WTKA Roundtable 1/18/2024: Jim is Gonna Jim
Things Discussed:
- Seth comes on early to talk Lions.
- Jim Harbaugh: If the NFL is willing to give him everything he'll go. If they won't he's got leverage to get what he wants from Michigan.
- Minter: Gonna be hard to keep him. Has the chance to follow MacDonald's career path. Worth keeping? Absolutely. Please offer him whatever you can to stay because he is incredible. But what can we offer other than money that NFL can match when he's already shown he's at that level?
- Life after Harbaugh? Michigan was the 2nd team to win a National Championship with a majority Black coaching staff (2022 Georgia) and the only one with a Black coordinator or co-coordinator. These guys are as/more responsible than Harbaugh for creating the culture at Michigan.
- Moore (to HC), Clink, Hart (to RGC), Newsome (to OL), Elston (title bump?) are all guys with a greater connection to Michigan than they do to Harbaugh. If Jay was smart he'd stick around too (Sam thinks he follows his dad).
- Need to think about the next 10 years of college football. Where teams are going to offer your backups $hundreds of thousands to transfer and your recruits more to sign. Someone here needs to leverage the school to make changes, and push to change the mechanism for player compensation from daddy moneybags to a share of TV revenue and contracts. How does Michigan compete in a world where you have to recruit your team each offseason?
- If Jim stays is he here for good? No. He's a unicorn; unless he's not having success at Michigan the NFL is going to be interested, because there aren't a lot of Bill Walshs or Pete Carrolls who can have success at both levels.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
The Usual Links:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
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Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
There's a lot of people out there who have to start thinking about next season; I'm not one of those people.
January 18th, 2024 at 10:42 AM ^
Having first time coordinators in addition to first time head coach is a recipe for disaster. Moore needs experience at least one of the coordinator positions, if not both.
January 18th, 2024 at 11:27 AM ^
I'm assuming that Kirk Campbell would be the guy most likely to take over as OC, since he was a coordinator with Old Dominion before he came over to Michigan.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:06 PM ^
They got to do better than that.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:22 PM ^
Campbell was acting OC when Moore was acting HC - if those were to be made permanent, I’d imagine Campbell would have more say in playcalling/gameplanning
January 18th, 2024 at 12:29 PM ^
Michigan needs to do better than a guy fired by Old Dominion.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:06 PM ^
And folks said Minter was a bad hire because look at Vanderbilt.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:57 PM ^
I don't know who was pulling the strings but whomever was calling JJ not to run until Q3 v Washington is not someone I want running the offense. It's the last effin game of the season and you had UW on the ropes for 2 fricking quarter and could have ended them an hour earlier than when it happened. JJ ran out of nearly his own end zone due to pash rush and only then did they start utilizing it.
I get not using it to keep him from getting not injured earlier in the year but in the NC game? Nah.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:32 PM ^
This team won a few big games in spite of play calling, not because of it. Move Moore to the CEO position, keep him in charge of the OL, and bring in an offensive coordinator with a proven track record.
January 18th, 2024 at 10:44 AM ^
He won a championship and returned Michigan to the mountaintop. We can also be annoyed by how he handles offseason interviews and whatnot.
He wants to get an idea of what exists out there in the NFL. All fine and good. But it does hurt Michigan and it's ok to acknowledge that.
January 18th, 2024 at 10:49 AM ^
I agree with you for the most part.
The most annoying part is the fanbase whining about it during the offseason as if he owes them something. Certainly more annoying this year as if he didn't deliver a NC while doing this same thing the last couple offseasons.
January 18th, 2024 at 11:05 AM ^
Right? It hasn't been two weeks and we got jackasses here already complaining.
The guy won us a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, and probably one of the cleanest in sports history -- no program was more thoroughly and cynically scrutinized the whole season, only to come up with fucking burger receipts and iPhones. Would I prefer he make up his mind? Sure. But to Sam's point, this is a mild annoyance in comparison to what he delivered. It's the cost of having Jim Harbaugh. Like Brian says, the reason the NFL talk won't stop is because the NFL is actually interested whereas most college coaches can't make that claim.
What do these assholes want, a coach who's willing to stay forever that the NFL would never want? That was Brady Hoke.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:01 PM ^
As one of those assholes apparently, it would have been kinda nice to go one offseason without an attempt to leave what I assume is a desirable job. And to turn around the time argument ('it hasn't been two weeks'), it's a little harder to see the national title as some special sports pinnacle when the guy who won it was onto the next thing before all the confetti was cleaned up in Houston. Harbaugh, the leader, is saying the party is over, so why can't an asshole fan do the same thing?
