please do not do this [Marc-Gregor Campredon]

Signgate The Ninth: Waiting Comment Count

Brian November 8th, 2023 at 2:24 PM

The narrative begins to turn. Finally we have some takes in the media that properly contextualize the seriousness of The Worst Scandal In The History Of The Big Ten. I recommend the entirety of this Dan Wetzel piece:

In Michigan’s case, the “advanced scouts” were Stalions’ band of iPhone-toting buddies.

In Purdue’s case, the “advanced scouts” were the professional coaching staffs of two other Big Ten teams that had just played the Wolverines, and thus could battle-test the signs they stole as accurate.

Which would you rather have? Raw cell phone footage that still needs to be broken down, or highly experienced coaches just handing over their work?

Everyone would choose the Purdue option.

Even if Ohio State and Rutgers acquired Michigan signs via NCAA-legal game film or during game action, it doesn’t matter. Purdue didn’t do that work. The Boilermakers received stolen signs from advanced scouting. They cheated as much as Michigan.

Wetzel was properly incredulous about Tony Petitti's reported statements on his podcast with Pat Forde, and since Forde has been one of the media's leading hanging judges I appreciate this exchange:

Petitti's tenure as commissioner is going to be short. Next time hire someone who knows things about sports and have the TV guy be second in command. Also recommended: the discussion at the start of the Cover 3 podcast:

People who think this is a big deal are dwindling to MSU/OSU/PSU fans and guys like Finebaum who are in it for the clicks.

[After THE JUMP: decision day is tomorrow]

Why did you do that? Permit myself to quote, uh, myself:

There is an astounding difference between the apparent reaction of Big Ten head coaches—kill 'em all and let God sort it out—and actual sign stealers. The latter group is perplexed as to why anyone would bother, because there is no need to go to those lengths:

“This is not like the Astros,” he said. “This was all obtained legitimately. We’ve been really good at it (stealing signals), getting stuff off of TV copy. People didn’t go to sites (to obtain intel). We did it legally, like stealing it from the third base coach.”

And it provides approximately no advantage:

The staffer involved in decoding the Wolverines signals said he doesn’t buy that the way Stalions and Michigan allegedly gathered their intel actually gave them much of an advantage over the way other teams usually do it. Or that they actually needed this.

“Michigan didn’t have to do it to win,” he said. “That’s the f—ed up thing. It’s still about blocking and tackling. That’s why they didn’t have to do it. They’re really talented. They are better than Penn State, and they are better than Ohio State. They can legitimately win it all.”

Connor Stalions went to great effort to break NCAA rules and should be given a show cause. Michigan's program benefited from this in almost no way whatsoever and should be left alone to beat heads in.
Looks like we're D-1. Tony Petitti is widely expected to do whatever he's going to do tomorrow. Josh Henschke and Sam Webb both make it sound like the previous draconian punishments—suspending Harbaugh until the NCAA investigation finishes was floated—are unlikely. Webb headlined his latest piece "Punishment talks progressing, but not enough." Petitti can issue a two-game suspension without escalating it to the Big Ten ADs, and that sounds like what he's going to attempt.

All indications are that if Petitti does levy a suspension Michigan is going to court. They've has hired a law firm that I've never heard of but people who have are like "oh dang really?"

FAFO time. Rittenberg and Murphy have an article at ESPN that seems fairly well informed about what Michigan will argue:

Michigan likely will argue that the Big Ten had agreed to monitor the NCAA investigation and await its results, and only intervened as a response to pressure from competitors within the conference. The Big Ten did not initiate its own investigation, which the sportsmanship policy allows, and has essentially been relying on information from various sources during an ongoing external probe. The information about Michigan only surfaced weeks ago, and college athletics have a long history of much more serious infractions that have taken much longer to be resolved. …

The league's own handbook also could be cited in the defense for Michigan/Harbaugh. In the "Enforcement Policies and Procedures" section, there is a heading for "NCAA Initiated Cases." The handbook notes that the Big Ten's Compliance and Reinstatement Committee, not the commissioner, would review any potential NCAA violations by one of its members.

The entry reads: "Where the NCAA initiates a preliminary or official inquiry with a member university the Conference will cooperate with university and NCAA representatives in the processing of that case through the normal NCAA investigation, hearing and appeal processes. While the case will be processed through normal NCAA channels, the Conference Compliance and Reinstatement Committee shall review the case and may impose additional penalties, if warranted, subsequent to the NCAA action."

