WTKA Roundtable 1/18/2024: Jim is Gonna Jim
Things Discussed:
- Seth comes on early to talk Lions.
- Jim Harbaugh: If the NFL is willing to give him everything he'll go. If they won't he's got leverage to get what he wants from Michigan.
- Minter: Gonna be hard to keep him. Has the chance to follow MacDonald's career path. Worth keeping? Absolutely. Please offer him whatever you can to stay because he is incredible. But what can we offer other than money that NFL can match when he's already shown he's at that level?
- Life after Harbaugh? Michigan was the 2nd team to win a National Championship with a majority Black coaching staff (2022 Georgia) and the only one with a Black coordinator or co-coordinator. These guys are as/more responsible than Harbaugh for creating the culture at Michigan.
- Moore (to HC), Clink, Hart (to RGC), Newsome (to OL), Elston (title bump?) are all guys with a greater connection to Michigan than they do to Harbaugh. If Jay was smart he'd stick around too (Sam thinks he follows his dad).
- Need to think about the next 10 years of college football. Where teams are going to offer your backups $hundreds of thousands to transfer and your recruits more to sign. Someone here needs to leverage the school to make changes, and push to change the mechanism for player compensation from daddy moneybags to a share of TV revenue and contracts. How does Michigan compete in a world where you have to recruit your team each offseason?
- If Jim stays is he here for good? No. He's a unicorn; unless he's not having success at Michigan the NFL is going to be interested, because there aren't a lot of Bill Walshs or Pete Carrolls who can have success at both levels.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
The Usual Links:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
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Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
There's a lot of people out there who have to start thinking about next season; I'm not one of those people.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:36 PM ^
If you don’t want to acknowledge that young black men often feel more comfortable around black role models and it’s a good thing to have more of them around, then I don’t know what to tell you.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:13 PM ^
Thank god our 4 white starting offensive linemen could still connect with Moore... :/
January 18th, 2024 at 3:58 PM ^
Oracle, would you entertain the concept that at some level, for some young people, the ability to communicate (coach) & the willingness to receive the information (be coached), are inextricably linked to a cultural comfort level?
It doesn't really feel like it's debatable, but it seems like it's objectionable for some people.
January 18th, 2024 at 5:17 PM ^
I’m sure that’s true, but I doubt it’s the most important factor for many and the recap placed some significance on having the most black assistants of any CFP champion. When you start counting, I think you’ve gone too far.
January 18th, 2024 at 5:25 PM ^
I will agree with you only to say in this particular case, I'm way more interested in quality over quantity!
January 18th, 2024 at 11:54 AM ^
The Harbaugh to NFL meme is good for Michigan Football. Very few kids are playing football at Michigan for less than a chance to play in the league. Incoming recruits will understand and appreciate Michigan all the more for a coach who lives their dream no matter how "the situation" turns out.
Defensive UFR is done! No word on the Offensive one - Looking at Brian.
This discussion was very different from the board here. I appreciate the insights and Sam's final word.
We are good here no matter what happens.
January 18th, 2024 at 11:57 AM ^
not sure that we can keep Minter if he gets an offer as high major HC, but we can certainly offer him enough to stay against an NFL DC offer, especially if Jim leaves.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:01 PM ^
If Harbaugh does come back to Michigan, it will be because he did not get what he wanted from the NFL. So, he will try again next year. And the year after that.
Which, fine. Chase your dreams, you've earned it.
But if he comes back, he needs to come up with a coherent and public succession plan. Such as anoint Sherrone as the coach-in-waiting and then mentor him to take the head coach position when the time comes.
Recruits and transfers will then know who they may wind up playing for. There is no need for all of the chaos and uncertainty. It is starting to unnecessarily do damage to the program he loves, why would he want to do that?.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:01 PM ^
How much more does he need to do to anoint Sherrone than making him the acting HC against Penn State, Maryland, and ohioSt? I don't understand this coach in waiting prospect. Let's say Jim comes back and next year Smart is off to the NFL and Georgia wants to hire Sherrone. Does he pass that opportunity up because he's the coach in waiting at Michigan? That's crazy. There's an obvious successor unless the athletic department goes rogue and that's enough.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:14 PM ^
I don't know that Moore is an obvious successor. The fact that the team won with Moore as the acting HC - where Harbaugh was able to be involved in all aspects of the team, including practicing, game planning, etc. all week other than for 3 hours on game day - does not, by itself demonstrate that Moore is ready to take over as HC. College football (and the NFL) is replete with examples of teams promoting internal coordinators to fill HC vacancies and those promotions not working out.
This is not to say that Moore will NOT be a good HC in the future. But, being an OC and being a HC are completely different jobs. Most individuals who have had success as HC of a major program had prior experience as HC at smaller programs (or even larger programs). Moore has shown that he can be a competent OC (competent because our offense was very solid, played complementary football, and did not hurt the team, but was certainly not a world beating offense, which I am fine with as it worked with the general strategy of being low risk and allowing the defense to do its thing and win us games), but before he one day is a HC here, I would like to see him get some experience as a HC of a smaller MAC-level program.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:10 PM ^
These guys are as/more responsible than Harbaugh for creating the culture at Michigan.
