Can we talk about the USA today article?
I didn’t see the original thread title or any of the comments before it was shut down. I’m assuming people were naming players.
We don’t have to do that when we have no evidence, but I think it’s a topic we should be able to discuss, particularly:
- the program’s response, including Harbaugh’s, and
- the university’s response.
It’s a touchy subject to say the least, but this is obviously bigger than football, and it involves the program we cheer for and support. We should be able to talk about it.
What's he suppose to say to her after that letter? She complained that she wouldn't follow UM football because she saw a guy she legitimately dislikes playing.
Okay. I get that. But there isn't anything Harbaugh can do about it at that point. There was no complaint against him, no evidence of wrongdoing, no Title IX complaints, and he had already done everything she had asked.
She has legitimate feelings that not a single person in the world can hand wave away.
He didn't take her calls, he called her.
Has anyone actually read the article here?
The quote is "Moffett had a second phone call with Harbaugh on April 6, 2021 that lasted 38 minutes, phone records show" which doesn't indicate one way or another. It's emotionally charged, so we all might be missing some pieces of info from the article
Okay, but you're skipping the only clearly worded portion that says Jim called her, at least the first time. She even mentioned her surprise that he called...
It's hard to discuss this without reckless speculation. We know the university was informed, they went to the police, and the police didn't pursue charges.
From there, you're guess as to the "facts" are as good as mine. The police won't and can't comment; the university's lawyers won't comment - we're getting one side of the story, more or less. And what side people come down on are going to be entirely colored by your view of the world.
Just read it. My feelings are of ambivalence. I’m certain something inappropriate and likely illegal happened. I also feel that with the passage of time and inability to get the co-complainant to cooperate any legal action would be a wasted effort. What always shocks me more generally is that 25% of college undergrad women report being sexually assaulted. As a parent of two young daughters, that’s terrifying.
My HS girlfriend went to St. Mary's (the Notre Dame all-girl sister school in South Bend). I went to orientation with her. This was right after the 2002-ish incident where a handful of ND players gang-raped a girl. They had an entire presentation that focused on 1 in 4 of their students experiencing some form of sexual assault. They offered (for like $150) Nike running shoes to students, with a tiny "rape whistle" that tucks into a pouch in the tongue of the shoe. They also had blue-light stations with push-buttons and phones every couple hundred feet on the sidewalks and paths between St. Mary's campus and ND's campus.
It was the weirdest presentation I've ever seen. It painted the picture of girls running for their lives like they were in a slasher movie, blowing their rape whistles while racing to a blue-light station to hit the safety buzzer. And the parents were lined up at the tables to order the bizarre rape-whistle Nikes.
That is bizarre and probably completely fails to understand more deeply that much of the occurrences are not of the “stranger on the street late at night” variety. They are of the, “let’s hang out more at my place” variety that goes further than the woman explicitly consents to.
They really need to give the girls daggers to stab an assailant in the throat with. Give her some level of physical protection.
When I was a freshman in high school, I was at a party where a bunch of boys allegedly gang raped an intoxicated girl in an upstairs bedroom. Never heard any more about it after the party but this was back in the late 70's and the culture was much, much different. People didn't talk about this kind of acquaintance rape. Rape was a violent crime perpetrated by strangers, criminals. It wasn't something the guy who sat next to you in math class did on a Friday night.
1/4 does sound about right based on research I've read and honestly just some anecdotal conversations I've had, though part of the issue does seem to be that "sexual assault" can be a somewhat nebulously-defined term depending on who you're talking to. It can range from full sexual intercourse to inappropriate touching, and everything in between. It can range from first-time encounters to intimate partner violence, and also mixes in drinking, drugs, etc.
I have a young daughter and a young son and I'm similarly trying to navigate these situations wherein you're teaching everyone about boundaries, smart behavior, and respect and safety while also being careful not point every situation as dangerous or characterize every action in a certain light.
My daughter told me that she believes she was drugged one night at a frat party. She was unaware of it at the time. Thankfully, she left the party and was home before the effects began. She said she was basically unconscious until well into the next day, and it was much more severe than the effects of drinking, when she realized what happened.
"The law did not prohibit Michigan from investigating, Simon said. In fact, she said, federal regulations give schools discretion to complete investigations even if the accused student leaves.