Attorneys for Michigan and/or Harbaugh could argue that the Big Ten isn't following its own rules in letting a "normal NCAA investigation" play out, and is acting ahead of the NCAA, rather than imposing discipline "subsequent to the NCAA action." The Big Ten will keep pointing to its sportsmanship policy, but Michigan could argue that this case, initiated by the NCAA, falls under a different category.

You'll note this is virtually identical to what user rym posted yesterday:

In investigations initiated by the NCAA, the Big Ten rules require the conference to wait for the NCAA investigation and any appeals to be finished and for the NCAA to levy a penalty first, at which time the Big Ten can choose to pile on (key language italicized):

32.2.2(C) NCAA Initiated Cases. The Compliance and Reinstatement Subcommittee shall review violations by member universities as determined by the NCAA and may impose penalties in addition to those imposed by the NCAA for any violations.

1. Where the NCAA initiates a preliminary or official inquiry with a member university the Conference will cooperate with university and NCAA representatives in the processing of that case through the normal NCAA investigation, hearing and appeal processes.

2. While the case will be processed through normal NCAA channels, the Conference Compliance and Reinstatement Subcommittee shall review the case and may impose additional penalties, if warranted, subsequent to the NCAA action.

That provision is unambiguous and lists no exceptions. There is no rule in the conference handbook that would allow the Commissioner to bypass the NCAA (and the Big Ten's Compliance and Reinstatement Subcommittee) because the Commissioner feels peer-pressured to act quickly.

Never get in a land war in Asia, and never get in a pedantry competition with the University of Michigan.

Etc.: Henschke reports that the weird Corum-Stalions LLC lists Corum as an organizer but Corum did not sign anything, undoubtedly because he has no idea about this totally sick collab. Sign stealing in basketball happens, too. RGIII isn't having it. These are good tweets.

Comments

meeashagin

November 8th, 2023 at 4:36 PM ^

I think he does it before this week's game, if it's a 2 game suspension, in hopes that Michigan will back off knowing they'd have Harbaugh guaranteed by OSU game.

If it's indefinite then you're probably correct. You may be correct regardless.

I think Michigan will fight it no matter what though.

Denard In Space

November 8th, 2023 at 2:37 PM ^

When I read about the vacuum store and the perseverative obsession with Michigan football extending nonsensically to litigation with his homeowners association, I am beginning to think that we will eventually learn that Connor Stalions has some sort of ability difference related to possibly neurodiversity or obsessive-compulsion. That doesn't absolve him of breaking rules and the consequences should match the offense (my personal belief is that the "offense" is beyond negligible but I digress). But Perhaps we need to rethink how we are talking about this person that may have an actual disability, or may just be wired differently in a way we shouldn't mock. 

 

*sorry if this is offending people but I am a professional in the field with decades of experience working with differently-abled people, and it just concerns me that people are talking about this guy's character and judgment and it just may be more complex than that? Not trying to diagnose or excuse, not sure what other qualms there might be. 

Clarence Beeks

November 8th, 2023 at 2:49 PM ^

I love the edit. Thanks! I had actually gone back to edit mine to add “I think you should get the benefit of the doubt about what I believe you were trying to say, but this comment is going to get heavily negged because of what it looks like you’re saying.” but thought better of that and made it a reply here. Thank you for saying what you did; that’s really important and I, too, share the concern about what you’re actually expressing (now that it’s clearer what you meant). This is very real issue and I appreciate you highlighting it!

Denard In Space

November 8th, 2023 at 2:53 PM ^

 Thank you as well -- I don't even use the word "disorder" when discussing Autism Spectrum with my patients, because I do not view it as that in any way. It's very problematic and concerning when the world treats everyone as if their neurobiologies are identical and we erase the beautiful (and sometimes challenging) differences that neurodiverse individuals experience. I am again not diagnosing Connor, but rather saying we should consider that certain behavior we can't fully explain may be related to differences that aren't just "stupid choices" but are more complex. 

Clarence Beeks

November 8th, 2023 at 3:01 PM ^

This response really touched me. Thank you. I completely understand - and agree with - what you said. I apologize that my first response was direct and harsh. It (that people often DO consider it a disability) hits close to home - personally and professionally - and that’s easy to get defensive about. Your responses and that edit are excellent and very appreciated!

