A Data-Driven Response to the “Fire Harbaugh” and “Unacceptable” Crowd: What Trade-Offs are You Willing to Make to Win?

Submitted by jcorqian on December 1st, 2019 at 5:48 PM

Conclusion: Michigan will – in all likelihood (e.g., 90%+ probability) lose every year to Ohio State unless we recruit better (defined as being within 2 – 3 spots of OSU through the 247 Sports composite rankings) because we will never outcoach OSU by a margin that is wide enough to overcome the talent deficit (they have lots of money invested in football and can hire top-of-the-line coaches too).  The key to recruiting better will be to do things that Michigan has traditionally condemned as unsavory in college football – yes, I am talking about viewing the sport not through the lens of amateurism and the student-athlete experience, but through the lens of a semi-professional enterprise complete with money and a “football-first” mentality.  This is something that Harbaugh and the current administration is unwilling to do (at least at this time).  As a fanbase, ultimately we need to decide what’s more important: A) amateurism and the student-athlete experience and 9-4 / 10-3 type seasons without B10 championships or the playoffs, or B) shifting to a semi-professional enterprise and competing for B10 championships or the playoffs.

Note that I am not trying to support A or B (my personal opinion is to lean towards B only the sense of unleashing player payments but nothing else, FWIW).  I simply feel based on what I’ve been reading here on the blog that most people are not aware how binary A and B are as paths.  The goal of this diary is to hopefully get people to understand – through data – that Harbaugh has basically done as well as anyone can possibly do (and has more than met Michigan’s historical standard) without going down path B.  You all can obviously come to your own conclusion on what is “acceptable” to you, but I take issue with calling for Harbaugh’s head thinking that another coach can come in and do better while strictly adhering to path A.  Not going to happen based on the data.

Context:  Why am I writing this?  Well, unlike many I am not all too upset at the outcome of yesterday’s game.  Obviously, it sucks incredibly hard as a true, die-hard Michigan fan, but I am a firm believer in unhappiness generally coming from outcomes being worse than expectations.  My expectations were exceptionally low – like Magnus’ prediction of 42 – 17 at TTB, I also thought that we would get blown out.  I analyze data and predict outcomes for a living (I’m an equity investor) and would flatter myself in that I am more dispassionate and less emotional in coming to conclusions from data, even in things that I care deeply about.  On Wednesday before the Thanksgiving break, one of my PMs – who is a Wisconsin grad and a huge fan so extremely familiar with the B10 – asked me how many points I’d have to spot OSU for a bet on who buys lunch.  I told him three touchdowns, and two touchdowns if I was truly being a homer.  The data from each teams’ respective seasons simply told that story fairly clearly.

I’m not writing this because I’m upset at what happened yesterday; I am writing this because I find it incredibly annoying that so many people shit on Harbaugh so hard with endless hot takes (fire him!) after losses like this that can easily be seen from a mile away due to structural gaps in programs – yes, I am talking about recruitingUnless Michigan is willing to address these structural gaps, then we should be content with this outcome.  (Side note – I do think some of the Don Brown criticism is justified, more from a fundamental perspective in DT recruitment philosophy).   I think that Harbaugh is a good man who truly cares about his student-athletes and even yesterday absolutely refused to throw them under the bus to the media after being asked an obviously leading and asinine question on the talent gap.  I think that Harbaugh is an exceptional competitor and that it’s absolutely foolish to question his desire to win The Game.  I also think that Harbaugh is extremely focused on being clean and doing things the right way.  Of course, my whole premise is that we are on an uneven playing field with top programs like OSU, Alabama, Clemson, LSU, Georgia, etc. (I was the guy who wrote this diary).  Unless we as fans / as a school are willing to even that playing field, it’s very much unfair to criticize Harbaugh for what has been – objectively – an incredible turnaround and great job so far.

