial letter to JH were still not enough to ease her pain. Carefully reading the first part of the article and comparing with last it really does seem very hurtful to JH at end to send that letter to him after he had done everything she had asked for. In some ways it seems the investigatory process made it worse for her / delayed healing even with many people involved and following up.
What I take away from it is as parents and friends to help our loved ones when they are in trouble like this ... counseling and rehab in this case were never mentioned. We never know for sure until it is too late but seems there were multiple red flags here that she needed external help.
I was shocked to read about the prior cocaine use. She was so young. She did need help. It's a shame that so many other things piled onto her troubles. We all need to do better reaching the youth in our circles.
What's really sad to me is how we've got educational institutions and structures trying to investigate crimes, interview witnesses and gather evidence, etc. AT ALL, and still nobody on the surface of this rock sees any problem whatsoever with this stupid idea.
What we do have is a litany of pathetic, damning examples of university after university doing their utmost to look like they're actually doing something effectively but also cover their butts. It's all beyond dumb.
Here's an idea: Let universities and colleges stick to their core competence, namely educating students and doing research.
When it comes to crimes, involve municipal, state and federal police agencies, the DA and AG, etc. because their core competence is actually criminal apprehension, crime investigation, victim and witness interviews, evidence gathering and prosecution of offenders. They have exponentially more expertise, skills, resources and tools than universities do.
What we have now is a bunch of arrogant, incompetent bakers showing up at your door pretending to be plumbers to re-pipe your house.
And then you get people from the whole neighbored all offended, shocked and dismayed to see you and your family standing eyeballs deep in water and sewage.
If we want to eliminate 99.9% of all campus rape it actually very simple. Remove all alcohol from college campus's. I'm sorry but a DRUG that is capable of rendering human beings completely unaware and not in control of their physical or mental self should not be openly encouraged for use by young people living away from home for the first time. Every fucking time I hear about another one of these incidents the first detail I read is alcohol was involved. Like NO SHIT it was!! Its the fucking straw the stirs the date rape drink so to speak. Its the necessary catalyst that, if not present, this doesn't happen. Rapes will still happen, but they will be committed by rapists. People who are predisposed to violence and domination and get their fix by raping. People who would commit this act SOBER. In other words. Psychopaths.
Rapes are committed by people who rape.
I don't want to be disrespectful or come across rudely, but this post contains some key misinformation.
Alcohol does not turn sane people into raping psychopaths; one does not have to be a psychopath to rape. Rape is most frequently perpetrated by partners of female victims, and acquaintances of male victims-- making it highly unlikely that there are that many psychopaths out there.
Though it's absolutely true that alcohol can be used as a facilitator for rape, it's not exactly true that it's the cause. In fact, "in some cases, the desire to commit a sexual assault may actually cause alcohol consumption (e.g., when a man drinks alcohol before committing a sexual assault in order to justify his behavior)" (Source).
My interpretation is that this means the person making the choice to rape is the cause. The data also shows that drug/alcohol-facilitated rape makes up about half of the incidence of rape:
Results from the 2015 NISVS study found 11% of women have experienced alcohol or drug-facilitated forced penetration at some point in their lives, and 5.5% of men were made to penetrate someone else through alcohol/drug facilitation.
So you're not totally off base but rather I think the way it is presented is just reductive.
I encourage folks to take a look at some of the research here:
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics/statistics-depth
Interesting article for sure. I’ll stand by my point(except the 99.9.%, but I’d bet my IRA it would be over 75%) that removing booze from the equation would be the single biggest impact on campus rape. And it’s easy at an advanced age to forget just how fucking stupid blasted some of us got in those years. I know the only threesome I had in my life I have exactly zero memory of. And one of the girls I had no attraction to. Was I raped? I know sober I wouldn’t have touched one of them. We were all drinking together. Ugly Sue remembered something cuz I heard about it the next day from guys who knew her. I had to wear that like a dunce hat for years. Shame on all 3 of us but I know who I blame even all these years later. Ron Bacardi and ignorant youthfulness. It’s the one thing that if removed from the equation stops it from ever occurring I know that. Sober me never lets it start and I believe sober Sue would say the same. Especially since some weeks later I got the “I don’t really know what happened entirely but I’m so sorry” talk and although still angry I had to admit that I remembered none of it beyond falling onto a couch at their house. Good news. I have not drank to excess now 32 years later. 4 beer limit I’ve yet to break and no hard stuff. Based on the DUI’s, divorce’s and early deaths I’ve witnessed by people in my life it was a negative that I turned into a positive for sure. Shared the story with my daughter & son when they were college bound and they seemed to adopt a pretty damn cautious attitude toward alcohol. I just wish more young adults would see all the destruction alcohol unleashes in their world and treat it accordingly so we wouldn’t have to re live these stories again and again.
Just, ugh. This whole situation is sickening on all sides. I have a 15yo daughter and I'm terrified of sending her to college. Sheesh. RIP to the young lady.
I am glad that women are finally being heard when it comes to sexual assault. It's unbelievably difficult to come forward, and here's an example why: a friend of mine's daughter was raped by an Uber driver while she was intoxicated. It took 6 years to make its way through the court system and to trial. The defense attorney suggested that this was a consensual act. I don't know how my friend, the victim's father, didn't lunge across the table and kill that attorney. The victim spent 6 years waiting for justice and then had to relive the event all over again at trial, finally facing her rapist in what must've been the most excruciatingly painful moment in her life, second only to the rape itself. So I will never question why someone didn't come forward sooner, or at all. But if we're going to discuss this, we have to acknowledge that we have one story so far. And in seeking facts and the truth, I think the truth deserves more than one source. The truth could be way worse, for either side, or it could be exactly as reported. The only thing we know for sure is that something bad happened to this woman, her life ended tragically, and she deserved to be heard.
Read through this thread to find your response Wendy. Very well put.
Very well put. I think this is part of why I want to hear more informed opinions about the limited scope of investigation by both police and title IX office. To me, it seems like in order to get closer to the truth, one would have to hear from more than just two witnesses via an informal investigation when there is a perpetrator and a fourth witnessed that have been ignored by all authorities. There is also potentially video evidence here. It's necessary to investigate fully not just to protect the victims, but the accused as well.
That is a standard defense.
It used to be that DNA was going to be the capstone to a criminal conviction. Defense attorney's are smart and manipulative. Once DNA evidence is disclosed, the defense shifts to a consensual act where it comes down to, he said/she said. When it comes to, he said/she said, it can be very difficult to get beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is all so sad. In terms of recourse to the legal or disciplinary systems, too much time has passed to expect adjudication of fault. I am glad this came to light, however. The man who raped her, if he did, will have to reckon with this now. It was already on his soul, forever, and now I hope he has to read that article as well.
We all know one of the people who did it. That part is obvious now looking back.
Who?
Can’t say ITT because I’ll likely be banned
Number??
What a tool you are...why even bring it up?