Wendyk5

November 8th, 2023 at 4:59 PM ^

This resonates with me and I thought about this yesterday as I read posts about Stalions and the way people talked about him when the LLC thing came out. These are private issues, and he's a private citizen, and his difficulties shouldn't be fodder for social media message boards. Discussing how he orchestrated his scouting scheme is fair game because it's apropos to Michigan Football. But I don't think his difficulties beyond that should be parsed here. Blake Corum can take care of himself and it sounds like he retained an attorney to help him, so speculating about Stalions' problems isn't ultimately helpful to Corum, and it feels unseemly to focus on that. 

goblu330

November 8th, 2023 at 2:47 PM ^

Obsessive compulsive disorder is a mental health disorder though, as is bi-polar, and both can cause very unusual and irrational behavior.   He is not acting rationally.  That much is certain.  I have no idea if there is something like that and neither have ever shielded a person from the consequences of their conduct but it is a distinct possibility.

JBLPSYCHED

November 8th, 2023 at 3:55 PM ^

No, OCD is an Axis I major mental illness, specifically an anxiety disorder. However, there is an Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder as well, which is in fact in cluster C (my field has ridiculous and often outdated jargon). OCD is usually characterized by repetitive thoughts (obsessions) and behaviors (compulsions) that are very difficult to manage without therapy and/or medication.

Personality disorders are more difficult to define but for our purposes let's just say that they reflect enduring patterns of thoughts, emotions and behavior that are more or less evident by young adulthood. Some personality disorders are more amenable to treatment than others, with OCPD being near the middle of that continuum.

FWIW in my humble opinion, Connor Stalions appears to be a massive narcissist who thinks the world, and particularly the powers that be within the Michigan football program, should pay very close attention to him because he 'gets' things (e.g. opponents' play signals) that no one else truly understands.

umgoblue2008

November 8th, 2023 at 7:27 PM ^

I think you are referring to OCPD- which is a personality disorder and resistant to treatment because it is ego-syntonic (traits in accordance with their personality). OCD is related and more treatable condition to medications/therapy since it is ego-dystonic (person believing thoughts/behaviors are not in accordance with sense of self). 

Either way, you won't find a professional opinion since it would be unethical for any psychiatrist to offer a diagnosis of a public figure without doing an evaluation in person. Refer to the Goldwater Rule if you'd like historical context.

Clarence Beeks

November 8th, 2023 at 2:57 PM ^

As a professional in the space, I’m really curious about your take on - for the sake of argument - whether neurodivergence may actually BE a major factor here. Specifically with respect to strict adherence to the black and white of rules and how that may have impact someone’s ability (or inability) to perceive that what they are doing in their own free time, outside of the workplace could implicate their work for their employer.

Denard In Space

November 8th, 2023 at 3:56 PM ^

I understand the interest but my personal preference was just to insert some awareness of different abilities and presentations into the discussion so we're not unwittingly abusing someone who presents differently. I feel going further in this direction may be too speculative for my comfort. However, I will say that if a person's neurodiversity or mental health needs go unseen and unsupported for their whole life into adulthood (happens all the time), it can lead to a lot of distress for that person.

dragonchild

November 8th, 2023 at 3:01 PM ^

I mean, I'm autistic.  So I know what it's like to go way too deep down a rabbit hole.  But I also have a sense of the impact of my actions on others.

At some point he made a conscious decision to go down the path he chose.  Like, this wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing.  He planned this extensively.  Granted he didn't do any direct harm (FFS this wasn't something like embezzlement and if anything cost him money), but all indications are he kept it secret from the others, and the only reason I can think of is because he wanted to come off as smarter than he really was.  If he felt he was doing nothing wrong, or even if he did, why didn't he disclose his methods internally?  Rule#1 is, if you're going to hide something work-related from your boss, you'd better know it's inconsequential.  This isn't limited to a legal thing or ethics thing or moral thing; no boss living under the shadow of a bureaucratic monstrosity like the NCAA wants a subordinate hiding shit that could get them in trouble.