What the Data Says

Michigan and OSU Annual Record Since 1953 (Michigan Joining the Big Ten)

Conclusions:

Michigan has always been a good but not elite program – the average season across this 67-year dataset has a 69% win percentage (defined as wins over total games played, so ties back when ties were allowed do not count as wins).  When broken down by coach:

Bennie Oosterbaan: 57%

Bump Elliot: 53%

Bo Schembechler: 79%

Gary Moeller: 73%

Lloyd Carr: 75%

Rich Rodriguez: 57%

Brady Hoke: 60%

Jim Harbaugh: 73%

So for example, the average Lloyd Carr season was a 75% win rate, or basically 9 – 3.  Note that the average win percentage for all coaches other than Harbaugh is actually only 65% (note that this is different than the average across every season, since every coach’s average record is counted as just a single entry in this calculation).  The key takeaway is that Harbaugh actually is performing better than our historical average, and basically on par with Moeller and Carr.  This doesn’t even factor in the fact that he had no foundation and had to clean up after RR and Hokes’ messes.  Only Bo is has a higher average winning percentage, and I would argue that Bo had advantages that Harbaugh doesn’t.  These include: 1) higher scholarship limits, 2) a weaker rest of the B10, and 3) a significantly weaker OSU.  Bo also had a much easier path to championships since you could tie… under the old rules, we would have tied for the B10 Championship with OSU last year so Harbaugh would have won a championship, something that is often overlooked.

Now, let’s turn to OSU.  They have an average season win percentage of 77% across the 67-year dataset, which is notably higher than Michigan’s 69%.  When broken down by coach (I’m skipping Fickell’s interim year):

Woody Hayes: 76%

Earle Bruce: 75%

John Cooper: 70%

Jim Tressel: 82%

Urban Meyer / Ryan Day: 92%

Meyer / Day’s success is simply astronomical and clearly above OSU’s previous trend line, though Tressel had already established it.  Clearly, something changed with Tressel and then changed again with Meyer / Day.  Note that the average win percentage for all coaches other than Meyer / Day is only 76%.  Meyer / Day have an absurd 92% win percentage.

All of this is easily supported by Bill Connelly’s S&P+, by the way:

So, what changed in terms of OSU dominating Michigan?  It’s extremely simple – recruiting.

Michigan and OSU Annual Recruiting Rank Since 2000 (247 Sports Composite)

A few notes here: 1) Obviously I would go back further, but the database only goes to 1999 and the data integrity looks weird that year.  2) I highlighted 2003 – 2007 for OSU’s class absolute rank because these are obviously incorrect – I looked into it and it seems that for whatever reason, the 247 database lists only a few OSU commits as hard commits and the rest are there but not included in the tally, so the number of recruits per class looks abnormally low which accounts for the low scores.  Realistically, OSU’s classes were much better – I’m hoping that the average player scores are still correct but have my doubts since they probably only include the players counted as hard commits.  Ultimately I decided to simply present the data as is without trying to manipulate it at all and just caveat what is obviously wrong.  I don’t think it really affects my point too much – just keep in mind that OSU’s 2003 – 2007 classes were realistically still likely ranked in the top ten and probably on par or better with Michigan.

Conclusions:

OSU has always out-recruited us.  Not a surprise, but look at how much the gap has increased since Meyer took over in 2012.  Now look at the gap since Harbaugh took over in 2015 – it has actually widened, which is extremely troubling.  Things have gotten worse.  Since Meyer started, the average player score for Michigan has been 90.0 and for OSU has been 92.2.  This is a gap of 2.2 on a 100 point scale, which seems small at first but then you realize that 247’s scale basically realistically goes from 80 – 100.  Since Harbaugh took over, this gap has widened to 2.7 – Michigan is 89.7 and OSU is 92.4.  This is a massive gap and basically the difference between a high 3-star average recruit and a mid-4-star average recruit on 247’s system… across every single recruit.  We are getting dominated in terms of talent.

I think that’s fairly obvious to everyone.  What’s more interesting to me is the uptick in OSU’s recruiting since Meyer started.  From 2000 – 2011, OSU’s average player score was 87.2, or a mid-high 3-star.  Since 2012, OSCU’s average player score has been 92.2, or a fairly solid 4-star.  This is a massive, massive increase – at a difference of +5.0, it’s actually more than the gap between OSU and Michigan today that I just mentioned of 2.7.  Again, there are some data integrity issues with 247 for some of the 2000’s years, but no matter what this is a tremendous increase in recruiting performance.

