WTKA Roundtable 2/1/2024: It's Not Play for Pay It's Play for Work Comment Count

Seth February 1st, 2024 at 10:46 AM

Things Discussed:

  • Lost Herbert: Recruiting against Jim is tough.
  • DC: Zach Orr has a couple of NFL opportunities now so figuring that out will be the most important thing.
  • Concerned that this administration is going to Bennie Oosterbaan Sherrone Moore's program. Needs to not just support but lead the transition to a new version of the college football landscape.
  • Beefing up recruiting department: can criticize Jim Harbaugh here because he spent recruiting jobs on hires like Stalions and Shemy.
  • Sherrone going hard for ND's Chad Bowden. Fended off Harbaugh for Grant Newsome, fighting for Elston.
  • Warde: His "transformational not transactional" interview was the end for us; he's not the guy for the future. Transactional means fair; when you say you don't want that you're saying you don't want the players getting a fair deal.
  • Michigan's culture doesn't have to be these 1930s ideas. Hunter Dickinson would be here if we had this working right.
  • There's more in the tank: Michigan's Athletics department doesn't need to be taking money for naming buildings.
  • NCAA dysfunction has to be part of this. We should be leading the way towards fixing the system, not pretending the old system still works. Players don't benefit from everyone being a free agent because it makes them all replaceable. That system sucks for everybody because there's no investment in the players, there's less time to get to know your system, and nobody's getting an education.
  • Right now we're hanging onto a system that's already dead, falling into a terrible oligarchic system. System should be one that forces the universities to be stuck with the players they get, because it makes them responsible for the player's education and development. Right now the NCAA is antithetical to the higher ideal the NCAA was set up.
  • Seth: communist economies—that's what the NCAA model is—require a black market. The cheating is part of the system.
  • What we're seeing is the fall of that system, and what Michigan should be doing is leading the way to a new system.
  • How? Pay our players to be in a Super Bowl commercial advocating for a player's union, which we start here.
  • Seth & Brian argue whether the history of Oosterbaan/1950s is relevant today.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Seth came on early to talk Lions here. Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

That guy's making 7 figures a year and telling other people not to get paid.

Comments

Hensons Mobile…

February 1st, 2024 at 2:37 PM ^

The institutional issues that create barriers for the basketball team (though somehow not the football team) are a concern. Not only does it limit the pool of coaches who would come here, but it also limits the pool of coaches who could succeed here. (As an aside, I hope we're not about to find out that's true with football, too.)

On Juwan specifically, I'm not terribly persuaded by the whole "If only we had Hunter and Love and/or Shannon." Would the team be better? Obviously. But last year's team did have Hunter and two guys drafted in the top 15 of the NBA, one of whom was his son. And his son's biggest problem was his lack of interest in defense. Also the year before that is papered over by having gone on a nice mini-tournament run after we got over-seeded.

I'm not going to throw a tantrum if Juwan comes back next year. I do think he was a very respected NBA assistant for a reason, so he's obviously capable of being a coach. I'm less confident about his ability to run a college program.

PeteM

February 1st, 2024 at 2:15 PM ^

I'm almost always the last to say "fire someone".  I also think the argument that all of Howard's early success was due to Beilein isn't persuasive.  Franz may come because of the Beilien connection but was coached by Howard. Howard got us Brown, Smith and Dickinson who were big parts of that that 2020-21 Elite 8 season. 

That said, this year is a disaster. Howard needs to make a case that change is coming whether that's in his staff, his approach to recruiting/the portal or a combination of both.

Seth

February 1st, 2024 at 5:35 PM ^

They didn't want to do scholarships, which was okay at first because there were so many guys on the GI Bill. But then they were stingy with them so the team was like half the size. And Michigan didn't think we needed to pay assistants to recruit all year long like MSU and OSU and ND were doing. And while every other major school went on a building spree Crisler let Michigan's facilities crumble. Yost Fieldhouse was so run down when Cazzie Russell came to visit that they didn't show it to him! Crisler also held back on recruiting Black players as MSU broke through the "gentleman's agreement" to only have one guy, and was part of the group of administrators who were against putting games on TV.

You can go through that era and find many accomplishments of Crisler as well. I don't want to make it sound like he was a BAD guy. But he was a stingy guy, and that really hurt football during a time when major changes in the game opened the door for schools like MSU and Alabama and Texas and Oklahoma to pass Michigan, who should (thanks to Crisler's earlier efforts) have started those decades in the best shape of anybody.

