Def worrisome. Who cares about other sports though? Tuition and tax dollars shouldn’t be spent on the likes of golf, baseball, or gymnastics at the expense of academics/research. The issue is way worse for non blue chip universities too.
You’re right. Brian Griese has a good point regarding Title IX, but I think reassessing some of those implications are going be necessary. The expenditures for revenue sports are already wildly imbalanced. Seems like the path forward would be to separate hoops and fball from the rest of college sports, with every other sport following Title IX. Then go to the courts. Players unionizing could help generate this change.
Good lord, when it comes to the last few posts regarding Warde, Seth and Brian have ALL the right takes. Can you two just be our AD? I’m only half kidding… my sincere request is that you bring on the Board of Regents as guests and ask these hard questions.
Look I agree that player development is not what it was, but the Livers comp is just bad. Livers was hitting corner threes and playing very solid D as a frosh. Also we knew from the start there was going to be a dropoff in player development with Juwan. Aside from my other coaching crush, Jay Wright, Beilien was the absolute best, so it's not really knock on Juwan if he (and pretty much anyone else left coaching in 2023) can't turn TWill into one of the very best players in the country (likely an All-American if no injury).
I thought Juwan might've been able to overcome that with recruiting, but clearly the wheels have come off. Biggest indictment of Juwan for me is the defense, and defensive buy-in. Ironically the worst embodiment of this issue was his son Jett, (def not Jace though, I respect his hustle)
I doubt it. Haven’t watched Twill this season much but the previous two he was one of our weakest links. Bielien might’ve been the best but Livers is just flat out a way better player. It ain’t close.
Never wanted Harbaugh fired in 2020 and it wasn’t Harbaugh leaving to the NFL that made me want to Warde to be fired. It was the fact I think he’s WAY overpaid and when it came to big issues like NIL (or paying players) and sign gate, I felt like he dropped the ball. Given recent news I could be wrong about NIL, but I still think assistants and the likes of Santa Ono are far more valuable than any AD, especially one whose decisions are effectively made for him.
I was all in on Juwan, and so was everyone else. Don’t blame him for that hire at all. NIL failure is a different story. Warde can rectify this situation if he gets Minter and Herbert to stay.
All the fire Warde chatter because Harbaugh is off to the NFL is annoying. That’s a bad reason to fire the guy, but there are plenty of potential good ones. As this post suggests let’s see how he planned and whether there’s a lot of continuity with the old staff.
Warde makes $1.23 Million. More than Santa Ono or Jesse Minter. And the guy spent the last few years acting like NIL doesn’t exist! If you’re the THIRD highest paid UM employee (after Harbaugh and the Michigan medicine CEO), how can you be MIA on one of the only issues you can effect.
Whose job is best suited to rectify issues with NIL? Harbs or Warde? It's not all on Warde but he's likely one of the most important stakeholders in this. Again he is paid $1.23M so do you think it's unreasonable at that price to expect our AD to make it easier for top talent to choose Michigan?
Exactly. Gotta be better. Your job pretty much boils down to 1. Hiring and retaining good football and hoops coaches. 2. Dealing w/ any NCAA & Big10 issues. 3. NIL/fundraising
All the event management stuff, operations, marketing, and any of the other sport programs will either be taken care of by staff regardless of any AD involvement, or it really doesn't matter much in the grand scope of things.
The man makes $1.23 million. I'm gonna withhold blaming Warde for #1 & #2, but good lord, the fact that Santa Ono was far and away a better leader this year AND makes LESS money, tells me we can do better. You want to be paid more than Jesse Minter and Santa Ono, gotta show us what that money is buying.
What you described is not a form of sexual harassment. That requires some harassing of a sexual nature. It may be immoral or against some code of conduct, but not the open and shut case you make it out to be
Gotta say your handle is pretty ironic though… Caesar was piping Brutus’s mom, and dude still got an empire
Yes, pay the players. But cmon, Sean Payton makes 18 mil this year and LA rams new stadium cost $5.5 BILLION. Rams and Saints do not have to pay for Olympic swimming pools, gymnastics teams, and 30 other teams no one really cares about.