January 18th, 2024 at 2:29 PM ^
Because the horse is already beaten to death? We know he's interested in the NFL. We know he's had success in the NFL. We know as long as he's successful, the NFL will come a-callin'. We know as long as they're calling, he'll pick up the phone.
And sure, it's annoying. But as long as we know, what's there to say except bitching to bitch?
January 18th, 2024 at 3:03 PM ^
"We know as long as they're calling, he'll pick up the phone."
We know that is a CHOICE he is making, with all it's benefits and costs.
January 18th, 2024 at 4:55 PM ^
Fire Harbaugh!
January 18th, 2024 at 7:42 PM ^
Fans always want more.
Win a championship? We want a second! We want a dynasty! We want to CRUSH Ohio...(ok we pretty much did that. Next?)
But just because we want more doesn't mean that the actual people involved have to participate in our drama.
The realts football: Players go pro. Coaches move around. We watch, and---when Michigan has the pieces in place---we
January 18th, 2024 at 12:13 PM ^
You're arguing with... nobody really. People aren't saying he has to forgo any and all other job interviews forever. He said he would last year and didn't stick to that anyways.
The point is, these potential NFL moves are fine in the grand scheme of things given what he's delivered, however it's not crazy to get a little uneasy with them and roll your eyes the... 3rd time around.
He/Sam has talked about feeling "loved." I'm not going to go hold a boombox above my head in his driveway to beg him to stay. Fans have shown him how much he is appreciated and "loved" around here.
It seems like it's a Warde issue more than anything else. Literally the rest of the University (players, fans, admin) are behind him so these leaks and reports about the contract language that would keep Warde from firing him, legally are fine, but it's becoming a "what else could you possibly want from us" situation. If you hate Warde, fine, then handle that shit with Warde. But at this point you can't just say it's 100% Warde because it's kinda Harbaugh too.
And he has said before how much he loves Ann Arbor and the last NFL dance was the final ride. Yet he's back to doing it again so it seems a bit disingenuous.
If every single season he is going to take NFL calls you have to build that into the cost-benefit. Michigan isn't going to fire him or let him walk for those calls, but you can't be surprised when people start to think, "yeah this is starting to be stupid."
Teams recruiting where Michigan are winning a NC has literally happened once. We've seen Alabama implode and their players hit the portal but Michigan can't really go after them because of what Harbaugh is doing. Sustaining playoff runs in the new CFB with recruiting issues (NIL and others included) and not being able to grab transfers when other programs are in flux (because Michigan is also in flux) does hurt long term prospects. It just does. Do I hate Harbaugh for it? No. Do I find this song and dance kinda silly, yes.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:59 PM ^
I like what you say here, but my guess is that it is more of an NFL thing. On a personal level, I can't really blame him if the NFL is his dream. Just sucks for us.
That aside, if really it is a Warde thing, then Warde needs to resign today. Warde may be extremely good at his job, I do not know, but it is much, much harder to win a CFB championship than to find a good bureaucrat.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:17 PM ^
If it is an NFL thing, I'm perfectly fine with that. You can't compete with something that someone desperately wants to do from a deep level. If Michigan could name him emperor and it wouldn't change his mind, that's fine. But he doesn't need to go about it in this manner. He has agency here and he is choosing to make statements like (paraphrasing):
"I'll coach here as long as they'll have me."
"This was the last time." (regarding interviewing for NFL jobs)
before going out and doing the exact opposite of what those statements imply.
Obviously not everything lines up with jobs coming available exactly when he wants them or teams even offering him the job, but he has had plenty of opportunities at this point to emphatically declare that he will go to the NFL or not. He can be picky about where he goes, but at this point it's clear he wants a very specific thing that isn't necessarily available everywhere he's interviewed.
As for Warde, firing your AD because the football coach doesn't like him sets precedent. The football coach becomes the de facto head of the athletic department and we make fun of Izzo/MSU for that all the time. Is Warde worth the position anymore? Probably not. But again Harbaugh has a role in this and he is choosing to make it a problem. So fire Warde, I'm ok with that given his larger body of work, but Harbaugh doesn't need to publicly fire someone above him in the manner that he is.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:05 PM ^
Well let's say he's doing it because Warde also lost the baseball coach & who knows who's next?
Then we can feel better about it.
Look at the Harbaugh/Baalke impasse in SF. Jed York probably wished he'd listened to Harbaugh when, a few years later, he finally fired Baalke for doing a crap job!