Don

February 1st, 2024 at 6:32 PM ^

“And while every other major school went on a building spree Crisler let Michigan's facilities crumble”

Building sprees require money—I wonder where the other schools’ athletic departments got the cash for them…was Crisler hampered by budget constraints? Was the top U-M administration less supportive of athletics than other schools were? It wouldn’t surprise me if that was the case.

Seth

February 1st, 2024 at 8:58 PM ^

Starting with MSU the other schools' presidents were using the GI bill to expand. They let in a bunch of students, used the money to build a new dorm, let in more students, repeat. The last round paid for the new stadium.

Paying the players started through the alumni associations but once it was legalized by all the conferences the athletic departments took it over, and money came in from donors. The under the table payments were often from construction guys, who were doing cash work under the table.

kehnonymous

February 1st, 2024 at 12:04 PM ^

You know how, in the wake of Harbaugh's departure, a lot of people were big mad at Warde for fumbling the ball and a lot of other people, myself included, were pushing back and pointing to the ample indications that Harbaugh was going to leave for a Super Bowl opportunity anyways, regardless of how well he did or didn't get along with Warde, and that it's dumb to blame every Bad Thing that's happened, including 9/11 and the Kennedy assassination, on Warde's passive-aggressive inaction?

Well, you can totally blame Warde for operating in a pre-NIL paradigm in this day and age and I am completely good for consciously uncoupling with him for that.  (to say nothing of sitting on the Pearson allegations)

Zetroit

February 1st, 2024 at 12:06 PM ^

Good lord, when it comes to the last few posts regarding Warde, Seth and Brian have ALL the right takes. Can you two just be our AD? I’m only half kidding… my sincere request is that you bring on the Board of Regents as guests and ask these hard questions. 

jmblue

February 1st, 2024 at 12:09 PM ^

  • Michigan's culture doesn't have to be these 1930s ideas. Hunter Dickinson would be here if we had this working right.

Was it just an NIL issue, and not also the chance to play for a national title contender?   Dickinson saw his two most talented teammates go pro from a team that was already not good enough to make the tournament.  If he were still here, we'd obviously not be as bad as now, but would we be any better than we were last season?

JBLPSYCHED

February 1st, 2024 at 1:22 PM ^

I honestly don't mean to by argumentative or cynical but if there was a $500K+ difference b/t what KU offered him and what Michigan offered him, that probably mattered a lot to a guy with a very uncertain future in the high paying ranks of professional basketball. The fact that KU is a title contender and rolled out the red carpet for him were secondary factors.

mwolverine1

February 1st, 2024 at 3:53 PM ^

Dickinson was underpaid at Michigan. Contacts in the DC area connected to Maryland/Georgetown tampered him into the portal by offering him a substantial raise. Once he hit the open market, Kansas came in and put together a better pitch (money + winning) than anyone else.

Michigan potentially could have staved off his portal entry by paying him more. But if it ever came down to our pitch vs Kansas's, he'd choose Kansas.

DonAZ

February 1st, 2024 at 12:09 PM ^

There's a part of me that thinks the end game here is a splitting off of football and basketball from the university, making them separate legal and economic entities, and then forming a league of such entities, with players contracted to play.  Not all universities will do this, but the big-time programs will (eventually), and we'll have the "super-conference" alignment so many have spoken of.

mGrowOld

February 1st, 2024 at 12:26 PM ^

I think what you just described is the end game.  Football and basketball break away from the non-revenue sports and form a super league.  The best suggestion I've seen on that concept is Premier league concept where the top 50 teams play each other and every year the bottom 5-10 are "regulated" out of tier 1 and the top 5-10 from tier 2 are promoted.

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:38 PM ^

This is what people here keep forgetting.

College football didn't become popular because it had the "best" athletes.  It became popular because it allowed people connected to the university (students, alumni, faculty, staff, families, locals, etc.) to see "their" kids playing against their rival schools' kids.

I am certain that, if somehow the situation came about (again) that Michigan and osu could ONLY field walk-on students ("real" students with no intention of playing pro sports after school, not coming from football-factory high schools like IMG and not receiving any form of NIL, inducements or other benefits to play), it would still be just as in demand by *our* viewers as ever.  It may not be as "sexy" to neutral fans and networks, with sloppy game play compared to what we have now... but it would be no less intense.  