Plus coaches add value to program and to the players, those salaries are gonna change. Yes there’s some fat to trim off the bone for facilities, but I bet the players rather it spent on the Big House than the golf course.
Agreed. I don’t see any harm in most of them becoming club sports. That’s awesome if you want to pursue your dream of lacrosse, but student tuition $ or the likes of Blake corum shouldn’t have to pay your way
I’m aware this would largely be the case. I don’t see it as a problem for students, or the public if they get relegated to varsity/club sport or canceled all together.
Yeah definitely not that simple. 2 sports make big money, 30-40 sports are all in the red, academic institutions already dump millions into ADs. When it comes to balance sheets it is a bit of a zero sum game. Plus, right now it feels like hoops and football players are subsidizing rich kids sports like hockey, lacrosse, golf...etc. What's wrong with requiring them to break even?
Although to be fair, there are plenty of mens sports that lose money too. Even Michigan hockey is in the red. But Title IX def does make this more contentious.
I assume you mean Athletic Departments (not Universities) could still support non rev sports. My argument is that Universities shouldn't subsidize things like Lacrosse & Gymnastics, but should focus on students & academics.
If you pay fball and hoops players a sizable chunk (which they deserve), no way that's gonna all come from a few downgrades in facilities and AD positions. Universities are already subsidizing. Also, you need a lot less AD overhead when you eliminate the marketing, scheduling, maintenance, facilities...etc. of 30+ teams. Plus, I feel like you're just thinking of those top tier 5-10 programs... how many Big 12 or ACC teams have record studios?
Correct, I remember reading a few years ago that most of these subsidies are in the millions per year. The accounting can get a bit messy, but it still amounts to academic institutions investing millions into non-revenue sports (that regular students don't even attend).
Good for Harbaugh. Although every time this issue arises, I feel like no one ever addresses who really benefits from not paying football & hoops players. Yes, the NCAA is a racket, but hands down the biggest benefactors from not paying "student athletes" are actually other student athletes... (from non-revenue sports).
Instead the blame is always placed on things like coaches salaries, facilities, nebulous accusations of Athletic Department waste...etc. Yet NFL teams have expensive coaches & facilities (more or less), and the players actually benefit from good coaches and facilities. The Detroit Lions do not have a Men's swim team, a Women's field hockey team, plus another 30 other sports all as line items.
My biggest concern is that by not mentioning that other student athletes are the biggest leaches here, and we then proceed to pay players... I'm afraid *Academic* institutions will increasingly subsidize sports, (at the expense of research, lowering tuition, or you know... academics).
You criticize the OP, saying this isn't board worthy.
I then say it is clearly board worthy.
Then you somehow infer that I am all-in for Mr. Mahmoud, the Ayatollah, and the entire destruction of Israel.
Here's the whole story that you seem to be missing: a dude halfway around the world, who used to be very powerful, tweeted about an American football team. Our Wolverines, no less.
This is absolutely board worthy. The ex-president of one of the most influential countries in the world just tweeted about Michigan football. I for one am grateful to the poster who made known a fact, that I would've otherwise been oblivious too.
First off, a proportion of Tuition should absolutely be counted as an expense. Secondly, even if you remove tuition, non-revenue programs are still in the red.
In 2014, all tuition & grants only made up 24% of total expenses
I mean, how many fans are throwing cash at the UM swim program? Is it really that controversial to say that these types of sports lose money?
Put it another way. Where do you think the Millions from not paying players go exactly?
There aren't Owners taking profits like the NFL. Power 5 AD's only make like $500k on avg... but maybe they're hiding it all in the Cayman islands?
While the NCAA & Bowl committees are a different story completely, those bandits only syphon off less than 10% of revenues. 90% still goes to the respective Athletic Dept.
Intentional or not, the main issue is that academic institutions throw millions upon millions to prop up sports that the student body could care less about. These figures are startling: "Nearly 130 athletic departments rely on subsidies for over half their revenue." - Scroll down to the table
Again, I'm 100% behind paying players. I would just make it so an athlete's pay is more in line with the actual profit/value that their sport provides.
