Alex Kirshner's tweet--He gets us!
From Alex Kirshner in Brian's Bullet points today: "Michigan basketball fans have the highest chill-to-stress ratio of any fanbase in the country. Michigan football fans have the opposite. These are almost 100% the same people. They're a fascinating psych experiment. These are almost 100% the same people."
Guilty as charged. I guess happiness is a function of expectations, and our expectations for hoops = 1/expectations for football for the last 5 decades and counting.
UM has been searching for the next Bo since the 90s, to no avail and most of us take the hoops team for granted despite enjoying not one but 2 amazing coaches in a row and a natty and Fab 5 before that.
Ironically IU has the next Bo. Tom Allen is clean, hard nosed, fair and tough. And they take him for granted while they continue searching for the next hoops savior.
Expectations...
To be fair, success has a much wider range of outcomes in Basketball than Football, and one loss doesn't end a season. Completing/winning one of the following can make a season a success even if other elements aren't perfect: Big Ten regular season, Big Ten tourney, making the elite 8. 2015/2016 is a great example of this - super mediocre year, but we on the BTT and it ended up being pretty solid!
To be faaaaaiiiiiiiirrrr.
15/16 was the Tulsa first four year, but your point still stands about 16/17 :)
Heck, just making the tournament is an accomplishment at times. It certainly was for us in 2009 and 2011 - and it would be for Sparty this year.
Football demands that you be in the top four in the country at the end of the regular season to make the playoff. That's a tough ask.
So it demands that you make the Final Four every year? I know it’s not exactly apples to apples, but interesting consideration nonetheless
In basketball, if you've at least got a decent team you should make the tournament; and, if you do, there's always a chance. You can ride that happiness until you get eliminated. If you make the second weekend, it can be considered a good season. To accomplish this, you only need some good fortune and/or to have one of the 16 best teams. Most importantly, you can hope for this almost every year because things can change so much from one year to the next.
In football, not so much. It can take several years of recruiting and building to become good. As a fan, it's relatively easy to spot which way that trajectory is headed and it can seem eternally torturous if it isn't a good trend. For instance, if recruiting isn't bringing in swathes of elite talent to match the best teams, it's incredibly not likely your team is going to compete.
As far as seasons go, it can be pretty obvious from the first game that you're probably screwed. And if it isn't obvious, it's really easy for false expectations to build.
Football season, game one: "Oh, God, this season is going to suck..." or game 6: "This is gonna be the greatest season ever!!!!" and then game 12: "..oh.....shit. Maybe not..."
In football, what successful season could ever include slipping by some really weak OOC teams, having to take a baby seal to OT to slip past them, getting pasted by Minnesota and Illinois, but knowing you still field a team good enough to finish with an NCAA championship?
It's almost like we have had 2 elite basketball coaches in a row providing nearly 10 years of stable winning....and then a carousel of dumpster fires in football for close to 20 years now.
Winning uber alles.
10 wins in three of the past 6 football seasons isn't exactly a dumpster fire.
So, cool, we're not Rutgers. But dumpster fire in regards to some old tradition of being top-2 in the Big Ten year in and year out...yea one might say it's a dumpster fire, albeit a relative one.
Get back to me when we beat the Ohio football school and win the B1G in football.
Next you will probably tell me about how Harbaugh has done so much better than Hoke and RR. The bar has fallen so low amongst a lot of this fanbase it is subterranean. SMH.
Harbaugh has underperformed based on what we expected from Harbaugh, but he's been way better than Rich Rod. And Hoke. Yes, Hoke beat Ohio State but with the caveat that it was a really off year for them. I think if you focused in on just Ohio State games, Hoke did better. His teams seemed more prepared than Harbaugh's. But overall, Harbaugh has done better than both.
Next you will probably tell me about how Harbaugh has done so much better than Hoke and RR.
I'm not gonna tell you shit, but thanks for giving me your opinion.
