Discussion about the defensive game plan against Ohio State
I am curious how the masses here at Mgoblog really feel about Don Brown. It is obvious now that his game plan for OSU wasn't very effective and hasn't been 2 years running. I saw people calling for his firing mid game and others blindly defending him. Since we aren't getting a UFR and the game recap was just an acknowledgement that the game happened instead of analysis, I was hoping we could discuss it ourselves. I am also hopeful we can be adults about it and be rational instead of the usual message board pissing contests.
From my perspective, Don Brown was stuck between a rock and hard place. Ohio State was going to just grind it down our throat all game if we didn't commit significant resources to stopping the run. We've lamented how our DT's are extremely light and adequate at best this year, and Ohio State is built for power running. It also seemed we played a lot of zone because of this, and most likely as a response to last year as well. In my layman's perspective, the players didn't do very well executing the zone. Our senior safety kept letting people behind him, bad communication let WR's run free up the sidleine, etc. Maybe everyone was drilled all week to watch out for the run and the scramble that they got distracted when the lights came on. Maybe they just played very bad that day. Maybe they were asked to do too much. I don't know, I'm just a fan who watches on my couch.
So what say you fine people about all this? Does Don Brown have an OSU problem? I tend not to think so, as his first two years the defense did very well. He might have a Ryan Day problem, but I'm not entirely sold on that either. Last year he admitted that he thought we had the athletes to match up and run with them. He was wrong in a few critical spots. Maybe that doesn't go as it did if he schemes more instead of playing it straight. I think this year he had to compensate for deficiencies in the personnel and OSU exploited it. Maybe I'm trying to be too optimistic. I would appreciate your thoughts.
December 5th, 2019 at 10:57 AM ^
I don't think there was a gameplan that could account for our undersized DTs. That being said, Don Brown has been here 4 years, DT depth is on him and the rest of the coaches.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:15 AM ^
Seems like Brown did as much as he could to paper over not having DTs that could hold up against the OSU line. They pinched everything inside which worked for a while until they managed to break some runs outside. Safeties also needed to help up which left open some deep stuff.
Mazi Smith and Hinton need to become men by next years game.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:22 AM ^
Assuming they develop - Smith, Hinton, Hutchinson, Paye is a pretty massive line, they should be able to hold up just fine. Next year will be whether or not we get shredded through the air because of CB depth.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:55 AM ^
CB depth and more DTs for depth are my only two roster complaints.
I do find it fascinating that Don Brown seems much more focused on elite safeties. A class of Dax Hill and Q Johnson followed up by Paige, Morant and Moten seems to have us set at safety for years to come. Granted, part of this was covering for not having anyone from the 2018 class.
Safeties over CBs also seems to match plays made against us. Even though our safeties are pretty good, pass plays tend to beat safeties much more than CBs (who have also been very good). We'll see if this can hold up next year when CB depth isn't as good.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:17 AM ^
I agree that it is the responsibilities of the coaches to keep positional depth through recruiting. I am not privy to the what goes into the recruiting decisions, and why they seem to be prioritizing SDE type players they can bulk up instead of true DT's. Is that something Don Brown prefers for his line or is that just what they can recruit at the moment? They seem to go after legit DT's some years and then not others. They got Solomon, they got Smith and Hinton, they attempted to go after multiple a the year between those 2 classes and struck out on all of them and went the SDE route. This year they seemed to ignore it. Is that because they changed philosophy or because they don't think they can get any of the true DT prospects this year?
December 5th, 2019 at 11:27 AM ^
I think it's clear they want athletes at that position, not just fillers that can take blocks. Mone infamously went from being called "one of the best players on the team" to not playing except in short yardage. Gotta think having someone like him this year would've been better than putting 4 DEs on the field or 280lb DTs against OSU and Wisconsin.
Awesome if you can get a Mo Hurst, but they are rare...
December 5th, 2019 at 11:33 AM ^
Yeah, and Mone was part of the reason we didn't get the ball run down our throat last year. OSU passed all game. I get that they want to have athletes and create organic pass rush. I am not sure if they can make up for the loss of strength and size that comes with that. If that is the strategy and not just a lack of prospects they can get to commit.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:52 AM ^
OSU ran the ball for 249 yards on 37 carries last year, averaging 6.7 ypc. This year they ran 50 times for 264 yards, a healthy 5.3 ypc. Again, lots of context not captured in those numbers (Haskins wasn't a running threat while Fields is), but OSU has been able to run against Michigan the past couple of years regardless of who lines up at tackle.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:54 AM ^
Hmm, I guess my recollection of last year's OSU game has been bastardized due to the crossing route explosion. I forgot they even tried to run at all.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
Dobbins averaged 6.8 this year. Teague came in and lowered their game average a lot when it didn't matter anymore.