“'They chose not to investigate,' she said. That police did not attempt to contact the players at all, she said, is “upsetting.”
“'Their job is to investigate,' Simon said. 'If you don’t call, you definitely won’t have a case.'”
--
This looks like the crux of Michigan's (alleged) failure in this painful and frustrating case. Team and school share no criminal burden of proof in disciplining players should some guilt become obvious. (I.e. looking on or filming while the young woman was raped.) They could have suspended them, disciplined them, etc.
But what's more worrisome, to my mind, is the way this fits such a well established pattern. Psychologists talk about how gang rapes have a homoerotic component, with men anxious about their manhood proving something to one another by belittling and sexually assaulting women. We're reading about this same sequence again and again at universities, involving athletes and others. What's going on when young men PLAN something like this (obtaining the drugs, talking it up, fantasizing about it, going out in pursuit of young women)?
This is the part that I struggle to wrap my head around. But it also seems like something you can address with young men. I believe they're already doing rape awareness training, that Harbaugh had a woman coming in and talking to guys early on each season. You have to believe that with a little more self-awareness that more young men can be dissuaded from such ugly.
We don't really know that Harbaugh did nothing in this case, btw. He could well have demanded that the two guys who remained do counseling, etc.. Would that have been enough? What would have been a fitting outcome? If he didn't get up in their grills (for starters) and scream at them, put the f'ing fear of Jehovah in them, he didn't do enough.
I largely agree with what you're saying but I will also, as always, take issue with reading the words of an attorney (even one who may or may not be involved in this particular situation) as gospel.
“To me, that’s pretty ludicrous to say that the mere fact that she is no longer alive means that it isn’t possible to have a process to hold (the players) accountable,” Simon said.
Coming from a lawyer, the fact the alleged victim is no longer alive does make it significantly more difficult especially if the alleged perpetrator may or may not still be part of the school (this I couldn't quite discern from the article as it relates to timeline). It's a university and so if the victim is no longer alive and able share her situation what you are left with are a bunch of factually-limited text messages, some hearsay comments, a public statement by the victim that was light on details about the people involved. Yes, the University could bring in those players, asked them what happened, but that's it. Maybe they admit they were there, maybe they say she made it up, whatever but that's all you're going to get. The framing by this lawyer seems weird to me because I'm certain that if her client was one of the accused she'd be dismissing all of the evidence out of hand immediately due to its weaknesses.
This is a horrible situation and one I hope the school and team handles but unless evidence comes out that Harbaugh and co. knew about this at the time and did nothing the only different thing the school could done would have been a perfunctory investigation that came back with nothing.
We don't really know that Harbaugh did nothing in this case
Not defending Harbaugh or prosecuting Harbaugh in the court of public opinion, but it seems like his hands are tied. He cannot discipline players during an investigation.
Now if the investigation is closed, and there are players still on the roster, they need to go and Harbaugh can do that. But it's also 5 years later.
I'm saving my ire for the bullshit response from the University.
Michigan CONTINUES to get it wrong over and over and over again. Leaders and best my ass -- we're basically the dysfunctional love child of MSU and PSU at this point when it comes to ethics and integrity.
It's a lose-lose conversation.
The victim never reported. The friend with firsthand knowledge refused to cooperate after the victim died and an investigation was launched. The only other people with knowledge that isn't hearsay are the players who may or may not have done something illegal. Unless they did something wrong and admit it, or turn on each other, then there's nowhere for the investigation to go.
That said, I realize it's shitty, and I realize I'd probably call for coaches to be fired and players to be booted if it happened elsewhere.
Something similar happened at Notre Dame in like 2012 (Lizzy Seeberg). Reading the article, that's the first thing that popped in my head. It's scary how common stories like these are.
Personally, I'm shocked at the lack of follow through.......from everyone. Shameful.
Complete the investigations. Plain and simple. Someone could have video. Someone may decide they actually have a conscience and step up. Someone may have texts, messages, witness to conversations.....there are a lot more possible ways this could go. At least question the suspects in a manner that befits the seriousness of the allegations.
While it is true, given the circumstances that there might never be enough evidence to warrant criminal charges, you still have to actually try FFS.
That said, there easily could have been enough evidence available for a Title IX case, again one would need to follow up though. They didn't.