January 18th, 2024 at 2:17 PM ^
Thanks for saying this. I have the same feelings. I like Harbaugh and I have a ton of gratitude for what he's done for the program. But, it does rub me the wrong way for him to have made those promises about not looking at NFL opportunities only to break them nearly immediately. It seems hypocritical for someone like Harbaugh who has said the following: "“Be honest. You will have choices to make and where a dishonest edge can be gained. And whatever gain is made will be undermined sometime down the road. As our dad told us, flat out, never lie, never cheat, never steal, it won’t be worth it. It’s the basis of trust, which is the basis of all things. … The value of becoming a known person of character and integrity is priceless… Another piece from Judge Judy on honesty, if you tell the truth you don’t need a good memory.”
January 18th, 2024 at 3:06 PM ^
If it's really an NFL thing... quit lying and saying things like "I want to be here as long as they want me" and "this won't happen every year".
Just be freaking honest that Michigan is your side piece that you're going to leave as soon as something better comes along and quit pretending you love Michigan for the long term.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:14 PM ^
Sorry but this "Jim just wants to be somewhere he is loved" is bs. It's an out for him. If he came out and said I want to be in the NFL and left lots of people would be pissed. If he takes a NFL job and says he didn't get the love he wanted thin he isn't the bad guy.
It's ridiculous that the fans that grow tired of this get shit on.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:07 PM ^
Brady Hoke is tanned, rested and ready. So for those who prefer the scenario you outlined, there's that...
January 18th, 2024 at 1:28 PM ^
False choice.
It's not every single offseason takes 4 NFL interviews version of Harbaugh or headset-less G5 coach who couldn't tie his shoes unless Denard showed him (who also didn't tie his shoes).
January 18th, 2024 at 2:02 PM ^
Kirby Smart runs a NFL system and has 2 NCs. Strange no one is sniffing his way at all.
January 18th, 2024 at 4:18 PM ^
Did he lead his to team to three Conference championship games , did he lead his team to the Superbowl game ? Has he proven he can succeed in the NFL ? Didn’t think so !!’
January 18th, 2024 at 2:07 PM ^
Well tell Hoke to start walking - in the other direction!
Should be a fairly short walk this time, being he's in San Diego!
January 18th, 2024 at 1:55 PM ^
Part of the NFL's public interest is that he's interested in the NFL. We don't get headlines about the coaches whose agents decline feelers from NFL teams.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:08 PM ^
To answer the Kirby Smart question posed above...
January 18th, 2024 at 3:02 PM ^
"What do these assholes want, a coach who's willing to stay forever that the NFL would never want?"
No - a coach who's willing to stay forever that the NFL desperately wants, because he really wants to be with us.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:16 PM ^
While I appreciate all that Coach Harbaugh has done for the Michigan football program, I would just prefer the stability, and it's associated benefits and advantages, of having a good HC who WANTS to be the program head long term. I'm not whining; just a preference.
I didn't listen to the podcast, but read the verbage in the post. I'm not sure that any of the assistants have a stronger connection to Michigan than does Jim Harbaugh. But some have a strong connection and that's good along with some others who can bring some strengths/positive attributes from others programs.
Ultimately, the wishes of the fanbase don't matter. The University needs to determine if they want the annual coaching uncertainty with Harbaugh testing NFL waters or not. Plusses and minuses as with most things.
January 18th, 2024 at 1:51 PM ^
That line is ambiguous. Those assistants have a stronger connection to Michigan than they have to Harbaugh.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:04 PM ^
Got it.
It's poorly written. The way I read it was those guys are closer to Michigan than Harbaugh is.
Apparently it means they are closer to Michigan the entity than to the head coach.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:11 PM ^
Ambiguous is charitable. Thanks!
January 18th, 2024 at 1:55 PM ^
Yeah, it’s not like he promised to stop doing this or anything…
January 18th, 2024 at 2:04 PM ^
I don't find it that annoying considering that Harbaugh said that January 2022 was the last time he'd pursue the NFL, and that he'd be the Michigan head coach for as long as the University would have him. As alumni, he does owe us something: to act with integrity in his representations to the rest of us. He left himself outs, he's allowed to change his mind, yada yada yada, but there's a legitimate grievance that he's been less than forthright about his plans.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:06 PM ^
He doesn't owe the fanbase any more than what we owe him: Nothing.
Yet, he owes his employer honesty, as does anyone else. He apparently assured his employer that an annual dalliance with the NFL would not be in the cards, yet here they sit.
January 18th, 2024 at 2:11 PM ^
Buddy, the University of Michigan is a public institution - the fans are his employers!
January 18th, 2024 at 5:23 PM ^
I doubt any of our names are on his signed contract or on his paycheck.
Furthermore, it is my understanding that the U of M Athletic Department is a financially separate entity not paid for/subsidized by Michigan taxpayers (or Federal tax money for non-resident fans).