Here’s where I need to take a little detour and just state right now that if you insist on burying your head in the sand and don’t believe that paying recruits (etc. “cheating”) is 1) happening in college football despite the mountains of evidence, and 2) preventing Michigan from recruiting better, then the rest of this diary is not for you.  Just don’t read it and please don’t bother commenting.  Debates where both sides can’t agree on the facts don’t lead to anything, and I’m frankly not interested in wasting time.  I’m not going to try to lay out evidence to convince you other than quickly summarizing the following:

  • We know that much of the SEC is shady, from Saban on down, and is paying players
  • We know that Hugh Freeze was doing shady things and paying players (Laquan Treadwell cash photo)
  • We know that Clemson is paying players and funneling payments through religious venues (there is literally an article about this online)
  • We know that Georgia is paying players (Isaiah Wilson)
  • We know that Rashan Gary was offered ~$300K
  • Interim AD Jim Hackett himself literally said publically that people were trying to pay Rashan
  • John Bacon’s book elaborates on the Gary situation, discusses the issues more in detail (a Michigan coach is dejected because a recruit just got a brand new car in his driveway from another school, and he gives up on the recruitment knowing that kid wants money comes to mind), and literally has a quote from Harbaugh saying “it’s hard to beat the cheaters”
  • Seth of MGoBlog– on the board on this very site – has stated what the going rate for a Georgia 4-star under the table is and has also mentioned that Isaiah Wilson was coming to Michigan until Georgia made an offer he couldn’t refuse last minute
  • Andy Staples of The Athletic literally just wrote yesterday that  “Harbaugh either doesn’t know what a team that can compete with Ohio State looks like or — more likely — knows and has elected not to try to wade into the same recruiting waters.  Ohio State doesn’t compete with Michigan for players.  It competes with Clemson, Alabama and Georgia for players.  Only by signing multiple players that those schools want can a program join that club.  But that’s difficult to do, and it requires a choice Harbaugh has thus far seemed unwilling to make.”  Even the mainstream media is on to it.

Since it is a fact that Ole Miss was paying players during Hugh Freeze’s tenure and Georgia is currently paying players under Kirby Smart, I hypothesized that we would see a significant uptick in recruiting success during these coaches’ respective tenures.  I was absolutely right, as the data shows:

Ole Miss and Georgia Annual Recruiting Rank Since 2000 (247 Sports Composite)

Using the same 247 dataset, I found an absurd increase of ~8 spots (due to rounding) in class rankings between Freeze’s Ole Miss tenure and non-Freeze coaches over the same time frame.  The increase in average player score was 4.5 – this is the equivalent of going from a 3.5-star to a 4-star, or a 4-star to a 4.5-star on average.  Georgia’s data is even more absurd – historically, the school already recruited really well.  However, since Smart took over in 2016, Georgia’s average class rankings increased ~5 spots and the increase in average player score was an absolutely bonkers 5.2.  The data would suggest that it is ludicrous to say that paying players doesn’t materially improve recruiting – both Ole Miss and Georgia have seen their star average essentially go up by half a star or more when they have been paying players.

Now, to bring it all back to Michigan and OSU and Meyer’s +5.0 improvement in average player score – based on this, is it really so crazy that OSU is paying players, at least on the margin?  Yes, I understand that Meyer was a championship-winning coach at Florida, but can that fact alone draw countless 5-star, all-world recruits from Texas, California, and the Deep South?  Columbus isn’t really that much warmer than Ann Arbor, and it’s not like it’s a more attractive destination than staying in the South or the West Coast.  It’s likely not just Meyer and the excellent football that is attracting at least some of these recruits – there’s probably a little financial juice to get them over the line.

