Nature vs. Nurture: How Much Did Our Draft Class Benefit From Harbaugh's Development?
Michigan saw 11 players get drafted, a terrific testament to the players and to the program. An exciting day.
Of interest: All of these guys were recruited by Brady Hoke. They've had two years of Jim Harbaugh coaching, but they were Hoke recruits and had Hoke coaching early in their careers.
So I would like to (baselessly) speculate: How much of the success of this class can be attributed to Hoke for bringing the guys in, and how much can be attributed to Harbaugh's staff? Keep in mind that three guys from the D-Line got picked, and they had Greg Mattison in one way or another for their entire tenure.
How many of these guys are drafted if they finish their careers in the Hoke regime?
Hoke recruited but Harbaugh's crew developed. If Hoke got 5 drafted I feel that would be his ceiling
April 30th, 2017 at 12:47 AM ^
Every time I see this, I STILL get mad. God what a nightmare it was with him as coach...
Didn't want to clog the OP with my individual thoughts, but as justifiably eye-rolling readers may guess, I have some:
I would suggest that Jehu Chesson and Amara Darboh both owe Harbaugh a lot for the way JH developed the offense and challenged them to be complete receivers. I've been very critical of them, but NFL teams obviously saw something they liked and the contrast between Michigan's relatively low-ranked recruits and OSU's top 100 types in the draft is pretty impressive. Butt was an impressive talent but Harbaugh really knew how to use him, too.
I think guys like Clark, Hill, and Gedeon emerged into terrific players after Hoke left and would not be draft material without the Durkin/Brown tag team. Did it take the Harbaugh staff to coach Lewis up with the technique to make him an All-American?
I'm less certain that the D-Line guys and Peppers were affected, though a guy like Charlton may have benefited from better drills and practices. Peppers, of course, was destined to be great no matter what.
The "Harbaugh Difference" verdict in my totally unqualified opinion, then, is: Peppers no. Glasgow, Wormley, Charlton, not sure. Lewis, Butt, probably. Gedeon, Hill, Clark, Darboh, Chesson, absolutely yes.
Fair.
If you think five paragraphs is "long" then you must have really struggled getting through Michigan State.
April 30th, 2017 at 10:13 AM ^
I've long been puzzled by posts that say "That was too long I couldn't read it!" I figure they were either engineering or art students or they didn't go to Michigan.
Man I remember taking History of the Roman Empire history course. Don't recall if it was a 300- or 400-level class but man, the massive textbook they had us read was daunting. Made everything else look like fluff.
April 30th, 2017 at 12:06 PM ^
It's not that people can't read the long post, it's just that they don't care to read through a long opinion of an internet stranger.
Plus, what is this about people who didn't get into Michigan not being able to read a longer post? That is some pathetic arrogance.
April 30th, 2017 at 12:41 PM ^
Definitely an arrogant post. However, to be devil's advocate, try reading a board for another school e.g., RCMB for Michigan State being an example. The difference is pretty spectacular.
I only roll my eyes when the sanctimony shows. These type of posts don't bother me at all. I rather like them.
Of the guys who got drafted, the ones who wouldn't have been picked under Hoke are Amara Darboh, Jehu Chesson, and Ben Gedeon, IMO. The OL and QB development wouldn't have been good enough to get the wide receivers drafted, and Gedeon really benefitted from the hiring of Don Brown. I also don't think Delano Hill would have been drafted, but he's right on the verge. Clark would still have been playing safety, and I don't know if he would have excelled there as much as he did at corner.
Peppers, Butt, Lewis, and the defensive linemen would all still get drafted, IMO, because of pure talent for the first three and Mattison for the DL guys.
Ya... many of our guys shined due to the entire team ratcheting up. Another mediocre year? Some of these stars may not have been stars.
I agree, 5 tops. There is no way the recievers get drafted with out Harbaugh. Butt still might get drafted, but even outside of the coaching, think of the spotlight Harbaughbrings with him. Do you think Ruddock is on an NFL roster without Harbaugh- now way. Even if HArbaugh is not directly repsonsible for the postion coached, he is responsible for the uber-competitive mentality that squeezes the absolute most out of each of his players. Wait until 2-3 years from now when we not only have high rated recruits, but they get the full 3-4 year development potential of Harbaugh.
It's Ruddddock.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:36 PM ^
I would add Cole. He'd have a much tougher decision to return for his senior year.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:00 PM ^
Credit Hoke for bringing them in, but Harbaugh got them drafted.
means a bit more than usual.
I think this draft is a testament to how you need a staff that can complete the process from getting them here in Ann Arbor to getting them there to the next level. With Hoke, I think you had a guy who said enough that he could do the former, but between himself and that staff, there wasn't a lot of hope of the latter. With Harbaugh, you have the complete chain, and it shows when you have the right players - even recruited by the previous staff - and give them a staff who can finish the job.
Hoke was a wet blanket for this group of players and team. Their ceiling would have been much lower with him.
I wonder how Funchess would have done in a Harbaugh coaching staff. I know he was hurt along the way, but he seemed to lack fire at times.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:01 PM ^
Obviously my opinion doesn't mean jack, but I think it's pretty obvious that Funchess would have either maximized his God-given talent or would've been replaced by a freshman depending on how much effort he gave. Guys like Derrick Green and Ty Isaac are proof of this.