The fact that the players were still in the field smells awful to me. Draw your own conclusions, I'm hoping it doesn't end here and we get more clarity and that this article forces some people to do their jobs.
I could be wrong, but there wasn't really anywhere for an investigation to go with the victim being deceased and the victim's friend refusing to report. They couldn't get warrants or file charges, so anyone accused of anything could just refuse to speak with investigators. Nobody could be forced to turn in their phone for any potential video evidence. I'm not really sure what else they could do. You can't force people to cooperate without evidence or the friend's report.
I'm not defending anyone -- I'm just saying that I can see why it didn't go anywhere.
Wrong .... Interview the accused players, interview/ask about any other players/students and ask about who might have a copy of the video......send it anonymously..... whatever. I'm not a professional investigator and these steps are obvious to me as basic minimums prior to closing a case.
Publicize it........make anyone who might have relevant information aware of the investigation.
You exhaust every possible avenue for potential evidence. That was CLEARLY not done here....not even close.
They took a tidy and easy path to shut it down as quickly and quietly as possible. No publicity, no awareness.....very hush hush.
Ask yourself this.......would you be happy with this level of investigation if it was your daughter? I don't think so. If you answer yes to that question, your very good at deluding yourself.
No one in any capacity to investigate here showed any level of interest in getting to the bottom of what actually happened that night. Rather, they seemed focused on getting this closed up/shut down with as little awareness, investigation and accountability as possible and until this letter/article were successful.
I hope someone, somewhere with information can be a human and step up, come forward and provide something that makes the investigation move forward and I hope there is, if nothing else, a completion of that process at the level that it did have occured to begin with. Then we can make our varied decisions on accountability.
"Wrong .... Interview the accused players, interview/ask about any other players/students and ask about who might have a copy of the video......send it anonymously..... whatever. I'm not a professional investigator and these steps are obvious to me as basic minimums prior to closing a case."
-> Your complainant is dead. Your second complainant is not cooperating with the investigation. You have ZERO physical evidence. Those are some very high roadblocks to overcome. Yes, you can interview the accused players, but it can only be a voluntary interview and most people simply lawyer up. You also can't force witnesses to answer your questions.
"Publicize it........make anyone who might have relevant information aware of the investigation."
-> You try and shield your victims and witnesses as much as possible. How exactly do you go about 'publicizing it' without revealing your victim's identity as well as your suspects identity?
"You exhaust every possible avenue for potential evidence. That was CLEARLY not done here....not even close....No one in any capacity to investigate here showed any level of interest in getting to the bottom of what actually happened that night. Rather, they seemed focused on getting this closed up/shut down with as little awareness, investigation and accountability as possible and until this letter/article were successful."
-> Welcome to the American justice system. What you have not realized is that the courts are not set up to find the truth and punish violators of the law. They are set up to make sure the rights of the accused are not violated. The WHOLE SYSTEM is stacked in favor of the accused. Television shows like SVU depicts a distorted reality of law enforcement and the investigative process.
Bringing cases with a living complainant, a witness and physical evidence is still a difficult task. Once the evidence piles up, the defense quickly shifts to a consent or a, he-said/she said affair. Your outrage is understandable but be careful knocking down the investigation.
By that logic, they should just never interview anyone about a crime ever, because they might just lawyer up and of course they aren't going to willingly admit to anything. Yet they do, every day all the time.
Anything can happen when you bring those three guys in and start having them give their accounts of that night. Anything.
A few possibilities:
- One player grows a conscience and comes clean, possibly providing the video as evidence
- One player who may not have participated as much as the other two decides there is risk and pleas to a lesser charge/receives immunity in exchange for his testimony.
- Publicizing the investigation and interviewing other players, friends, whomever......word gets around and someone who received the video and was abhorred by what they saw decided to come forward.
None of these had any possiblity of occuring because.....no interviews ever took place.....no one was ever made aware of the investigation.
Again.......I don't think even if a video surfaced (unless it clearly demonstrated a crime took place) or someone testified that there is likely to be successful criminal prosecution. That's a high bar for burden of proof and given the circumstances and the amount of time passed, it would have to be one hell of a smoking gun. But Title IX burden of proof is different and there could very well be enough evidence for there to be real repercussions and accountability. There is also, quite simply, the exposure factor and that at least the world would know as much as possible about what happened that evening and those that committed whatever act was committed would be labeled for life as guys that got away with rape.