Everyone likes to blame coaches, facilities, or some indistinct AD caricature for taking advantage of players not getting paid. But NFL teams spend plenty of cash on player salaries, stadiums, and coaches. They don't have men's lacrosse, and women's volleyball though
How is this ridiculous? I feel like this is the first time someone is actually being honest about the finances of this whole situation. I'm all for paying players but consider the facts:
Nearly all Athletic Departments are in the red
Football and Basketball are the only real revenue/profit generating sports
On the whole, the budgets of all other sports operate in substantial Net Losses
With those facts it's a simple equation: by paying players, athletic departments would have to make that revenue up by eliminating other expenses (i.e. non revenue sports), or borrow more $$$ from the academic/student side (i.e. tuition). It's all the other sports that benefit most from not paying football and basketball players.
If Wagner stays, we are almost certainly going to be better and should win the Big10 outright, (especially with all the talent that is leaving the other Big10 powers) and be a favorite to win it all.
If he leaves, its imposible to know. We are going to rely on Beilien working his magic on nearly every player on our roster in order to impove significant holes in their current game. This is Beilien we are talking about, so there's reason to believe this is very possilbe.
Then there's the question of how our incoming freshman will contribute, since we will count on them for significant backup (or starting) minutes. Personally, I think Iggy and Johns (especially Iggy) are eventually going to be absolute beasts. How long it takes them to get there, remains to be seen.
Kaminsky won every POY award... the Wooden Award, Naismith Award, Associated Press POY, NABC POY, Oscar Robertson Trophy, Sporting News POY....etc. He also lead his team to a Big10 Title, and a Championship game. But yeah... your high school sports Strawman probably makes more sense.
I think you underestimate how good Kaminsky was. I mean the dude won the Wooden award, had a better shot than Wagner, was a great passer, and has an inch or two on Wagner. Granted his potential as a NBA stud was curbed a bit, given he was athletically limited and a Senior.
It’s not a knock on Wagner to say Mo is not the best player in all of college, which Kaminsky was.
Next year with MAAR gone, who is Poole’s backup at the 2? Nunez… Our least heralded recruit? Sure. we can shuffle around a bit, but as far as returning production for positions 2,3, AND 4, we only have Poole, Matthews, & Livers.
Furthermore, barring injury to Wagner or Teske, Davis will in all likelihood be riding the pine again next year. So its 2 years of potential production for both dudes. It’s certainly not OBVIOUS… well, unless you’re John Beilein!
Wait a minute, Guy Fawkes = Beilein?! I never really got a masquerad-ie / anarchist vibe from you, but I guess that Che Guevara tattoo on your shoulder makes a lot more sense now
There must be something we can do to at least get someone at the Atheltic Department thinking about this. It's a win - win - win across the board, with a few disgruntled season ticket holders.
More people in the stand (esp. more rabidly drunk students), is a win for the:
- Team and Beilien
-Game Experience for anyone attending
- Recruiting
- Athletic Department's bottom line in the long run. More people in the stands, and more wins overall translates to:
More people who want to watch Michigan (both on TV & at Cri$ler)
More eyes watching = More Adverti$ing revenue
More wins = higher willingne$$ to pay
Selling more Michigan Apparel = $$$
More Brand Loyalty ... student$ who go to the games while in college are bound to be the alumni with more fervor in the year$ to come. Not to mention it's a hellluva lot easier to be a fan of a winning team and an electric in game experience.
Love this piece... I've been perturbed by this fact for years now. The fact that Nebraska might be a more hostile place to play right now than Crisler is embarrassing.
Mods-- is there anything we, (or you), would recommend doing in order to encourage some of these changes? I’d gladly write a polite letter imploring the athletic department to pursue certain ideas if I knew whom to address it to, and whether it would be well received in first place...
With 10 People in your party, Jolly Pumpkin will be hard to beat, (especially with their outdoor patio upstairs). Go with the Truffle fries and a Truffle pizza... if Truffles are your thing.