*THAT* is what created such a massive following for college football over the first ~80 years of the sport.

DonAZ

February 1st, 2024 at 1:39 PM ^

I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is a greater degree of separation will be necessary to insulate the university from liability as football (and maybe basketball) takes on a contract relationship between "team" and "player."  I don't see the players being "employees" but rather contracted to the team for the service of their athletic play.  But again ... I'm not a lawyer.

kehnonymous

February 1st, 2024 at 12:34 PM ^

I have a few friends who are creatives and/or adjacent to others in that space and so I've heard a lot of them bemoan the umpteen number of times they're asked to photograph an event or make a painting or perform a musical set and are fed the bullshit line that, while they can't be given monetary compensation for their work, they will get exposure that helps to build their brand, and that's EXACTLY how "transactional vs transformational" comes across.

crg

February 1st, 2024 at 4:45 PM ^

Well... are these friends using their own cameras, art supplies, studios and other resources to create works for other groups that have no immediate connection to them?

Or are they art/photography/etc. students being provided the raw materials, equipment, studio space, instructor time and other support measures to create these works - with the explicit understanding upon their entry into the program that they are learning the craft (possibly even with the final work being part of the cost of entry into said program)?

The first scenario is more transactional while the latter is certainly more transformational.

As with anything... the details matter.

Ernis

February 1st, 2024 at 8:51 PM ^

That’s a fair point, but to bring the comparison in line with the subject at hand, if the school turns around and sells the artwork for hundreds of millions of dollars and all the artists have to show for it is room, board, and *ahem* “transformation”, then it’s transactional again, but a grossly imbalanced transaction.

And when options are available for artists to enter into less asymmetrically beneficial agreements, the expected result is that they’ll do so, and before long the fetching price for the “transformational” artwork stabilizes closer to the level of a student exhibit at the local community college.

crg

February 2nd, 2024 at 7:08 AM ^

With your point, this issue is more about haggling about valuation - nothing fundamental about the procedures themselves.  At the core of the argument ("transactional" vs "transformational"), it should not matter if the "value" of the final work is $1 or $1B.

Also - in your scenario - if the end result of the instructional process is the student now having the ability to produce works that are worth $100M+, then isn't the "value" of that instruction worth at least that?  Would it be wrong to consider that value of that first "work" by the student to be fair payment in return for that instruction - especially when they can now go on and produce numerous other works of equal or greater value after they finish being a student?

los barcos

February 1st, 2024 at 12:44 PM ^

Can we have a conversation about what exactly NIL actually is? Is that a stupid question?

It seems to me it's used as a catchall for everything - but what, specifically, about M's NIL approach is worse than say, Notre Dames? 

What should NIL be? What is it actually? I don't even think the NCAA knows.

Here's my totally uninformed stab at the dark:

  • Some schools, ie Tenn, are actually funneling AD money/donations into collectives that are then going to players. So, they can say, for example, we have a budget of $12mil - Coach, go do what you want with it.  This is pay for play and is currently illegal.
  • Other schools, ie Michigan, seperate their own AD money from collective money.  Collectives have to raise their own money third hand. So, theoretically, Sherrone Moore can't tell recruit X we have a set amount of money promised to him, because he isn't working with the collective. Sherrone can point the recruit to the collective, who can then dole out the cash. But, without the AD support, these collectives don't have the financial resources to compete with the former.

What I can't figure out is how player's individual agents come into play here and/or how national brand contracts play a role. I cannot believe your local truck dealership is putting in hundreds of thousands of dollars into the piggy bank - I imagine the big money is coming from national brands. In JJ's case, this was Alo Yoga. Others, like Caleb Williams, have inked deals with Wendys, Dr Pepper, etc. Kyle McCord had some major sweatpant apparel company.

It's clear that M's established players did well with NIL, but it sounds to me the collectives can't afford to also funnel that money to the recruits / non-established entities.  But M also has a major brand that could attract companies, that these other schools can't offer.

What would M need to do right now to improve it's NIL? Put the backing of the AD behind these collectives - thereby breaking NCAA rules? 

Hensons Mobile…

February 1st, 2024 at 12:58 PM ^

There are too many moving pieces.