And it doesn’t have to be all financial – it can be other benefits.  Less stringent academic standards, for example (Fields taking only online classes ring a bell?).  Free cars, tattoos, meals, entertainment, etc., for example.  My point here is that given what we know about Urban Meyer and his willingness to bend the rules to get an edge (I’m not going to list Meyer’s transgressions, as I’m sure everyone is aware), is it really so crazy to think that OSU might be utilizing unfair edges in recruiting that gets them that incremental 5-star and those several incremental 4-stars relative to Michigan? 

I am certainly not arguing that every kid that goes to OSU, Georgia, Clemson, Alabama is going there for money – obviously they have excellent football programs.  I’m just saying that maybe instead of three 5-stars, they can sign five 5-stars, or twelve 4-stars instead of eight.  Over 4 or 5 years, these numbers add up a lot – there’s way more bullets in the chamber to hit on elite players, obviously.

It actually wasn’t even Meyer that started OSU down this path – they did that before with Tressel, who already had plenty of smoke for payments and impermissible benefits while at Youngstown State.  You can go to Michigan’s 247 board where several members who have connections / played football in that area confirmed that Tressel was recruiting with cash even back in those days.  I would contend that it is likely that OSU has shifted toward an SEC-style recruiting strategy while the rest of the Big 10 is still stuck with the traditional Big 10 “Midwestern” values strategy (and I’m from Iowa, I know what that means).

It’s been a long diary already, so let me wrap up by simply saying that the point of all this isn’t to point the finger at OSU or any other school.  Frankly, I don’t give a fuck if these schools want to pay kids (many of whom are likely not super financially well-off) lots of money to play football for them.  In fact, I can find no moral argument against it – isn’t this what American capitalism is all about, the ability to monetize your God-given skills without prejudice or penalty?  All I have to say is good for OSU and these southern schools – not all of these kids are going to make it to the NFL, and at the very least they are getting some sort of compensation for their skills and unbelievably hard work in the meantime.  There is no moral indictment of OSU going on here from me (at least in terms of money; Meyer sheltering a wife-abuser is a completely different story).

The point of all this is to try to show – with data – that Michigan is operating at a significant structural disadvantage unless we shed Path A (amateurism and the student-athlete experience) and pursue Path B (a semi-professional enterprise in which players are recruited with money).  Again, we each need to decide individually whether we are fine with Michigan winning 9 – 10 games a year and losing to OSU and never playing for championships while keeping our “integrity,” or whether we want to really compete nationally in college football.  It is absolutely, 100% a binary decision – you simply can’t have both.  I’m sick of people shitting on Harbaugh’s inability to compete with the big boys when he has one hand tied behind his back – he quite literally, based on his record and on the S&P+ data, is doing as well as he possibly can.  We as a school need to decide what we want – if that’s just to be a better version of (hopefully) Wisconsin, Iowa, Stanford, etc. and never compete for championships, that’s totally fine.  Just please don’t be a hypocrite and shit on Harbaugh – or even worse, much, much worse – the players for only having a knife at a gun fight.

P.S. – yes, Wisconsin beat us this year, yes Iowa beat us in 2016 – teams with more talent occasionally drop games.  We all know it happens to OSU too.  The point is the trend line, not small blips in data.  Also, I know that we made a lot of mistakes yesterday and we could have played a better game.  But we got beat by 29 points.  Michigan fixing its errors isn’t going to erase a >4 touchdown deficit.  OSU was just better, because they had better talent.

Comments

Maison Bleue

December 4th, 2019 at 2:04 PM ^

Ah, so someone on the outside paying kids. I thought this was about really cheating, like the University and athletic department being involved with setting up specific booster groups to funnel money to players and recruits. 

Not some dumb asshole trying to be a kids  future financial advisor. Again if you can’t see the difference, and I’ll be more blunt this time, then you are an idiot or trolling, I’m gonna guess both. Have fun in the troll cave.