Recent Comments
Def worrisome. Who cares about other sports though? Tuition and tax dollars shouldn’t be spent on the likes of golf, baseball, or gymnastics at the expense of academics/research. The issue is way worse for non blue chip universities too.
Seth and Brian please see my comment below. Can you guys be our co-Athletic Directors? Please and thank you!
edit: Sam Webb would be swell too
You’re right. Brian Griese has a good point regarding Title IX, but I think reassessing some of those implications are going be necessary. The expenditures for revenue sports are already wildly imbalanced. Seems like the path forward would be to separate hoops and fball from the rest of college sports, with every other sport following Title IX. Then go to the courts. Players unionizing could help generate this change.
First question.. what has Warde done to warrant being the 2nd or 3rd highest paid employee in the entire university system?
Good lord, when it comes to the last few posts regarding Warde, Seth and Brian have ALL the right takes. Can you two just be our AD? I’m only half kidding… my sincere request is that you bring on the Board of Regents as guests and ask these hard questions.
Look I agree that player development is not what it was, but the Livers comp is just bad. Livers was hitting corner threes and playing very solid D as a frosh. Also we knew from the start there was going to be a dropoff in player development with Juwan. Aside from my other coaching crush, Jay Wright, Beilien was the absolute best, so it's not really knock on Juwan if he (and pretty much anyone else left coaching in 2023) can't turn TWill into one of the very best players in the country (likely an All-American if no injury).
I thought Juwan might've been able to overcome that with recruiting, but clearly the wheels have come off. Biggest indictment of Juwan for me is the defense, and defensive buy-in. Ironically the worst embodiment of this issue was his son Jett, (def not Jace though, I respect his hustle)
I doubt it. Haven’t watched Twill this season much but the previous two he was one of our weakest links. Bielien might’ve been the best but Livers is just flat out a way better player. It ain’t close.
Never wanted Harbaugh fired in 2020 and it wasn’t Harbaugh leaving to the NFL that made me want to Warde to be fired. It was the fact I think he’s WAY overpaid and when it came to big issues like NIL (or paying players) and sign gate, I felt like he dropped the ball. Given recent news I could be wrong about NIL, but I still think assistants and the likes of Santa Ono are far more valuable than any AD, especially one whose decisions are effectively made for him.
I was all in on Juwan, and so was everyone else. Don’t blame him for that hire at all. NIL failure is a different story. Warde can rectify this situation if he gets Minter and Herbert to stay.
All the fire Warde chatter because Harbaugh is off to the NFL is annoying. That’s a bad reason to fire the guy, but there are plenty of potential good ones. As this post suggests let’s see how he planned and whether there’s a lot of continuity with the old staff.
Warde makes $1.23 Million. More than Santa Ono or Jesse Minter. And the guy spent the last few years acting like NIL doesn’t exist! If you’re the THIRD highest paid UM employee (after Harbaugh and the Michigan medicine CEO), how can you be MIA on one of the only issues you can effect.
Whose job is best suited to rectify issues with NIL? Harbs or Warde? It's not all on Warde but he's likely one of the most important stakeholders in this. Again he is paid $1.23M so do you think it's unreasonable at that price to expect our AD to make it easier for top talent to choose Michigan?
Exactly. Gotta be better. Your job pretty much boils down to 1. Hiring and retaining good football and hoops coaches. 2. Dealing w/ any NCAA & Big10 issues. 3. NIL/fundraising
All the event management stuff, operations, marketing, and any of the other sport programs will either be taken care of by staff regardless of any AD involvement, or it really doesn't matter much in the grand scope of things.
The man makes $1.23 million. I'm gonna withhold blaming Warde for #1 & #2, but good lord, the fact that Santa Ono was far and away a better leader this year AND makes LESS money, tells me we can do better. You want to be paid more than Jesse Minter and Santa Ono, gotta show us what that money is buying.