Giving up after two months without doing the most basic level of investigation isn't enough. It is essentially saying, "she's dead and since I might not get a conviction, I don't at all care to know what happened, so I'm just going to shut down the investigation now and not finish."
I'll ask again......if this was your daughter.....you would just shrug your shoulders and say "meh"? Sincerely doubt it.
Finish the investigation regardless. If there is nothing to hide or worry about, no one should have any problem with that. There was video taken and likely shared around and there is a good potential of a smoking gun there, or perhaps just enough to provide some illumination if not a conviction. If you can't put them behind bars, you can at least make them accountable andhave them exposed as rapists. I have a niece attending M right now.......if those players are capable of doing something like that, I don't want them anywhere near campus.......especially if they are fairly positive they are going to get away with it.
Also....to everyone in this thread, be honest with yourself and ask yourself the question, "would my viewpoint here be exactly the same if this was three Spartan or Buckeye players?" Really?
That was such a tragic story. Whether this was a matter of dereliction of duty by Title IX office/AAPD or it was a case where protocols were followed but were insufficient to counteract the cultural norms that continue to keep victims from seeking immediate medical, testifying later on, etc. , the fact is a young woman is dead and whatever truths can be found about that night will likely never be determined. May she rest in peace.
i'm happy to say i didn't see the original comments on the original board post.
i'm sad to say that the comments here are almost certainly 100% identical to the original comments. i'm mostly unsurprised to see the comments to this post, almost certainly doubling down on the deleted comments from the deleted thread.
I don't know enough even after the article to form too much of a opinion.
How can you not feel for the family of the girl who died so young?
But i don't want other young people to have their lives ruined unfairly.
Harbaugh did the initial reach out, but by the time he withdrew was it because he didn't care or that at that point the people in question were beyond his responsibility to either investigate or punish? Was he subjecting himself to potentially unfair legal action if he responded further, especially if it was to tell parents news that the situation was now beyond his mandate to investigate or discipline due to players no longer with the program?
More questions than answers in a sad situation and i hope there is a process through which the family gets resolution, those who acted criminally if any see justice, that policies are reviewed and education delivered to make recurrence less likely, and those who are innocent of everything but association are not harmed.
Yes, I am sure things changed completely if she brought up a lawsuit with him in a phone call (it should). Beyond that he seemed to have done all she had asked and really, more. I don't want to blame the lady who is suffering but the last letter to him seemed like a hurtful cheap shot. I think at that point, if anything, he probably thought there was not any more he could do to help her and she probably did not really want to hear from him anyway.
Nope
The article really focuses on the mother wanting Harbaugh or Michigan to do something -- but really it's the friend who wouldn't cooperate with the investigation who ended any chance of real justice (if a crime was committed). And maybe the friend has valid reasons for not cooperating, who knows -- but if the mother really wants to put pressure on someone, that friend is who I would be pressuring (if I were in the mother's situation). The article just kind of moves right past the fact that the friend chose to not participate. That was the end of any realistic shot at warrants or charges.
Which circles back to the idea of protecting victims. The mother of Quinn Moffet is not a victim, she is a relative of a victim. In fact, Quinn Moffet told her mother that she refused to contact the police and even refused to tell her mother the names of the accused.
A criminal investigation was undertaken without either victims' cooperation and the investigation ran its course. Mary Moffet may want answers but pressuring a victim is not the way.
This is really sad and infuriating. I hope that this family finds some solace and justice
If you're curious about who Rapey McRaper and his cameramen are, just wait a couple years to see who Taylor Lewan takes on as an intern at Bussin' with the Boys.
This is a tragic story for Quinn and her family, and it's distressing that it was seemingly ignored by a lot of entities who, in a better world, would have done more. But the article also is written with a degree of almost intentional naivete about some things. If the victim is no longer available to speak about her alleged assault, she didn't file a report at the time, and most of the evidence is from text messages and public statements years later, there's only so much a legal entity can do with that. As a society we have always treated sexual assaults poorly, typically blaming the victim and making it difficult for them to seek justice. But part of the problem is also that, at least in the US, we have these evidentiary standards and due process rights that require a certain bar to overcome for legal action to be realistic and those seemingly are harder to reach for sexual assaults vs., say, robbery, fraud, murder, etc.