I could see giving credit where credit is due but this is a dumb statement. Jim Harbaugh built the program and he set the cultural direction for it. I know we can't force Harbaugh to stay but I read a lot of comments from our fans who express a bit of shall we say arrogance in thinking we will be operating at the same level if Harbaugh leaves, we won't.
Michigan has program challenges that Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio State doesn't. The school values academics and so the football players must value this as well. Harbaugh was able to identify talent and put a system in place to develop those men. This method has been far superior than at any other university including those three I mentioned. We would lose a wealth of football experience and knowledge if we lose Harbaugh.
We may not have a choice in losing Harbaugh but let's not act like the jilted lover either. Moore or another coach could be just as good as running things as Harbaugh but we don't know and pretending that the assistant coaches deserve more credit than Harbaugh is naive.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:37 PM ^
This is so refreshing to read.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:52 PM ^
That one really caught my eye too. It's like we're already preemptively coming up with the "didn't need him anyway" narrative.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:15 PM ^
Cosigned.
If it was just about love for the program and culture Hoke would have never lost a game here. Frost would have killed it at Nebraska. Etc with 100 other examples.
JH is a top 5 coach in the land. Full stop. There is no replacing him like for like. Maybe 4 guys on the planet could do his job in college and 1 just retired.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:22 PM ^
This is spot on! Harbaugh installed the culture of the program. The assistants on his staff worked within that culture, and may have played a part in shaping aspects of it, but the DNA of the program is 100% Jim Harbaugh.
As you said, we can't force Harbaugh to stay. But if he leaves, it is silly to pretend that he is just a cog in the machine that made the current NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP team. Harbaugh has an incredible history of success at virtually every single stop. He turned Stanford into a successful program after decades of irrelevancy (to which they have largely returned since he left). He took the 49ers to a Super Bowl and to conference championship games in only a few years. And he took Michigan - a team which has not been competitive with the big boys since 2006 to 3 straight Big Ten Championships (with three straight wins over OSU) and a National Championship. I would argue that the only current coaches with his level of consistent success are Lincoln Riley, Kirby Smart and maybe Brian Kelly (meh). And Riley and Smart don't have half of the obstacles that Jim has in terms of admissions, limitations on NIL, etc.
Acting like the unique culture that Harbaugh has created here can be carried on by a collection of his assistants ignores just how special of a coach Harbaugh really is.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:15 PM ^
It's always nice to see a well-placed reference to the Hapsburg dynasty.
January 19th, 2024 at 10:09 AM ^
I LOL'd big time when Brian said that. It's so true. Almost all of the old NFL teams are owned by descendants of bookies/boxing promoters who bought into the league for like $500 a century ago and then rode the totally unexpected wave of the NFL growing into the most lucrative pro sports league in the world, due to almost nothing any of them did (and certainly not their children or grandchildren or great grandchildren who run the teams now).
On another point made in the roundtable: Interestingly, Nick Saban's Dolphins tenure was not as much of a failure as widely remembered. They went 9-7 in first season and narrowly missed the playoffs. His second season was bad; they went 6-10. However, there is an oft under-discussed fascinating and potentially football world-altering historical hinge point after that first season, which is that they had an opportunity to sign Drew Brees when his contract with the Chargers was up. They balked at his shoulder injury, and he signed with the Saints instead. The Dolphins traded for Daunte Culpepper, whose career totally fell apart after that. That second season, the Dolphins QBs were Culpepper, Joey Harrington, and Cleo Lemon. If the Dolphins had signed Brees, there could've been a 15+ year union of Saban/Brees. Incredible what-if that would've had massive implications for NFL and CFB.
It's possible Saban was always just more suited to college ball, but if he'd been more successful in the NFL, he may not have left.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:33 PM ^
Assuming for a moment that Harbaugh goes elsewhere, I'm of the opinion that Minter would be my first choice for HC. Why?
Because I think Michigan's football program will be substantively injured by losing JH no matter what. (Not a big insight). So the question is, how to mitigate that?
The answer is, retain the only undeniably elite football coach you have in Jesse Minter. That's by making him an offer he will get nowhere else- Big money to be the head coach.
Is he ready for the HC duties in terms of recruiting, organization, retention, etc? No, he isn't. But guys, Sherrone Moore is also not ready to be Jim Harbaugh of 2023. News flash: 2015 Jim Harbaugh wasn't ready to be 2023 Jim Harbaugh.
Minter starts with a top flight football mind. Moore is excellent, but IMO, not that level. With both of them being question marks about whether they can grow into the head coaching job, I'll take the guy that has the biggest advantage first.. It's easier for Minter to hire an OC as good as Moore than it is for Moore to hire a DC as good as Minter.
Unfortunately, this whole thing is not going to happen, according to Sam Webb. Not sure if he's right, but...I believe him. I think Moore is the guy if JH is gone.