On the topic of what-ifs, however, Devin Gardner is the guy that I think most of us cringe about when talking about past coaches.
April 30th, 2017 at 12:52 AM ^
for Devin Gardner or even Denard Robinson with a couple years under Harbaugh. I love DG to death. He was a fighter and gave his heart and soul to his team. He just couldn't overcome the bad coaching
Gardner couldn't overcome the bad O-line. There were too many times that he was running for his life.
The NFL drafts plenty based on potential, especially in the later rounds. I'm sure some would have been drafted lower, Peppers potentially higher if he played safety for 2 years. I think this draft is more indicative of where the weaknesses in Hoke's recruiting were. They had 3 senior OL, including 2 high 4 star recruits, and none got touched in the draft, plus the 2 year starting RB didn't get drafted.
Hoke could identify defensive talent or coaches who could identify defensive talent, but offensively he was very deficient.
I agree that he lacked an eye for offensive talent. Even with a solid offensive coaching staff, arguably the best offensive player over the past two years has been an Iowa transfer in Jake Rudock.
Hoke and Mattison are obviously terrific DL coaches, but part of me wonders if their ceiling was raised by Harbaugh's more intense practice style. It is suggested that the team was pretty lax in the late Hoke years, and of course we've been told things picked up quite a bit when Harbaugh took over. Better conditioning, more reps, more competition. It wouldn't surprise me if that kind of energy and drive helped guys like Wormley and Charlton excel.
A rising Harbaugh lifts all boats, etc.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:04 PM ^
it would take some really grossly negligent coaching for them not to get drafted.
Would you say a Tim Brewster-level of negligence?
April 29th, 2017 at 11:42 PM ^
I thought Darboh/Chesson both took huge jumps during Harbaugh's first year. I remember thinking WR would be a weakness on that team because saw no signs of stardom from those guys. Really impressed with their improvement and that's a credit to the players first and foremost. A better offensive scheme will help everyone.
Locks to get drafted
1. Butt - Actually gets drafted higher under Hoke since he doesn't tear his ACL in the bowl game as Michigan misses its 3rd consecutive bowl game in this horrific scenario
2. Peppers - Obvious
3. Wormley - Highest floor of any of the defensive guys
4. Lewis - Too talented to not get picked
Almost sure things
5. Charlton - Pretty much same category as Lewis, but somewhat more likely for his development to be bungled
6. Glasgow - Similar to Wormley in terms of high floor and great motor
Maybe
7. Hill - I think he benefitted from Brown's defense and being able to show off his man coverage abilities
Harbaugh guys
8. Darboh
9. Clark
10. Chesson
11. Gedeon (Joe Bolden petitions for a 6th year and is granted eligibilty because NCAA and Gedeon never gets a single start)
I give almost all the credit to Harbaugh (and Durkin, Brown and Mattison). If I had to put a number on it somethin like 90 to 95 percent of the credit. Some credit (but honestly very little) should be given to Hoke for bringing in two highly rated classes, but that's really par for the course at Michigan considering Harbaugh just signed indentical highly rated classes himself. Carr signed similar classes as well.
For me, it's all about player development. If Hoke was better at said development he would have won more games and he would probably still be here. The numbers don't lie:
Under four years of Hoke rule, Michigan had 11 players drafted, with only 3 of those coming from the defense, which is supposedly Hoke's specialty.
Under two years of Harbaugh rule, Michigan has had 14 players drafted, with 8 of those coming from the defense. Next year might be a lean year for Michigan draftwise but I expect Harbaugh's four year total to be more than double Hoke's four year total come 2019.
Granted, Hoke inherited a roster that was more geared to offense, but you could say the inverse about the roster Harbaugh inherited. He still manged to take an offense that was comically bad in 2013 and 2014 and turn it around almost instantly, in the process puting 6 guys into the league from that side of the ball in just two years.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:08 PM ^
i dont know about everyone else but i didnt see much, if any player development while hoke was here. wasnt that his main failure as a coach?
April 29th, 2017 at 10:11 PM ^
He didn't win
April 30th, 2017 at 12:04 PM ^
His recruiting was also lacking, in certain areas. He did fine recruiting defensive linemen, but had an abysmal hit rate on offensive linemen, and didn't even seem to bother recruiting skill positions on offense. In Hoke's four years, the only highly-rated QB we recruited was Shane Morris, and the only contributors he recruited at WR were Darboh and Chesson, who were both in 3-star territory. That's just not enough.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:17 PM ^
I feel like it's also important to mention which rounds those guys would have been drafted in. I don't know how much that matters to us (in recruiting, perception-wise, etc.), but it does matter to the NFL teams. Obviously, they value 1st and 2nd round picks more than later rounds.
So, I think without Harbaugh and Brown's defense, Taco definitely gets drafted, but probably not in the 1st round. Peppers actually might have been drafted even higher because he would have played just one position under less creative head coach and DC.
I feel the same way about Willie Henry. If he had stayed and maintained/improved his production, he would have been a 1st or 2nd round guy.
Those guys got a lot more national exposure due to Michigan being a top-10 team, playing in the biggest Game of the decade, and high-profile Orange Bowl. Without that exposure, some of them probably go lower, or maybe even go as UDFA. And that exposure is due to Harbaugh and his coaching.
Except for Butt. Poor Butt. Feel so bad for him.
April 29th, 2017 at 10:18 PM ^