Mgoblue0205

December 15th, 2019 at 3:02 AM ^

I'm new to this blog, I've been a long time member/poster on Eleven Warriors believe it or not....Anyways, posts like these from Michigan fans are downright embarrassing. They regularly post there about this blog and all the Michigan fans whining about academics and cheating. Go ask Jourdan Lewis if he was allowed to take the classes he wanted to. People act like OSU is SMU of the early 80s. Chase Young sure say what you want, who knows what really happened. Take him off the field, OSU still wins 56-27. I'm a diehard Michigan fan, but I can also be honest about the program. I don't cry cheating, especially since Ohio is and always has been a great state for HS football. Harbaugh is doing things, not cheating but he's doing some stuff that older Michigan coaches wouldn't do. Hiring recruits parents, or their old HS coaches, oversigning etc etc. It's to get an edge and it's not illegal so it's all good. The fact is that Michigan is not getting recruits from Ohio, they aren't winning the battles in Ohio for a Zach Harrison. Let's also look at OSUs incredible run of playmaking QBs during their rivalry dominance. They have backups winning NC's, and transferring and becoming Heisman caliber players, meanwhile Harbaugh's best QB was Jake Rudock for one season. Sure, in the 90s Michigan and OSU in my eyes there wasn't much of a talent gap, Michigan just underachieved. But their records would say otherwise yet we weren't talking about OSU as some unbeatable juggernaut. Newsflash, OSU has always been REALLY talented. The main difference is in the QB play, along with the fact OSU has ran pretty much the same offense since Urban was hired whereas Harbaugh has juggled OCs. OSU gets a 5 star in Fields and his first full season plays lights out, but our so called 5 star senior QB can't play in a big game without committing an unforced turnover. Harbaugh has missed on QBs, he's human it can happen. One thing that gives me as a fan hope is the fact that the QB room next year and beyond will have borderline 5 star McCaffrey, Milton, 4 star McNamara, another 4 star in 2020, and 5-star JJ McCarthy in 2021(assuming he commits). The chances that all of those guys are just serviceable like a Speight or Patterson I feel is slim to none. Leave the cheating talk for the SEC, I mean Bama players drive around in brand new Challengers and Chargers that's how ridiculous it is. Match OSUs intensity for The Game, figure out what to do about the defense, and hopefully McCaffrey is better than people seem to think and maybe the game won't be over at halftime in the Shoe. Sometimes I feel like this entire program needs a kick in the butt, like when Bo took over in '69. I am just so sick of the cliche talk, the Revenge Tours, Who's Got It Better Than Us? Shutup and win something, start acting like a program that hasn't won a conference title in 15 years, and as a player don't act so entitled before ever doing anything on the field. I don't know this to be true but it's just a feeling I get. Other teams around the country don't act and talk so much without backing it up. Obviously Harbaugh is not going to be that guy to change the culture, I just think if he doesn't work out I'd like to see them do away with the "Michigan Man" just don't go so far out of the box for someone like a RichRod that's going to change so much so fast without compromising. Ok I'm rambling...

Bo Harbaugh

December 1st, 2019 at 7:04 PM ^

Tressel set the table, Meyer feasted.

They were already trending towards football factory, then their 'scandal' allowed them to land a win at all costs coach.  They imported the SEC model.

You are 100% correct, it is binary.

I fall on the side of fighting fire with fire and paying players and skipping class.  The student-athlete model exploits players anyways and the UM brand allows the university to make a fortune off of football and basketball...might as well compete at the highest level.

If the NCAA is unwilling to do anything about it, why should we self-police?

MGoStrength

December 1st, 2019 at 7:06 PM ^

I love many things about JH.  A few things that drive me batty is he cares less about The Game than OSU does.  I want him to hate them with the passion that Meyer hates UM.  Second, JH likes to push the envelope, but my understanding is he won't blatantly cheat.  I don't care about amateurism any longer.  It's a joke.  Do what's necessary to beat our rival. 

Now, I think this all changes quickly with the likeness clauses.  I think this changes for next academic year.  I believe coaches like Saban, Sweeney, Smart, & Fisher have an elaborate, deniable, system set in place which requires no direct contact from them, but is absolutely dictated by them to get the players they want.  I don't see JH ever doing this.  When the likeness thing changes schools still won't be allowed to pay players directly.  However, these teams like Bama, Clemson, UGA, etc. will.  So, it will help UM because they have lots of resources, but unless JH/UM are willing to push the envelope and set up a system to get the players they want it still won't help because the elite recruiters will do what's beyond allowed. 