Neurodiversity would add some context to the extent of his actions, but not that key decision.  Whether or not he broke an NCAA rule, he broke a rule of boss-underling trust in his dream job.  Deliberately, and repeatedly.  And we have ample evidence he's of sound enough mind to know damn well what that says about him.

kevin holt

November 8th, 2023 at 3:04 PM ^

He does seem like a sociopath/psychopath but I have no expertise on the matter. I agree with you though that there is something there that people are blowing past. It would have been way better to keep his name out of the spotlight but that cat's out of the bag and he'll never meet an MSU fan again who doesn't say some stupid shit.

evenyoubrutus

November 8th, 2023 at 3:31 PM ^

I think the Occams razor answer to this is he's likely on the autism spectrum and probably undiagnosed. No I'm not a professional, but lots of personal/family experience. The 30,000 foot view is of a guy who seems to be a borderline genius at decoding signals and also seemingly inhuman in his obsession with that one activity, along with Michigan football as a whole, and yet does absolutely moronic things in the process. Another way to look at it: can you imagine someone who isn't autistic writing a 600 page manifesto about taking over Michigan Football?

Bo Schemheckler

November 8th, 2023 at 2:37 PM ^

You skipped the best part of the Rittenberg article:

"This is going to get ugly," a Michigan source told ESPN. "We don't think this is fair that 13 schools gang up on one and the commissioner will just give in. Does [Petitti] have the authority? No question. But we have a lot of levers of power, too."

Koop

November 9th, 2023 at 9:15 AM ^

This. It's not a coincidence that people like Sam Webb and Isaiah Hole are spending significant air time talking about the future conference Michigan might build after leaving the Big Ten.

Ohio State justifies a portion of those television contracts--which, Isaiah Hole was clearly reminded to point out, were signed with FOX and CBS, both of whom are led by devoted Michigan alums and fans. The rest of the league? Um, not so much. The Big Ten getting out ahead of the NCAA on this issue is a $1 billion-per-year self-own.

Little 12? Washington State and Oregon State would like a word, please.

BOLEACH7

November 8th, 2023 at 2:38 PM ^

Hit the B1G with all the dirt don’t give them a chance to leave us no time to go to court … lay it all out there and let them know it’s all going to come out 

triangle_M

November 8th, 2023 at 3:01 PM ^

It's better to maximize the damage to the Big Ten brand by leaking things.  Like, we should get the names of the coaches who colluded next.  Then we should get the actual texts.  See how the league likes having its reputation dragged like Michigan has.  If the commissioner has any sense or good people around him he'll have gotten the message from the OSU/RU/PU warning shot.  

Mr Miggle

November 8th, 2023 at 3:01 PM ^

No, never release everything you have at one time. Put a few damaging bits out there. Say there is plenty more and let everyone worry about what we might have. We surely don't have everything. Let the media speculate about when the next story will drop. Don't let anything get lost due to the volume of dirt we have available. Give everyone a chance to raise the white flag before it gets too messy. That's what we most want, after all.

BOLEACH7

November 8th, 2023 at 3:05 PM ^

Well tell the fuckhead commissioner in private … my worry is they wait till late Friday to suspend JH with the holiday closing the courts ! What then ? Let them know that what you have will destroy the B1G brand … better yet let FOX know that their conference brand may well be destroyed !!! 

Yeoman

November 8th, 2023 at 3:25 PM ^

So they suspend on the holiday. The obvious bad faith earns them an eventual reaming in court, we spend the day leaking embarrassing tidbits, Klatt spends three hours on Saturday talking about how stupid and hypocritical the whole thing is, we beat the crap out of PSU with a different coach for each quarter, the NCAA announces an investigation into possible in-person scouting by numerous B1G assistant coaches, the identity of the PI firm comes out over the weekend and Day's connection is the Monday headline at every site but ESPN.

That's a hell of a worst-case scenario.

Yinka Double Dare

November 8th, 2023 at 4:07 PM ^

You can file stuff electronically whenever you want these days in most jurisdictions (just that for most things, there's no reason to file it on a weekend or something when you can just wait), and for an emergency TRO, the fact that the courthouse is closed wouldn't necessarily stop it from being picked up by a judge and a TRO granted to maintain the status quo until the following week when they can have a hearing.

AWAS

November 8th, 2023 at 3:44 PM ^

We have already rehearsed game action without JH.  I don't see that as the worst possible play by Pettiti.  What if he suspends Minter instead, as the recipient of the advantage? Who is HIS backup, especially on short notice?