Don't get me wrong - I love Sherrone Moore. He's a good coach, and I think in a few years, has a real chance to grow into a very good head coach. I just don't think he's the best choice, and frankly, I can't think of a realistic external candidate that I think is better, for sure, than either of them.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:04 PM ^
Let's put it a different way, we are higher on Moore than other programs are. How many programs have interviewed Moore? I haven't heard of any and this is despite him having game day coaching duties in four of our games including two of our biggest matchups.
Our defense carried us for long stretches of football games where the offensive staff was figuring things out. Even in the National Championship game when our running backs gained 170 yards of rushing in the first quarter, we still could not manage to give Washington a knockout blow. Our offense went into a two quarter shell and didn't emerge until late in the fourth quarter. Thankfully our defense held steady but if Washington had managed to tie the game and swung momentum then we may be writing threads calling for Moore to be fired instead.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:42 PM ^
What is to prevent Michigan from offering its own players a share of its share of the TV money? That athletic dept has more money than it knows what to do with at this point anyway.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:45 PM ^
I couldn't Disagree with Brian more. "Jim is going to eventually leave, so just leave..... so we don't have to deal with this every year because it affects recruiting and will eventually be a problem."
So .... we won a NC, he can leave now...
To me, we can do this every year as long as he wants to stay..... or until the perfect NFL deal presents itself. I'm fine with a couple weeks or a month of constant "will Jim leave" "who's the next HC" threads. To have the best possible coach for our team at the helm.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:58 PM ^
It’s a little hypocritical because most HS recruits are shopping around themselves, but they expect a coach who’s been to the Super Bowl to stay for them. It’s like, Imma play the field, but anyone else who does is a whore?
I can’t see why that can’t be turned around, considering if he leaves you just hit the portal. Like, that's the risk if you want the best player development in the country.
“You wanna be in the NFL yourself, right? He might leave, but that’s because he’s one of the only college coaches the NFL is calling. If that’s a problem, you have your pick of coaches with no chance of getting hired by the NFL.”
January 18th, 2024 at 1:03 PM ^
And I suck. I read Brian's opinion (I didn't quite hear him say that) as your opinion.
Sorry about that.
_______
Stupid reply based on me misreading below.
Lets see if I have this straight: It's a good thing to just have him leave, because that would avoid you having to see threads that annoy you.
Versus having the almost inarguably best football coach we could possibly have STAY, where the cost is, you have to look at threads that annoy you. Or, say, you could ignore them. As an alternative..
That IS a tough choice.
Rob
January 18th, 2024 at 1:54 PM ^
i could have worded my opinion a little clearer..... I would like Jim to say until he retires. If the cost of that is a couple weeks to a month of specuation as to whether he's going to the NFL or staying, each year.... I'm fine with that. I'll tolerate the multiple JH staying or going threads, along with all the hawk takes on his potential replacement.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:17 PM ^
Michigan fans want to keep the system (or process, or culture, or context) that produced Team 144 intact. So, how that does happen if one or more of Harbaugh, Moore, or Minter leave?
Harbaugh's aspirations are clear: he at the least wants to explore NFL opportunities, most likely to see if there's a chance to win a Super Bowl ring in the next (say) 5 years. Even if he stays this year, this will be a continuing issue and the AD will have to have a plan.
Minter (and Moore) aspirations are less clear to me. Presumably both want to be head coaches someday, and coordinators on a national championship team can leverage that if there's an opportunity they like.
Moore has apparently impressed the staff and AD enough that he can expect a path to head coach at Michigan. Even if he eventually wants to be a head coach in the NFL, he doesn't need to make a move to stay on a good track.
Minter will likely field multiple opportunities this offseason. If Harbaugh leaves, he could take Minter with him; there will be small schools who give him HC offers; if he wants to be an NFL DC there will be openings and both Harbaughs might be recommending him for those. The reality is that he did a great job for Michigan, and unless that's the be-all-end-all of his goals, he will leave - probably sooner rather than later. That's the price of getting a good coach on the rise - very few of them want to stop at college coordinator, even if it's Michigan.
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I don't see a way for us not to fall back, possibly quite a ways, if we lose Harbaugh. We might be able to limit the fall if we only lose Minter, but even then, if we don't get a good coordinator we could squander the potentially elite defense of 2024.
Again, that's the price of having coaches in demand. And they're in demand because they *succeeded*: Michigan is the 2024 National Champion!
January 18th, 2024 at 1:54 PM ^
Moore (to HC), Clink, Hart (to RGC), Newsome (to OL), Elston (title bump?) are all guys with a greater connection to Michigan than Harbaugh.
Da faq
Guy was a starting QB here and coach here for 9 years. Only Hart is anywhere near same atmosphere.
EDIT: Ok I see it was addressed earlier in the thread. Poor wordsmithing.
January 18th, 2024 at 4:40 PM ^
...than they do to Harbaugh.
January 18th, 2024 at 4:24 PM ^
$3 million for minter? Lousy schools are paying that much for single players. Pay minter $5m.
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