What you described is not a form of sexual harassment. That requires some harassing of a sexual nature. It may be immoral or against some code of conduct, but not the open and shut case you make it out to be
Gotta say your handle is pretty ironic though… Caesar was piping Brutus’s mom, and dude still got an empire
Consensual phone sex is fireable? You can’t say some puritan ish like that and have playboy Julius Ceasar’s words as your name
Yes, pay the players. But cmon, Sean Payton makes 18 mil this year and LA rams new stadium cost $5.5 BILLION. Rams and Saints do not have to pay for Olympic swimming pools, gymnastics teams, and 30 other teams no one really cares about.
Plus coaches add value to program and to the players, those salaries are gonna change. Yes there’s some fat to trim off the bone for facilities, but I bet the players rather it spent on the Big House than the golf course.
Agreed. I don’t see any harm in most of them becoming club sports. That’s awesome if you want to pursue your dream of lacrosse, but student tuition $ or the likes of Blake corum shouldn’t have to pay your way
I’m aware this would largely be the case. I don’t see it as a problem for students, or the public if they get relegated to varsity/club sport or canceled all together.
Yeah definitely not that simple. 2 sports make big money, 30-40 sports are all in the red, academic institutions already dump millions into ADs. When it comes to balance sheets it is a bit of a zero sum game. Plus, right now it feels like hoops and football players are subsidizing rich kids sports like hockey, lacrosse, golf...etc. What's wrong with requiring them to break even?
Although to be fair, there are plenty of mens sports that lose money too. Even Michigan hockey is in the red. But Title IX def does make this more contentious.
My man. Hai ragione.
I assume you mean Athletic Departments (not Universities) could still support non rev sports. My argument is that Universities shouldn't subsidize things like Lacrosse & Gymnastics, but should focus on students & academics.
If you pay fball and hoops players a sizable chunk (which they deserve), no way that's gonna all come from a few downgrades in facilities and AD positions. Universities are already subsidizing. Also, you need a lot less AD overhead when you eliminate the marketing, scheduling, maintenance, facilities...etc. of 30+ teams. Plus, I feel like you're just thinking of those top tier 5-10 programs... how many Big 12 or ACC teams have record studios?
Correct, I remember reading a few years ago that most of these subsidies are in the millions per year. The accounting can get a bit messy, but it still amounts to academic institutions investing millions into non-revenue sports (that regular students don't even attend).
Good for Harbaugh. Although every time this issue arises, I feel like no one ever addresses who really benefits from not paying football & hoops players. Yes, the NCAA is a racket, but hands down the biggest benefactors from not paying "student athletes" are actually other student athletes... (from non-revenue sports).
Instead the blame is always placed on things like coaches salaries, facilities, nebulous accusations of Athletic Department waste...etc. Yet NFL teams have expensive coaches & facilities (more or less), and the players actually benefit from good coaches and facilities. The Detroit Lions do not have a Men's swim team, a Women's field hockey team, plus another 30 other sports all as line items.
My biggest concern is that by not mentioning that other student athletes are the biggest leaches here, and we then proceed to pay players... I'm afraid *Academic* institutions will increasingly subsidize sports, (at the expense of research, lowering tuition, or you know... academics).
Hahaha this^
You know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Whatever drugs you're on, you should try switching to the stuff that makes you happier
What are you talking about?
You criticize the OP, saying this isn't board worthy.
I then say it is clearly board worthy.
Then you somehow infer that I am all-in for Mr. Mahmoud, the Ayatollah, and the entire destruction of Israel.
Here's the whole story that you seem to be missing: a dude halfway around the world, who used to be very powerful, tweeted about an American football team. Our Wolverines, no less.
In other words, shit's ridiculous yo.
This is absolutely board worthy. The ex-president of one of the most influential countries in the world just tweeted about Michigan football. I for one am grateful to the poster who made known a fact, that I would've otherwise been oblivious too.
Hahaha definitely the third one. Clever and barbarous.
First off, a proportion of Tuition should absolutely be counted as an expense. Secondly, even if you remove tuition, non-revenue programs are still in the red.
Put it another way. Where do you think the Millions from not paying players go exactly?