December 5th, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
last year Ohio State ran the ball 36 for 172 years, Parris Campbell reverse was consider a forward pass
December 6th, 2019 at 12:44 AM ^
Stats from last year:
December 5th, 2019 at 1:11 PM ^
Mone was called that in Spring 2016, before he blew out his knee. He was never that good again. In fact, he became nothing more than a space eater that could also be moved out when doubled. Last year, Dwumfour was nothing but a pass rusher - he was a distinct liability against the run. This year, lots of the same though he seemed to get better at run protection. However, he gives up 40 pounds to OSU's interior beef collection. Kemp, also, gives up ~40 and hasn't been a 'threat' against either the run or pass - a prototypical space eater.
Last year, OSU was easily able to single up on Kemp and Dwumfour so they could double Gary and Winovich. This year, they were easily able to single up on the entire DL. I don't care how good your pass coverage is, if you give any P5 QB 7 full seconds to throw the ball, he'll find the guy that gets open. Give OSU that much time and you're fucked.
Smith and Hinton need to show out next year. No pressure, though... :)
December 5th, 2019 at 1:50 PM ^
There absolutely is a way to gameplan around undersized DTs. Coaches have to do it all the time. You have to account for it with execution and fakes/deception. This is where a creative DC can go with a 3 man line and 3 or 4 linebackers, and with preparation and execution can call enough complex gap attacks to mitigate the size differential.
And besides, yardage between the 30s isn't where games are won and lost. Michigan didn't lose because of Dobbins' YPC. They lost because of big plays against.
That's what happens when you go man on 3rd and 14 on the opening drive and then later blitz on 2nd and 19.
There was not and is not 30 points worth of talent differential on these two rosters, yet that's been about the average margin of victory the last two years.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:51 PM ^
Lack of DT depth is on Harbaugh. If he wanted to go pick up more DT's in previous classes I'm sure some 3*'s could have been had. I don't blame anyone for not bringing in 5* DT's because every program is trying to get them. I'm sure people will have their opinions, but if we are talking about the most important group on the field I say it's your front 4. The defensive line can be run stuffers and make a secondary look good based on the pressure they can apply. If anyone thought we had a chance after seeing this DL even from game 1 they were dreaming. You can gameplan all you want, but if you don't have 'dudes' you're not going to win.
December 5th, 2019 at 7:09 PM ^
The HC has to be the main roster management guy. It's on him first and foremost. Also, the coaches don't just recruit their position. When Dax declared for Alabama, the story was about how Sherrone Moore got on the phone with him. Not sure Brown is any more to blame for the DT situation than any other coach.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^
35-0 at Wisconsin, 21-0 at Penn State and then 56 a year after 62.
We made sweeping changes to the offense last offseason and it’s paid off.
Time to give someone else a try to figure it out. Don has had more than enough chances.
Harbaugh won’t and shouldn’t go anywhere so tweaks have to keep being made until we get it right.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:05 AM ^
if you are going to use 2 years of evidence vs OSU you should probably also use 2 years for Wisco and PSU. They combined for 20 points total in 2018 against D. Brown.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:11 AM ^
Wisconsin wasn’t any good last year but PSU was a great performance. So was ND this year.
Too inconsistent in big games against good teams though.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:13 AM ^
This is retroactively penalizing. Can't have it both ways.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:22 AM ^
No, it really isn't. Wisconsin wasn't any good in 2018. Like, they were clearly not good when we played them. They had already lost at home to a pretty bad BYU team. That doesn't mean that he hasn't had impressive defensive performances, he clearly has. It is just that Wisconsin in 2018 is not very high on the list.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:38 PM ^
Jonathon Taylor rushed for 2194 yards in 2018. Teams that aren't "any good" don't have the 7th leading single season rusher of all time. There has to be some good in there.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:49 PM ^
Look, they lost 5 games. They scored 10 points against Penn State. Northwestern held them to 17. OK Taylor ran for a lot of yards but it was not a particularly threatening offense.