The only way UM starts to recruit as a top 5 team, which is what will be required to compete with OSU is if we do this.  And, I want this.  I can't stomach to continue to be so far behind our biggest and still enjoy being a fan.  So, either we start to do what's needed or I continually phase out my fandom because it's too sad to watch.

bighouse22

December 1st, 2019 at 11:35 PM ^

The reality is that eventually the revenue that UM generates from Football fandom will dry up if they don't find a way to compete with OSU.  They need to figure it out one way or another or Michigan football as we know it will disappear.

You can't have a program that has no reasonable chance at winning the B1G or National Championship and expect to see the revenue it currently generates.  

Either compete or become Harvard.

MGoStrength

December 2nd, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^

He cares, they care and we (the fans) care.  That is why it is so heartbreaking.

I'm sure he cares a lot.  He's obviously a highly successful coach.  I'm just not sure he cares with the same passion/obsession that Meyer does and Day has been able to follow suit with.  

Ask yourself this...if Meyer and JH switched roles could Meyer @ UM beat JH @ OSU?

MGoStrength

December 2nd, 2019 at 2:29 PM ^

IMHO that is part of the problem, at least as it relates to the rivalry.  There is only so much time in the day.  You can't give everything the same level of attention.  So, if you compete and attack everything you're going to leave the most important things less attention.  That passion of attacking EVERYTHING will leave OSU with less time left over to attack at the same level as someone who doesn't care about anything but beating UM.

Mgoblue0205

December 15th, 2019 at 3:23 AM ^

Michigan fans need to face facts. The Jim Harbaugh that took lowly Stanford and beat mighty USC is gone. The Jim Harbaugh that took the 49ers to the Super Bowl is gone. I bleed Maize and Blue, but I don't understand why so many fans refuse to criticize this man. His in game decisions alone should tell you he's not playing with a full deck anymore. Harbaugh doesn't touch the defense correct? And he basically admitted his offense is stale and brought Gattis in....So what is his identity as a head football coach? Revenue? Getting the brand out there? Is it troubling that his best chance to take Michigan to where we thought he would was with Hoke's players in '16? And the fact that if he would've found just a marginally better QB maybe the whole narrative about him changes? After all a good QB wins that Iowa game, a good QB doesn't gift OSU with 2 interceptions, which WAS the real reason we lost that game not the SPOT. Now his teams play completely lackluster on the road. I've never seen such a night and day difference, I know teams play better at home, but it's ridiculous how mentally soft his teams have been on the road these past few seasons. That Stanford team that beat Carroll's USC team had no business doing it. I understand Michigan will never sneak up on OSU, they will always have their full attention. Do what you have to do to match OSUs intensity, and do yourself a favor and stop TALKING before The Game, now this year it was Don Brown telling OSU to be careful. Lol cmon.

MGoStrength

December 2nd, 2019 at 2:19 PM ^

Gold pants, every player talks about how they prep year round, Meyer swearing at his players and coaches to "kick shit out those assholes up north", refusing to say the word Michigan, following every UM recruit position by position on a board and demanding his assistants get players higher ranked every time, never allowing his players to give bulletin board materials.  Have you seen any of Urban's speeches?  Have you ever heard JH speak in this way?

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2019/07/105065/how-do-you-respect-a-rivalry-urban-meyer-final-gold-pants-speech

MGoStrength

December 2nd, 2019 at 9:12 AM ^

Are you saying, that after watching the results of the game, and comparing JH and Meyer talk about the game, that he cares as much as Meyer?  Maybe he does and he keeps it in house, but that seems unlikely. 

Meyer's hatred and preparation for UM permeates every time he talks about it.  I don't see that from JH.  Where is the cultural hatred for OSU?  Where is the UM version of gold pants?  Is UM following every OSU recruit and demanding a better player at every position?  Meyer is on the record for doing all those things. 