  • NIL collectives are, by rule, not part of the athletic department or the domain of a coach or athletic director.
  • The NCAA does not enforce its own rules. (All NIL collectives violate NCAA rules for pay for play and inducements.)
  • The NCAA rules (which they generally don't enforce) may very well violate anti-trust laws, and will be determined in court.
  • Title IX exists.
  • Other education and employment laws also exist.

It's a lot to reconcile.

The most straightforward thing that a school can do right now is support collectives in fundraising (since the NCAA has shown it doesn't care about them) and then help connect their players to the NIL collectives, which is explicitly permissible under NCAA rules.

And isn't that exactly what we're doing? The problem is some or all of the following:

  • We have poorly run collectives.
  • The athletic department does not do enough to help support and promote the collectives.
  • The fan base, no matter how large and well off, isn't motivated to donate. There could be a number of factors, one of which is the Michigan exceptionalism mindset that still permeates much of this board and the athletic department. Relatedly, our exceptionalism has proven successful on the football field.

But with all that being said, given that Michigan is doing generally the only thing it can do, I don't really understand what larger point Warde is even trying to make when he talks about transactional versus transformational. He doesn't object to collectives, and that is "transactional."

JBLPSYCHED

February 1st, 2024 at 1:13 PM ^

I think he supports our collectives in the sense that they exist but he's not out there communicating directly with Michigan's many BIG TIME MONEY DONORS and telling them that if they want our top players to stay another year (or for the younger ones to not transfer), they need to pony up and write large checks. This is what the other schools are doing and what Brian and others think Warde is signaling that he doesn't believe in when he says "transformational not transactional."

Hensons Mobile…

February 1st, 2024 at 1:23 PM ^

But it’s still a contradiction, right? He doesn’t say they’re bad but then he also says something that suggests they are bad.

And his actions suggest he objects to them. It does seem like he actually doesn’t like them and only tolerates them because he has to, which means he’s actively sabotaging the athletic department.

Sigh.

JBLPSYCHED

February 1st, 2024 at 2:38 PM ^

I'm inclined to agree with you, I was just clarifying/elaborating on your point about the inherent contradictions. None of us really knows what goes on inside the AD or how Warde handles these things. But his consistent inaction as well as his public statements provide tea leaves for interested outside parties to try and interpret.

One of the common takes is that Warde represents the traditional version of Michigan (athletics and writ large), including the "we're different than those other schools" haughty attitude that holds us back in a rapidly changing college sports landscape. Sam and Brian and many others argue that we're behind OSU and the SEC schools (and others) and rapidly falling further behind as long as someone with old school Michigan arrogance (like Warde) is in charge.

It's hard to argue with that even though it's almost all based on speculation and inference. But then again that's what we're here for, right?

schreibee

February 1st, 2024 at 4:32 PM ^

I believe what is meant by "transformational not transactional," and an example of what Michigan is or isn't doing in NIL can be summed up in one athlete: Cam Ward.

Ward made it clear, perhaps through representatives, that he was leaving the suddenly not major conference WSU for "greener" pastures. This being publicly accepted knowledge meant no Michigan related media ever discussed him as a possibility for Michigan to pursue as a transfer.

He was plainly transactional, not transformational, so right away "not a fit".

And he was clearly going to the highest bidder, including visiting multiple colleges while saying he was also considering entering the draft. Then he did in fact declare for the draft. This in turn got him the desired outcome of raising the "NIL" offers (and more power to him), so he removed his name from the draft & transferred to yes that Miami. 

Now - Ward is an extreme example of what's going on across the board in top level HS players & potential transfers. But extreme though he may be, he embodies the entire spectrum of issues facing Michigan in its approach to the NIL conundrum. 

How should Michigan play it? Pursue not the Cam Wards, but perhaps be less adamant with other less overt players? 

Or go full Cam Ward? In which case I'm sure they can still get him!

Hensons Mobile…

February 1st, 2024 at 6:55 PM ^

Interesting. I think you're saying Warde Manuel's view is, yes, we have NIL available, but that is secondary to the Michigan experience. Come for the Michigan, stay for the NIL. Any NIL you get is just bonus pocket change, and therefore mostly inconsequential to where you decide to be.

And surely we all agree that spending willy nilly without any regard for the fit or player has failed for Miami and A&M.

I think as others have stated, though, it's a false choice. You can recruit for fit and culture and compensate players with fair market value at the same time.