December 5th, 2019 at 2:35 PM ^
Taylor was getting plenty of yards against our D in 2018, then they stopped giving him the ball. He had 17 carries for 101 yards (just under 6 ypc), but only 6 of those carries (for 22 yards) were in the second half. Once they got down by 17 they felt they had to pass more, and Hornibrook started the second half 0-8 with a pick-6.
It just seemed like critically bad coaching by Chryst to not give Taylor the ball 30 times, because he seemed like he was getting 7 yards every time in the first half, then they'd put in Groshek for a 1 yard gain or throw an incomplete pass and have to punt. Their first half TD drive was three chunk runs for Taylor, then they caught the defense overcommitting inside and hit us with a jet sweep for a big TD run, which wasn't Taylor running, but he is the reason it broke so big. It seemed like every time they did something other than a run to Taylor it was a win for the defense.
December 5th, 2019 at 7:52 PM ^
I agree. and I will give you Wisconsin 2018. My point is if we think the opponent is shit, we should point it out right after the game, instead of waiting till the end of the season. Some of the opponents Michigan has faced in the past few years have been atrocious.
December 6th, 2019 at 1:22 PM ^
That is a tough ask though because we really don't know how good or bad teams truly are until after the season, or at a minimum, later on. I think we can all agree that the current Michigan team is better than the team that almost lost to Army. Teams can improve throughout the year and, conversely, teams highly ranked might be overrated. Sometimes teams just have an off day or a bad game, or play out of their mind, which makes it really hard to determine the quality of any opponent immediately after a game. I'm with you in thinking it would be great if we could do that though. It'd certainly make analysing games a little easier.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:06 AM ^
Yes, let's cherrypick his worst games and ignore the fact that we curbstomped two of our three rivals this year and that Brown has been responsible for the tenure with the highest ranked and most talented (by draft picks) defenses Michigan has fielded in the last few decades.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:16 AM ^
Awesome. We beat a horrible MSU team and a decent ND team.
Again, all that matters at this point is OSU and winning the B10. This defense has folded like paper on the big stages.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:33 AM ^
We also beat the Indiana, the top passing offense in the B10. And held their QB to a 42.8 QBR and 14 points.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:45 AM ^
How bout holding Army to 21 points? They were supposed to be undefeated or something.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:51 AM ^
Holding them to 14 points in regulation... Really going to blame that game on the defense?
December 5th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^
Not at all. Can't expect to stop the 70th ranked offense from scoring a TD in OT.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
You really gonna be on the defense for allowing 14 points? Out of everything there is to potentially complain about, you're picking 'Gave up 14 points to a triple option team'
December 5th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^
An Indiana that was missing their starting QB, #1 receiver and #2 receiver was hobbled. Yeah great work Kenpom Don
December 5th, 2019 at 12:22 PM ^
Notre Dame was a 10-2 team with the #21 SP+ offense and we completely obliterated them.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
"a decent ND team"
see, this is the BS where no win Harbaugh ever has is a big win. If we hadn't beaten them, Notre Dame would be arguing about how they should have a spot in the playoff because their only loss was a close one @UGA and we absolutely smoked that team.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^
Yeah they are a decent team.
They beat absolutely no one of note.
They are a decent/good team. They ain't great. Let's not pump that up to make ourselves feel better. It was a NICE win. It was a good one to have. But it was nothing more than that.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^
My issue is that his most talented defenses consisted primarily of Brady Hoke's players. Beating MSU and ND is nice, but we got paved by Wisconsin and OSU. If that's because we don't have the size and/or speed we need on defense, that's on Don Brown.
I think Harbaugh should put some feelers out to see if someone else worthwhile is available. Maybe someone a bit younger who can recruit his ass off.
And if we're sticking with Brown, he needs to start signing players that can stand up to the gigantic OL's we face from OSU, Wisconsin, and God willing, Alabama.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
I hate these comments about Hoke's players. You're comparing 3 senior classes to essentially 1.5 for Harbaugh. Were Hoke's players going to be NFL players before Harbaugh got here? Or did Harbaugh/Durkin/Brown develop them to be?
December 5th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^
Player development has been good for the most part. Recent recruiting and player retention? Not so much.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:25 AM ^
"two of our three rivals"
Its phrases like that which will prevent us from beating OSU. Because hey, we have a winning record against our rivals...