January 18th, 2024 at 5:23 PM ^
Harbaugh owes the University his best effort for as long as he’s coach and that’s it. He has no obligation to stay or to forego looking for another job. Just three years ago, much of the fan base wanted him fired and the university gave him a choice between a humiliating pay cut or leaving the job being seen as having failed. No one was constrained by loyalty. If he stayed and the team had a couple of disappointing seasons in a row, the firing talk would begin again.
As for the “but he promised” argument, since he said that, the university meekly went along with six games worth of suspensions, the second of which forced him to miss the OSU game. They showed him they didn’t have his back. I could see how that experience could change his thinking and I don’t blame him.
January 18th, 2024 at 11:01 AM ^
Correct, but keep things in perspective.
In saying, "it does hurt Michigan," would M have won more of a National Championship had JH not had those offseason interviews?
January 18th, 2024 at 11:43 AM ^
We were fortunate to retain many staff & players during Jim's daliances with the NFL in Jan 2022 & 2023. We never had a good opportunity to gauge the damage it caused versus what the benefit of him being 100% focused on recruiting (staff & players) during those periods... especially with how the portal works now.
What is the response is he leaves and much of it comes undone... maybe even with a sub 0.500 season next year?
January 18th, 2024 at 12:09 PM ^
"What is the response is he leaves and much of it comes undone... maybe even with a sub 0.500 season next year?"
My response is Team 144 was worth the sacrifice. How many teams win it all? If M does it once a decade, I'm in hog heaven. I'll take once every two decades. Why perpetuate 10-2 (or whatever) if you can actually win all the marbles?
Example: How does OSU feel about their last three years?
January 18th, 2024 at 12:35 PM ^
To many fans consistently winning the Big Ten means more. Winning a "National Championship" (with a still imperfect/debatable system - see FSU) is cool, no doubt, but... maybe not worth potentially another Dark Period (RR to Hoke) by a total collapse/rebuild.
Not saying that *would* happen, but it *could* if Jim leaves.
January 18th, 2024 at 12:55 PM ^
"To many fans consistently winning the Big Ten means more."
I get your point, and I suspect you are correct. To each his own, I guess.
To me, the only year that compares to this one is 97, and that one had the Fulmer debacle. Every other B1G championship feels hollow in comparison to this year. But that's just me.
Hypothetical extreme case: Would you go 1-9 against both MSU and Ohio each decade if that one win was a perfect season and included a National Championship? If that's your scenario, I guess I would probably rather regularly beat Ohio. But I'd be torn...
January 18th, 2024 at 2:25 PM ^
I, for one, was happier after beating Ohio State than I was beating Alabama or Washington. I would have been fine playing Washington in the Rose Bowl and calling it a season. But I'm old school.
Other students can have part time jobs so I have no problem with the spirit of NIL. Yet, paying recruits and transfers gobs of money just doesn't sit right with me.
The NFL should have a minor league system to include those players who don't want or should not go to college in addition to college graduates who don't make an NFL team but still want to play and keep trying. And the NFL should pay for it.
I wonder if the powers that be are killing the goose that laid the golden egg...
January 18th, 2024 at 5:17 PM ^
Well this year, for the 1st time in a long time, and for the last time ever, just having Michigan play Washington in the Rose & calling it a day would actually have paired the only 2 unbeatens, ranked #1 & #2. So in this case, yeah...
But my God growler, if you weren't ecstatic about the chance to beat bama & send Saban off to retirement, "old school" is not the charming sobriquet I'm calling you...
January 18th, 2024 at 12:02 PM ^
In saying, "it does hurt Michigan," would M have won more of a National Championship had JH not had those offseason interviews?
So, it's too early to tell because the NFL conversations have really kicked up these last 3 years. The key players from this team were largely already on campus when it really started, the transfers coming in were riding the upswing, and assistant coaches were new enough that they weren't likely to get plucked by other programs/the NFL. So my concern is more forward-looking.
Hart interviewed for a HC job and is well within his right at this point to look for an OC job. After 2021, that wasn't a fear.
MacDonald went back to the NFL after 1 year but that was always a rental. Minter is likewise but he had a longer college track record and wasn't on a meteoric rise. Going from Vanderbilt to Michigan to whatever was going to take a few years. He's going to have plenty of opportunities now.
As Brian mentioned, they just went back to back to back playoff appearances and their recruiting hasn't seen much of an uptick. There's NIL and other things playing into that, but you can't argue that this stuff isn't a factor as well.
So, the longer this goes on the more it hurts the 2024 / 2025 teams that will already be dealing with a ton of departures.
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