If Division I-A football had a 16-team playoff like every other level, Harbaugh's teams would have probably made it three times in his first five seasons - same as Beilein.
OTOH, if only the top four basketball teams could make the tourney, Beilein never would have made it. We haven't been a #1 seed since 1993.
Of the 350 schools eligible to make the ncaa tournament, approximately 19.4% do. That percentage in football calculates to all top 25 teams making the playoff. Harbaugh would have made all years except for last year and 2017.
SOLD!
Expand the football playoffs.
I've been against for the most part, but the same teams year after year is getting very stale! Not to mention the talent consolidation amongst these same teams.
Well it's pretty easy to be chill when things are going well. But I can't be the only one to remember when, not too long ago, some segments of the fanbase were calling for Beilein to be fired.
But otherwise, yeah, I agree with you OP. Expectations...
Yeah, there were multiple "Fire Beilein" threads here. Here's one of them.
I will absolutely get roasted for this (and probably deserve it), but this is kind of how I feel about the Harbaugh hate.
Lot of dead homies in that thread, had to pour out a 40.
At least 17... and many I recognized as frequent contributors, not trolls.
The next Bo? I think you mean the next Lloyd. Carr won a National championship, Bo never accomplished that.
How is arguing about/debating any of this enjoyable or even tolerable anymore?
I'm guilty of this too. I love what the MBB team is doing, of course, but watching them celebrate last night I couldn't help thinking how cool it would have been for Jim Harbaugh to have done what Juwan Howard did. *Insert wistful sigh here*
I just don’t wanna think about that other team right now. Basketball and hockey are all that matter right now.
I have especially enjoyed not getting my hopes up for any off-season heisman superstars.
60's: One national championship game, one elite 8, three B1G titles
70's: One national championship game, one elite 8, two B!G titles
80's: One national championship, two B1G titles
90's: Two national championship games, one elite 8
2000: Dark years
2010's: Two national championship games, one elite 8, three B1G titles
Maybe we've been a basketball school all along.
Maybe the real basketball school were the friends we made along the way.
I actually laughed out loud at this.
This is an excellent take. I've always thought we've been a basketball school since the early 80's, but have just been overshadowed by the football program.
And yet there's this nagging, deep-seated knowledge that nothing Juwan Howard and his men could ever accomplish would be able to cause the same outburst of joy as a win over OSU securing a playoff berth in football would.
I doubt I'm alone in this: basketball is a diversion, football is an obsession.
Totally get it, and feelings are feelings (and unexplainable).
But for me, the Fab Five history makes Michigan more than the typical "Football school with a pretty good basketball program". The basketball program has legitimate history independent of # of trips to the Final Four. Oklahoma could go to 10 Final Fours in the next 20 years and lack that extra bit of 'history'.
Not me. My football obsession has slowly been smothered with a pillow over the last decade. About the only thing I enjoy about it at this point is tailgating with friends. The games are mostly just a source of irritation at this point.
You are far from alone. I am in the minority but I hold basketball on at least an equal pedestal as football.
In the late 90s, as a teenager I used to listen to EVERY UofM basketball game on the radio. Those Travis Conlon/Robbie Reid years.
By the early 2000s while MSU was winning national titles, I was driving from Lansing to A2 to watch Brian Ellerbe coached teams get thumped.
When I moved to the West Coast, I organized an NIT party to watch Michigan beat Oregon for the title in 2003 or 2004.
I am not trying to "prove" my Fandom, but rather make a point that through all of that I found joy in Michigan basketball. I can't say the same for football.
I have watched every football game, but I have developed a sense of melancholy to it all. Maybe it was watching Oregon torch us in 2003 and 2004. Or maybe it was the Appalachian State game that finally broke me. I'm not really sure. I just know for me personally the lows feel lower in football and the highs feel higher in basketball.
RE: The basketball diversion, football obsession.
Yeah, it used to be that way. Since the Horror, the pendulum has been swinging toward basketball, and right now, it's basketball that is the obsession.