The article notes the AAPD investigated it for about 2 weeks and had little useful evidence, especially once the friend decided not to proceed. So if the AAPD says they can't do much, it would be virtually impossible for the school, even with the reduced standards of a school tribunal, to do much especially if the alleged perpetrator is no longer at the school. And citing O’Maury Samuels as a witness is a bit surprising considering he was dismissed from the team for, I believe, DV and destruction of property. So perhaps not super-reliable, unbiased guy.
It's oftentimes "imperfect" victims (as noted in the article she was apparently had taken unprescribed pain medication and done cocaine before the assault) in situations where alcohol, drugs, partying, etc. are involved that can muddy the waters between intentional and unintentional actions, with heavy overtones of entrenched misogyny (and don't even get me started about male sexual assault victims and the like we've seen via various hazing stories, for example). It sucks, and as we saw in this situation we had a lot of years-later accusations based on contemporaneous text messaging and incomplete memories that make it hard to act on if you're an administrator.
It also insinuates the school should have punished the players involved, yet also notes that legally under Title IX they can't do so without a formal investigation, which again requires the accuser to be present and for there to be some finding of fact. The anecdote about Harbaugh wanting the mother to pass along the names of the players if she remembers them is a valiant effort but also feels somewhat limiting.
The nature of the story points to a young woman who, at the absolute very least, had a sexual encounter with someone that turned from consensual to non-consensual on her part at some point, and the fact she felt violated during and after is terrible and she deserved to be heard and treated well. It sure sounds like she was either given way too much to drink or was drugged (I also got a sense based on the dates and ages that she was under 21, which is further damning for the bar/lounge they were at if she got drinks there) and that made her unable to consent to what happened in that apartment, and that's again beyond the pale.
Again, no excuses for what happened and I hope this does shed light onto changes that should be made at UM and across colleges as they deal with sexual assaults on campus. But this is also the type of situation where you're going to get an unsatisfactory conclusion because so many essential pieces are unavailable.
The previous thread turned into a shit show... so let's create a second thread to continue the shit show.
Have you ever heard of Einstein's definition of insanity?
I would say this thread has been pretty civilized with view points from multiple angles without ending up just becoming a shouting match.
This is a terrible situation with crappy outcome that no one is happy with. It is okay to have a discussion on that, especially if we can avoid victim-blaming.
Have you ever heard of Einstein’s definition of insanity?
No, because he never defined insanity. The line you’re thinking of (“doing the same thing over and over”) was never said by him. It’s an urban myth.
Anyway, I’ve scanned this thread and it seems fine. It’s OK if people disagree about things. That doesn’t make a thread a shitshow.
Harbaugh’s response was okay. Not perfect, but okay. He did reach out to the mother multiple times. But he also didn’t suspend or kick off the team two of the alleged perps which considering the lack of formal investigation leaves me uncomfortable. Uncomfortable because if he kicks the players off without proof of guilt that may alienate the team while simultaneously also looking soft on sexual assault.
The university responding the way it did doesn’t surprise me. Institutions are notoriously hard to change and they still have to account for the rights of the accused. Lack of evidence/testimony gave them a legal out even if they should have still investigated the accusation.
What I find dispiriting was that this was a program that had Brenda Tracy from “Set the Expectation” come in and talk to the players and yet this *still* happened. Not that I am surprised. As people know I have a very low view of humans. But deeply disappointing nonetheless.
The core of this problem is not institutions or coaches but males. Males having been sexually assault females since time immemorial. It’s way past fucking time that they stop doing that and treat women with basic human decency.
A young lady is dead because three men viewed her as a plaything and not as a human.They destroyed her spirit, if not her body. Fuck them and any male who sexually assaults a woman.
But he also didn’t suspend or kick off the team two of the alleged perps which considering the lack of formal investigation leaves me uncomfortable.
Because he couldn't.
The USA Today article says:
"In a statement to USA TODAY, Harbaugh said he generally is prohibited in sexual misconduct cases “from investigating, influencing, or, in most situations, disciplining an individual on the team until the appropriate university process reaches its conclusion.”
Rather is this another Warde failure?!