I just get the sense the current culture of OSU ever since Hayes got there has been built upon a hatred for beating UM.  They are obsessed with it.  UM has never seemed to have the disdain and passion for beating OSU the way they do for beating us.  I think that needs to shift.  Our #1 goal needs to be to find a culture/system for beating OSU above all else in the same way Hayes, Meyer et. al did.

Mgoblue0205

December 15th, 2019 at 3:27 AM ^

Harbaugh can't even recruit Ohio what does that tell you? That's one of the bigger issues and I get it all of those Ohio kids have seen Michigan win once in their lifetime that they can remember, so when it's that lopsided it's hard to snag a guy like a Zach Harrison. Michigan doesn't have a single kid from Ohio in the 2020 cycle.

bcnihao

December 1st, 2019 at 7:27 PM ^

Thanks for this great data-driven post.  It makes me even more appreciative of Harbaugh, who must find it frustrating to compete on the uneven recruiting field but refuses to throw his own players under the bus--such as when, after the game, the reporter asked about what the difference is between the UM and OSU teams.

Mgoblue0205

December 15th, 2019 at 3:33 AM ^

Lol boohoo, that was so unfair and utter outrage someone asked the question about why OSU is so much better. There's things you can say without throwing your kids under the bus. Here's one that's never came out of Harbaugh's mouth. ACCOUNTABILITY. How about, I have to do a better job approaching this game etc etc. Anything other than his lame response. Uneven recruiting field, yup...OSU is SMU of the 80s. All their players are highly paid. Does Harbaugh even try to recruit Ohio? I mean Harbaugh is just the greatest, nevermind that coach in East Lansing that beat Urban's OSU teams several times and won championships with mostly 3 star recruits and some 4 stars sprinkled in. Sorry, big Michigan fan but I'm tired of the Harbaugh gets a free pass. Not after 5 years of this.

Brian Griese

December 1st, 2019 at 7:28 PM ^

Great data and I agree with the overall theme of your post: Sadly, I thought the CFP and BIG Divisions were a terrible idea considering Michigan’s position. Example: 1998 Michigan lost two non-con games, got whooped by OSU and still managed to be BIG Ten Champs. They then got a New Years bowl against a decent SEC team that they splattered and finished with a top 12 ranking. Elite season? Not by any stretch. Still somewhat satisfying considering the personnel losses for 97 to 98? I don’t see why not. 
 

If the same scenario happened today you’d be out of the national title hunt two weeks after Labor Day and, by virtue of the OSU loss, no trip to Indy and no shot at a conference title. 
 

My point is, now only the elite and for some fucking reason MSU (more on that in a minute) have had any realistic shot at the ‘playoffs’ and there are no backdoor paths to a conference co-championship anymore. Recruits aren’t dumb.  Forget the supposed bagmen for a minute and think about this: fewer teams can call themselves conference champions now and even fewer have a shot to win it all. If you don’t think recruits want to play for the ‘winners’ you’re crazy. 
 

With all that being sad, there’s still one thing I don’t understand: other BIG teams have managed to beat OSU (with similar or extremely lower ranked recruiting classes) yet the gap between us and them seems to be increasing. If OSU is really this unstoppable juggernaut, why does PSU seem to be able to keep things close with them 4 years running? How on the world did Iowa and Purdue not only beat Urban Meyer but full on boat race him? And the kicker, here were MSU’s results against OSU under Meyer:

2012, lost by 1

2013, won by 10

2014, lost by 12

2015, won by 3

2016, lost by 1

2017, got curb stomped 

2018,  lost by 20

Is that outstanding? No. Would I sign up for a 7 year run against OSU with similar results right now if I could? Yep. So my question is this, if MSU with their 3 stars had a 5 year run where they won 2x and lost 2 more by a single point, why can’t we? To me, recruiting is a problem, but it isn’t *the* problem. 
 

 

jcorqian

December 1st, 2019 at 8:17 PM ^

I can't explain MSU and Dantanio - hate to give him credit - is a damn good coach.  I don't know if anyone can explain it other than his pact with the devil was in full effect back then.  But really it's just the luck thing - he hit on a lot of poorly-regarded recruits.  Now his classes don't have as many hits, and they don't have as much talent.