But I think your explanation has helped me understand better what Warde is meaning to say. Thanks.

bronxblue

February 1st, 2024 at 1:33 PM ^

I'll again push back against the idea that paying a lot to players is the only way to go.  Michigan barely has any transfer losses in football and brought in some high-profile guys because they looked like one of the best teams in the country and paid well enough that guys were happy.  Texas A&M and Miami pay out way more than most schools but guys leave in droves because they're varying degrees of tire fires on the field.

Dickinson left UM because they didn't look close to contending for a title; I doubt the money difference between KU and UM was so vast that had UM looked like a top-15/20 outfit he'd have bolted.

I again ask for this site, which constantly harps on the shittiness of the NIL program at UM, to provide some evidence for it.  Do some investigations, get some guys off the record to provide quotes, get some really numbers, etc.  Because it's been years of these claims and yet whenever pressed for details they don't appear.  I'm sure UM isn't at the cutting edge of the NIL race but the narrative around them being at the ass-end of everyone else needs to have more evidence than "trust me, bro."  I'd be fine proven wrong with evidence they are lagging behind everyone but hell, they nearly got Caleb Love to attend UM from UNC and that, I'm sure, wasn't cheap.

maizedNblued

February 1st, 2024 at 2:02 PM ^

NLI in theory was a good concept but it was implemented with awful explanation and governance. In ten years, you will see a somewhat different landscape in college football....I highly doubt private schools like Northwestern, Vandy, BC, Wake Forest, Miami, Duke, USC, Syracuse, TCU, Baylor will keep up in football - they barely are now. Notre Dame will be forced into joining a league and they will only survive longer solely based on their tv deal but it will eventually fade out now that Peacock has the B10. USC's brand and recruiting base will last a bit longer and their move into the B10 will certainly help.

Within 15 years, the complaints from students will grow louder as they crisscross and traverse across the country - I could see more conference shuffling with private schools jumping into the ACC (if it survives) as, public schools exit, as their only way of competing on the gridiron.

Say goodbye to the little guys as the bigger public schools will just pass on the accrued cost to their residents and their fans. 

At some point, it will be just the B10 and the SEC that lives (think AFC/NFC) and they'll start recognizing that they need to regionalize the schools into divisions, especially after a union is formed and complaints come flying in. 

In a way, it is kind of sad it has come to this - this will eventually trickle down to massive high schools that have big time football which are now being televised on ESPN.

 

Sultans17

February 1st, 2024 at 2:25 PM ^

How many days is the "special transfer portal" for players of teams that lost their coach?  30 days?  Jim Harbaugh announced Jan 24th so there's 22 days left if that's accurate? 

Should be be keeping a countdown clock on this?  So far it appears that we've fended off Grant to Texas and Graham to Miami. At least I hope so. Wonder how this works, and can we all breathe a sigh of relief at some point?

Bo Harbaugh

February 1st, 2024 at 2:57 PM ^

The last 3 years of UM football were incredible, but were the result of unparalleled talent identification, development and retention.  It took an absolute perfect storm of elite coaches, culture and player development to reach those heights - all done so against a slanted playing field vs. OSU and SEC talent acquisition models.

Thankfully, we won the National Title just before CFB transitioned from pseudo amateur athletics to full on professional minor league athletics - because I have no faith, like Brian, in Ward getting this right.  Beyond Warde, UM has been behind the times since the BCS and CFB playoff eras began, and it's why we needed a generational all-time coach and staff to even remain on the playing field with OSU and SEC.

Let's be honest...what would Harbaugh have accomplished at UM with rosters like OSU, UGA, BAMA?  I'm guessing he would have had Saban like results.  

The danger of the last 3 season run (and I wouldnt give it up for anything), is that UM becomes complacent at the worst time possible - as everything in CFB is changing.  Warde is the definition of inaction, and we are seeing the results with the basketball program already, and hopefully it does not leak over into the football program going forward.

UofM Die Hard …

February 1st, 2024 at 5:39 PM ^

Damn it, I really wanted to hear basketball talk...honestly. Not because it will be fun at all to hear, but it has to be talked about on the radio airwaves. 

It will be painful, but it will be necessary. 


 

m83econ

February 1st, 2024 at 5:49 PM ^

"Communist market" is an oxymoron.  College football was a centralized command structure, but the rules have been tossed aside (except for the enemies of the state).