OSU has one rival.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:58 PM ^
Brilliant. You nailed it. We lost to OSU because we already beat MSU and Notre Dame. I'll call up the AD and see if they'll hire you
December 5th, 2019 at 12:25 PM ^
True but does not matter. He has lots of credits, he also has faults, and sorry, being blown out--not losing, but blown away and humiliated, twice in a row (and really, twice a year) is not excusable. I think he's a really good coach and teacher who we should let go.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:31 AM ^
I don't think I agree with your rationale. I thought our defense this year was a pleasant surprise considering what they replaced. I also think we have gotten so spoiled to the fantastic defenses that Michigan has had the past few years, that when there is a bad game the sky starts falling. We have some serious holes this year that we managed to paper over, the interior defensive line being the biggest. The two teams on our schedule built to punish your d-line, did just that. We could play this year's Wisconsin and Ohio State 10 times and try 10 different schemes and I think they would steam roll us every time because of what they are built to do and what our weakness is. Minnesota would also be a very hard game for us if we played them this year.
I am also struggling to take your argument seriously when you included the PSU game. We played Penn State at night, on the road, in a white out, and gave up 28 total points and less than 300 yards. We are considering that a horrible defensive performance? It was all Don Brown's fault we got down 21-0? I don't follow your logic.
December 5th, 2019 at 11:34 AM ^
We have serious holes to paper over. Don Brown has been the DC for four years now. Why are there holes needing paper in the first place? Where is our depth?
December 5th, 2019 at 11:53 AM ^
I'm sorry, I guess I should have been more exact instead of generalizing. We lost a lot of talent from last years defense, and had a bunch of new starters. 3 on the dline, 1 linebacker (that turned into 2 but that was a good thing), and 2 in the secondary. So over half the defense was new starters. We went into the year wondering about our 2nd safety, what the interior defensive line was going to look like, and hoping Ambry would live up to his recruiting hype (remember he hadn't really played yet so we didn't know). I think what actually happened was better than we could have expected. We thought Dax Hill would be the 2nd safety, something that was a harbinger of a mediocre defense as freshman safeties are very bust prone. Hill was still busting in the Indiana game, so if he was full time safety I assume it would have been very noticeable. Hawkins ended up being the starter and was pretty steady. He wasn't perfect but he was adequate. I think that was better than we anticipated, as we are now expecting him and Hill to be starters next year. Safety play this year wasn't great, and was obviously exposed against OSU again, but was better than our fears before the season. Ambry definitely lived up to his recruiting hype and then some. He played as good as we could have hoped and probably better. Thank god, because that 2nd corner spot will be a big question again next year. And finally the interior defensive line, the one spot we got exactly what we expected. Looked like a big weakness, was a big weakness. Could be one again next year unless freshmen make big improvements. The linebackers turned out to be about as good. McGrone was not Devin Bush, but not horribly far off and Glasgow was better than the platoon from the year before, and Hudson played better than the previous year. So I guess there was only one major hole, the interior DL. The other hole, that really only teams like OSU and to a lesser extent PSU could exploit were our safeties and the lack of big time athleticism.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^
I think we have good depth on D. Unproven because Brown doesn't play them, but it's there.
Except at DT/NT. Which we've discussed ad nauseam.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:14 PM ^
Do you believe that to be the case at cornerback as well? That is the spot that concerns me going forward, more so than DT. Hinton will probably be good next year, and he still have hopes for Smith. There are enough bodies there that we should get some productive players. I can't say the same about cornerback.
December 5th, 2019 at 1:06 PM ^
DT, now a little thinner at LB, and CB is a nightmare.
December 5th, 2019 at 12:18 PM ^
There's a pretty good diary pointing out that OSU is basically doing the same thing to Brown that they did to Durkin and Mattison on a per-drive basis. They just play much faster now. We get Ohio State's full attention and a special gameplan that they practice literally every week of the season (according to Day). This is not a good recipe when a team has superior linemen, a 5* QB, an elite RB, and elite speed at WR. I'm really hoping that Mazi and Hinton can contribute next year in a big way because I think that's the key to slowing down OSU and Wisconsin.
Regarding the sweeping changes, I'm not sure a new DC is going to be any better than Harbaugh just telling Brown that he needs to recruit more DTs. In terms of scheming and in-game adjustments, Brown is one of the best in the business. When we had big DTs we slowed them down. That can be addressed with a recruiting priority shift rather than a coaching overhaul.