The core of this problem is not institutions or coaches but males. Males having been sexually assault females since time immemorial. It’s way past fucking time that they stop doing that and treat women with basic human decency.
I once dated a very nice lady, Northwestern Grad, who had been molested by a family member when young and then drugged and date raped in college. She was/is an awesome person, very loving, affectionate, great sense of humor, and obviously smart (ChemE).
But she was wounded and had trust issues (who could blame her). Ultimately we went our separate ways. I just wanted to affirm your comment and acknowledge the untold heartbreak and devastation unrestrained lust has had on our society. It's very sad...
Is it lust? I think it’s rage and anger. And power. And maybe insecurity and low self-esteem. Lust can be quenched before it results in violence against someone else. Rage and anger not so much.
As the father of a daughter who I only recently found out went through something really bad a number of years ago, I have no end of sympathy for the mother. And I know nothing will ever make me "okay" with the past. My daughter has received extensive counseling and is now as okay as I could hope for. So I'm thankful, all things considered.
I think JH did all that could be asked of him, and even went above and beyond what most people, let alone someone as prominent as he, would have done. I understand the mother's frustration. But sometimes there is no more an individual can do to fix something.
There are many people who do very bad things, and, frustrating as it is, we can't fix the damage they cause. Nor will we ever completely stop it. Not that we shouldn't try.
People shouldn't qualify their feelings in such a way because they are parents to a daughter but rather be outraged/have sympathy because they don't suck at being human beings in the first place.
Thanks for the hate. I shall attempt to be a better person now by following your example of never missing an opportunity to condescend.
I may have misread this but I didn't see it as a snipe. More that ones relationship to a woman shouldn't have a bearing on how said woman or women should be treated.
And in your particular situation, it was not just a vague "As a father of 3 daughters..." statement that you often see but a specific incident which, sadly, occurred to your daughter.
Moose:
Thank you for a bit of a corrective. But yeah, like it or not, close relationships with people who have gone through particular bad experiences, whatever they might be, does "have a bearing" on the way we respond to things.
For example, I have always known drug addiction to be a bad thing, but dealing with addicts has made me much more sensitive to the plight.
But, yes, we all should recognize that wrong is wrong, and there is no right way to do the wrong thing. And in contrast we shouldn't try to out-happy happy. You may quote me on that last very original thought.
Hey I circled back because I was in the middle of my work day before. I can't, nor do I want to imagine my child going through that. I appreciate your sharing something that must so difficult and I don't think the following applies in any way to what you wrote because, once again, it is a sad, true personal experience.
Some do get upset at "As the father of daughters" statements because they often place the value of women only on their relationship to men. There was a bit written about it during the Harvey Weinstein thing which sticks with me:
"Your wives gave birth to a baby girl, not a moral compass... Only a sociopath needs a daughter — or a sister, a girlfriend, a wife, or even just a lady standing in front of him at Starbucks — to make him queasy enough at the thought of a sexual predator in his industry to do something about it. You don’t need a daughter to feel guilty about working with a man who preys on young women, or about not acting to stop him. You just need a conscience."
Edit: I don't think you were doing that at all.
I just think maybe that was the context that Stig replied.
Blessed are the cheesemakers.
More that ones relationship to a woman shouldn't have a bearing on how said woman or women should be treated.
Yep.
Savoy:
Ah. Okay. Yeah, that is obviously true. In this case none of us has a close relationship with anyone involved, so I guess I read over the implications because, really, they don't apply to the situation at hand.
But that brings me back to feeling less corrected.
I'll shut up now. This isn't about me. We all have pain in our past and in the past of our loved ones. This is about a complicated mess and a grieving mother. And a world that contains a whole bunch of suck.
I may have misread this but I didn't see it as a snipe
Thank you.
my daughter was a victim of domestic abuse. She didn't report it immediately because she was in shock something like that could happen to her and also because he was a federal government employee...it's hard to make the correct reaction sometimes...
What happened is sad and tragic.
I'm not terribly impressed by the headline, which very much implies that there is more that coach Harbaugh can do at this point. I do not know what that would be.
Nothing is going to bring a grieving mother's child back. He's not a prosecutor. As pointed out elsewhere he has legal obligations of his own toward his players. He's not judge, jury or executioner. Hopefully going public will give the mother some peace, even at the cost of potential smearing of some folks who don't deserve it.