It's blasphemy, but I pay more attention to football coverage here than I do the actual games lately. I'm sick of being disappointed by a team that just seems out of it most of the time.
"I doubt I'm alone in this: basketball is a diversion, football is an obsession."
Not for me.
I actually love the Michigan Basketball program more than I love the Michigan Football program. In my mind, M Football has a very "Don't you know who my grandad was?" vibe to it.
I remember a Kentucky Basketball fan once referring to Indiana Basketball as IUsedToBe. Unfortunately, that's how I feel about M Football.
If given the choice to take 5 National Championships in 1 decade in only one of the two sports, I would pick M Basketball over Football.
/I realize I'm in the minority.
//I don't doubt that many people would take Football success over Basketball success. Schembechler was the same way. Example: He couldn't stomach the thought of a Michigan Basketball Head Coach making more in salary per year than the Michigan Football Head Coach made. Yes, true story.
///The great thing about Michigan is that it's not an either/or for us. We are one of the few programs that be excellent/elite at both.
I think I've said this before: Michigan could've been a blueblood in basketball with a bit more success. Duke is considered a blueblood but Michigan is not. Coincidentally, the two programs were quite similar from 1960 to 1997. Michigan actually won its first National Championship before Duke won its first. But after Fisher, Michigan entered the dark days (with a few bright spots - like wining the inaugural Big Ten Tournament) while Duke kept ascending.
Interesting enough, Michigan basketball is generally a pretty deocrated program from 1960-present. I feel like the 2000-2008 period weighs very heavily in folks' minds that puts M basketball at such a distant second to M football. Based on success, it should be more of a 1B to football's 1A. More sustained success throughout the time period and less droughts than football. More success against the chief rival.
Big Ten basketball generally has had a lot more parity as well with MSU, OSU, and Indiana strong throughout most of that time with Illinois, Wisconsin, and Purdue having strong teams at various points. Football had MSU in the 60s with Duffy (when we had a noted down period), Penn State didn't join until the mid 90s and Wisconsin wasn't a football mainstay until mid 90s (after which we've had little success). 70s and 80s it was the Big 2 and Little 8 which is when we really racked up our hardware.
Basketball since 1960:
Big Ten Season Champs: 64*, 65, 66, 74*, 77, 85, 86, 2012*, 2014, 2021 (* is shared title)
Big Ten Tourney Champs: 98, 2017, 2018
Record vs. MSU: 57-56 (0.504)
Sweet 16: 64, 65, 66, 74, 76, 77, 88, 89, 92, 93, 94, 2013, 2014, 2017, 2018, 2019
Elite 8: 64, 65, 66, 74, 76, 77, 89, 92, 93, 94, 2013, 2014, 2018
Final Fours: 64, 65, 76, 89, 92, 93, 2013, 2018
Runners up: 65, 76, 92, 93, 2013, 2018
Natl Champs: 89
Football since 1960:
Big Ten Season Champs:64, 69*, 72, 73*, 74*, 76*, 77*, 78*, 80, 82, 86*, 88, 89, 90*, 91, 92, 97, 98*, 2000*, 2003, 2004* (* is shared title)
Record vs. OSU: 23-33 (0.390)
Bowl game record: 18-27(0.400)
Natl Champs: 97
That is pretty amazing that we are 7-1 in Final Fours. Certainly that has to be some kind of record.
I lived in East Quad so all the disclaimers come into play but I think mathematically, if we were 7-1 in Final Fours, by definition we would have to have more than one Natl Championship.
We are 7-1 in the literal Final Four (i.e. national semifinal) round. And then 1-6 in the title game, for a total record of 8-7 in that last weekend.
My gosh that is funny!! I was a little confused myself. East Quad!!!
Unfortunately, then 1-7 in championship games.
Let's allow the laws of probability to push this well-deserving team to a victory in the final game and not have them slam against a potential all-timer in Gonzaga. The tournament has to play out but this does seem a bit different than the 2013/2018 final squads and even the Fab Five 92/93 teams that were not expected to win it. Seems anyone they will face this year there is a legitimate shot to win.