Again, just because it's possible doesn't mean it's probable.  There's a good bit of luck in there, just like with Auburn vs. Bama.  I would note that it's not like every one of our losses have been blowouts to OSU either, going back to Hoke even.

Overall, I'm with you.  I'd trade for that 7-year run against OSU instantly.

chunkums

December 1st, 2019 at 8:43 PM ^

To be honest, I'm not sure how any of that is a rebuttal to my point. OSU dedicates time in every single practice to the Michigan game according to Ryan Day. I doubt anyone else on the schedule gets that treatment. Every time they play Michigan they are extremely dialed in and have a special gameplan just for us, even though we're a less talented team.

Brian Griese

December 1st, 2019 at 9:21 PM ^

Penn state’s total point differential 2016 to present against OSU is -10. Michigan is at -66. Michigan recruits at a similar level to Penn State and if you believe the authors of this blog and most board posters Penn State is run by a complete bozo. 

I find it hard to believe OSU hasn’t been ‘dialed in’ against PSU outside of their sudden bout with fumbilitis this year. Sorry, I don’t believe this whole special game plan thing as some debilitating reason we can’t even keep things close with them. Michigan has the same opportunity to return the favor on them and we either choose not to or what we’re drawing up isn’t working. 

Lastly, if you think Urban looked at 2017 Michigan and 2017 PSU and decided he needed to do some special game plan for Michigan but not one for PSU with all the talent they had then I’ll just see my way out of this discussion. 

The Barwis Effect

December 2nd, 2019 at 7:23 AM ^

Let me know the next time they X out all the Ps on campus.   Or get gold pants for beating them.  Or sing that they don’t give a damn about the whole state of Pennsylvania.  Don’t your own stats prove out that they don’t care about beating Penn State as much as they do a Michigan?  Two similar teams based on recruiting rankings, yet they pound the shit out of one of them every time they play.  

Mgoblue0205

December 15th, 2019 at 3:40 AM ^

I don't think you'll like the answer Brian. It's because Michigan is soft. Not physically, mentally. Watch Harbaugh's teams on the road against anyone with a pulse. Why did they play so dreadfully against Wisky and PSU this year on the road? Neither of those teams are great, in fact they are both one trick ponies. I honestly believe it's a culture problem along with a tremendous gap at the most important position on the field.

Kevin Holtsberry

December 2nd, 2019 at 1:35 PM ^

Penn State has out recruited Michigan in some ways and has great luck with Ohio State.  OSU had three fumbles (at least two inside their own 25) this year which made the game competitive.  Last big win in Happy Valley had a multiple special teams breakdowns.  Difference is when UM had chance to win they haven't pulled it off.

JamesBondHerpesMeds

December 1st, 2019 at 7:43 PM ^

I’d love to see you correlate recruiting rankings with a university’s academic rigor, acceptance rate, and other factors.

Just hypothesizing, but I’m going to guess there’s a generally inverse relationship. 

jbrandimore

December 1st, 2019 at 7:52 PM ^

Thanks for the work.

I do disagree a bit that this is a binary choice (cheat/no cheat).

There is an obvious but different third way, and in my view, it is the most appropriate for Michigan.

We should be trying to identify and profit from inefficiencies in the “star market.”

The general problem in the data you present on recruiting data is it relies on two very questionable assumptions.

1. Star data is accurate 

2. Stars and ratings matter, but the position doesn’t.

As any Michigan fan can tell you, all 5 stars do not pan out and some positions seem more likely to flame out than others.

 

What should be examined is can the similarities between 5 stars that work out and those that don’t be identified. Can it be determined what star ratings are being based on and when those ratings might take things into account that do not matter?

For example: I care what the height of LT prospects are. Not so much NTs. And so on.

That is how you beat the OSUs and Alabamas of the world without paying in cash. Develop analytical techniques to identify the areas where the star system is likely to be wrong, and exploit that inefficiency.