Intentional or not, the main issue is that academic institutions throw millions upon millions to prop up sports that the student body could care less about. These figures are startling: "Nearly 130 athletic departments rely on subsidies for over half their revenue." - Scroll down to the table
Again, I'm 100% behind paying players. I would just make it so an athlete's pay is more in line with the actual profit/value that their sport provides.
Everyone likes to blame coaches, facilities, or some indistinct AD caricature for taking advantage of players not getting paid. But NFL teams spend plenty of cash on player salaries, stadiums, and coaches. They don't have men's lacrosse, and women's volleyball though
How is this ridiculous? I feel like this is the first time someone is actually being honest about the finances of this whole situation. I'm all for paying players but consider the facts:
With those facts it's a simple equation: by paying players, athletic departments would have to make that revenue up by eliminating other expenses (i.e. non revenue sports), or borrow more $$$ from the academic/student side (i.e. tuition). It's all the other sports that benefit most from not paying football and basketball players.
Omg! I love this game.... What if Moeller killed jimmy hoffa?!
Hot Wife the HOT takes!
If Wagner stays, we are almost certainly going to be better and should win the Big10 outright, (especially with all the talent that is leaving the other Big10 powers) and be a favorite to win it all.
If he leaves, its imposible to know. We are going to rely on Beilien working his magic on nearly every player on our roster in order to impove significant holes in their current game. This is Beilien we are talking about, so there's reason to believe this is very possilbe.
Then there's the question of how our incoming freshman will contribute, since we will count on them for significant backup (or starting) minutes. Personally, I think Iggy and Johns (especially Iggy) are eventually going to be absolute beasts. How long it takes them to get there, remains to be seen.
Whatever his legacy is, it should be set to this music. Can someone do a highlight reel of Wagner squared in A-squared?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGU1P6lBW6Q
Duplicate
Kaminsky won every POY award... the Wooden Award, Naismith Award, Associated Press POY, NABC POY, Oscar Robertson Trophy, Sporting News POY....etc. He also lead his team to a Big10 Title, and a Championship game. But yeah... your high school sports Strawman probably makes more sense.
I think you underestimate how good Kaminsky was. I mean the dude won the Wooden award, had a better shot than Wagner, was a great passer, and has an inch or two on Wagner. Granted his potential as a NBA stud was curbed a bit, given he was athletically limited and a Senior.
It’s not a knock on Wagner to say Mo is not the best player in all of college, which Kaminsky was.
Next year with MAAR gone, who is Poole’s backup at the 2? Nunez… Our least heralded recruit? Sure. we can shuffle around a bit, but as far as returning production for positions 2,3, AND 4, we only have Poole, Matthews, & Livers.
Furthermore, barring injury to Wagner or Teske, Davis will in all likelihood be riding the pine again next year. So its 2 years of potential production for both dudes. It’s certainly not OBVIOUS… well, unless you’re John Beilein!
Wait a minute, Guy Fawkes = Beilein?! I never really got a masquerad-ie / anarchist vibe from you, but I guess that Che Guevara tattoo on your shoulder makes a lot more sense now
Davis has half the minutes of Ibi, and with Wagner, Teske, and eventually Castleton his positional need is almost as crucial Ibi's.
Bottom line is Beilein knows who should go. In fact, Beilein knows everything. We must trust the Beilien.
Davis has half the minutes of Ibi, and with Wagner, Teske, and eventually Castleton his positional need is almost as crucial Ibi's.
Bottom line is Beilein knows who should go. In fact, Beilein knows everything. We must trust the Beilien.
There must be something we can do to at least get someone at the Atheltic Department thinking about this. It's a win - win - win across the board, with a few disgruntled season ticket holders.
More people in the stand (esp. more rabidly drunk students), is a win for the:
- Team and Beilien
-Game Experience for anyone attending
- Recruiting
- Athletic Department's bottom line in the long run. More people in the stands, and more wins overall translates to:
So.... Anyone have Warde's cell?
With 10 People in your party, Jolly Pumpkin will be hard to beat, (especially with their outdoor patio upstairs). Go with the Truffle fries and a Truffle pizza... if Truffles are your thing.