I was so happy to have those four runner-up teams there and winning would have been gravy based on expectations. Can't speak to the 60's 70's teams. 89 team was super hot, enjoyable to watch, and not a surprise they were able to pull it off. It seems the expectation this year is closer to the 89 season vs. the last four trips.
Go Blue!
Fo Wagner
Geh' Blau!
1-6 it the title game (unless you can tell the future?)
BTW, the '92 team was a huge underdog, but '93 was not. That was considered a tossup. We'd beaten UNC in the regular season, on a last-second shot.
Bo was great at a lot of things and Im appreciative of what he did well for Michigan. I’ve never wanted the next Bo. I want someone who wins national championships.
I really don’t like all of the, “bring back player/coach X” because I want Michigan to move on from the past and bring in new blood.
That said, if I have to think in those terms I’d rather bring back the next Chrisler or Yost.
THANK YOU!
If given a choice to have Bo Schembechler's Michigan success or John McKay's Southern Cal success (4x MNC) or Ara Parseghian's Notre Dame success (2x MNC), I'm taking the latter 2 for sure. (I'm using Bo's contemporaries once he became Michigan HC.)
Speaking as someone who grew up during the "Bo" years, while I understand the suggestion that we need to stop citing him as the barometer of Michigan success ... I would like to point out the unbelievable excitement that surrounded the program in those days. Michigan was dominant, and while the style of play wouldn't excite the modern viewer, his teams were *never* unprepared, took lesser teams for granted, or at a physical or skill disadvantage. I'm not saying there were no close games or no upsets (Minnesota and Purdue still rankle), but ... damn, it was fun to be then what Alabama is today.
When we could see the Goodyear Blimp taking its test flights on Friday afternoons once or twice a year before big "nationally televised" games while playing with a nerf football amid falling leaves, the sense of anticipation was ... almost tangible. We'd all stop and look up at it for 2-3 minutes. That was Bo.
Every year one or two kids would come back to school having been to the Rose Bowl, and that kid was a stud for a few days.The Rose Bowl was Mecca. We felt it was ... inevitable, and that some day we'd get there too. That was Bo.
I don't expect that from Harbaugh, or whoever comes next. But I won't apologize for hoping we get back to being a consistently tough out. And this past season was ... as close to the opposite of that as I can remember, with the possible exception of 2008.
So no, I don't expect Bo. But I'm also tired of people suggesting Michigan can't get back to that level. They forget that in 69 Ohio State was considered an absolutely dominant team, and there were suggestions that they should be playing in the NFL. They were a level above us, and we couldn't even hope to compete with them for talent. And then Bo got here, and ... disproved all of that right quick.
This idea that the past is prologue is nonsense. Things always change. If Harbaugh can't make it happen -- and after last year, I believe he can't -- then let's find someone who can. With our budgets, profile,and reputation ... we should be able to match anyone for talent.
Sorry. Went off there. :-)
“or at a physical or skill disadvantage”
Except for most bowl games against USC, or other PAC schools.
Bo's bowl problem was that he viewed bowl games as a postseason reward for a good season, not as an extension to the season. As a result, his players simply weren't hungry for a win until late in his career.
Bo's insistence that the game was about building character rather than collecting trophies would very much work against him in modern college football.
I follow basketball as fanatically as football, yet for some reason the highest of highs and lowest of lows do not equate to those same highs and lows of Football.
Example: I really enjoyed the big win in Columbus two Sundays ago, but I correlate that win to a win vs like decent B1G win (say Penn St 2018). And when Michigan lost to Nova for a national championship I was about 10% as upset as I am with an OSU loss in football.
Here is the money question: If you had the choice one or the other, you could pick either a Hoops National Title this year, or a win vs OSU in November? I feel most don’t want to admit, but the majority would take the latter.