B1G coaches "urge action" from Tony Petitti
Thought this was an interesting article that was recently published.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38798293/big-ten-coach…
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:03 AM ^
Bring the Fox show so everyone can BOO over Urban whenever he talks
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:21 AM ^
ESPN has sucked for years and years I quit watching anything but live sporting events a long time ago.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:30 AM ^
ESPN sucks and has become a yellow journalism outfit, it's sad
Become? As far as college football goes, it's been ESECPN for two decades now.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:22 AM ^
Harbaugh's 25 losses at Michigan:
@Utah
#7 MSU (trouble with the snap)
#8 OSU
@Iowa
@ #2 OSU
#11 FSU (Orange Bowl)
MSU
@ #2 PSU
@ #5 Wisconsin
#8 OSU
South Carolina (Outback Bowl)
@ #12 ND
@ #10 OSU
#10 UF (Peach Bowl)
@ #13 Wisconsin
@ #7 PSU
#1 OSU
#13 Alabama (Citrus Bowl)
**2020 COVID year (MSU, @ #13 Indiana, #13 Wisconsin, PSU)
@ #8 MSU
#3 Georgia (CFP Semifinal)
#3 TCU (CFP Semifinal)
There is seriously not really a SINGLE BAD LOSS out of these games (except COVID year which was obviously unusual all around). Rivalry games, bowl games, road games against good teams are the games that he has lost.
Michigan has been good for Harbaugh's entire tenure, which is consistent with HIS ENTIRE COACHING CAREER. Which coaches are claiming "tainted," "fraudulent" and "unprecedented."?
Teams that have never beaten Michigan in the last 9 years, but all of a sudden they are winning now because of 'cheating'?
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:46 AM ^
It's true that some coaches have said that sign-stealing provides “an incremental advantage, at best.” But even an incremental advantage is still one you're not supposed to have, if you got it illegally. And there are also some coaches who have said the advantage is a lot more than that. At this point we want to believe the advantage is minimal, but that doesn't make it so.
You have to figure that when Stalions went through all that effort, he believed he was getting something useful out of it.
Ohio State vacated its entire 2010 season because of a few tattoos. Ohio State didn’t get any better at football because a handful of players were tattooed, and yet that was the penalty. So what do you expect the penalty to be in this case?
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:57 AM ^
I’m just preparing for the worst. I look for the big to step in and do something, at some point. All the coaches are screaming from the rooftops. OSU has no shot to win it all this year and we’re realistically the best chance for the conference to win a championship. I don’t think that will be enough in the end. Once again, innocent players and staff don’t deserve that. Who TF knows anymore. But if that numb nuts was at the CMU game I’d say that’s the final nail.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:05 AM ^
OSU has no shot to win it all this year?
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:10 PM ^
Unless we’re ruled ineligible, not a chance. OSU is soft in the trenches and has our version of Shea Patterson without the Jimmy legs. For some dam reason they go through running backs like Hoke went through lineman. We will absolutely roll all the teams they’ve claimed to be world beaters minus ND. Not a chance.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:33 AM ^
You're tacitly assuming that schools with big war chests (thinking principally of OSU here) don't already do the same thing. There are a lot of those in the Big Ten.
Consider: This might just be a good opportunity for them to #*$& over Michigan. Even if the lesser-endowed schools realize that, it probably wouldn't bother them that much.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:41 AM ^
Dude- it wasn't tattoos it was drugs.
November 2nd, 2023 at 6:57 AM ^
Wait, what?
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:39 AM ^
They were trading OSU apparel for drugs- this portion of the the story is known but wasn't reported on at all.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:14 PM ^
I’d trade OSU shit for some kiva chocolate. I live in Ohio and kiva chocolate isn’t legal.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:05 AM ^
It was more than tattoos.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:10 AM ^
I don’t think that the NCAA should come down hard on Michigan. I honestly don’t know what the precedent would be for this, but the right answer is they should reinstate OSU’s wins from that season, because I agree it’s stupid they had to vacate.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:17 AM ^
Ohio State vacated the 2010 season because Tressel lied to the NCAA about knowing about the tattoos.
I guarantee if he had just been upfront about it, they would have suspended players, deducted some scholarships and that would have been about it.
If its true that this did not go above Stalions, I expect he will be fired, Michigan will be on probation and Jim Harbaugh might get a suspension. The Big Ten might fine Michigan. Michigan may lose some scholarships, but that will be about it.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:40 AM ^
A few tattoos?
"Earlier this week, "Outside the Lines" spoke to a former friend of (Terrell) Pryor's who said Pryor netted anywhere from $20,000 to $40,000 in 2009-10 for signing mini football helmets and other gear."
"But last year (2009), the auditors reviewed car registrations of 152 (OSU) athletes and observed vehicles driven by football players to spring practice. Auditors found that 44 athletes bought parking permits for, received parking tickets in, or were seen driving cars that weren't registered."
They're required to show the school the registration, who is making the payments, etc. to establish ownership. Almost 29% of the football vehicles were "gifts" from boosters.
"Wiping out the wins, which includes a Big Ten championship and Sugar Bowl victory, is part of the university's response to an NCAA Notice of Allegations submitted on Friday.
In it, Ohio State is admitting major violations but does not suggest losing scholarships or receiving a postseason ban because no other school official other than former coach Jim Tressel was aware of the transgressions."
They played ineligible players, lied about it and were forced to vacate all their wins.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:04 PM ^
Right. OSU used ineligible players during the entire Tressel tenure (Clarett, Troy Smith, Tyrelle Pryor being the highlights). But I guarantee none of the Buckeye fans clamoring that Michigan be hammered with the death penalty give a single shit about it. And I can say as a Michigan fan I personally don't look at the 2010 game and think "Oh right that one doesn't count!".
And if you think the program was cleaned up while Urban Meyer was in town...do you think that assertion would pass investigation by several highly paid investigators? Do you think it would pass right now?
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:32 AM ^
Ohio State vacated its entire 2010 season because of a few tattoos. Ohio State didn’t get any better at football because a handful of players were tattooed, and yet that was the penalty. So what do you expect the penalty to be in this case?
I'm ignoring the rumor about drugs. It wasn't tattoos. It was that Tressel didn't report credible compliance violations up the chain of command, knowingly played players all season that he knew would have been ineligible had he followed the rules, and then repeatedly lied to the NCAA throughout the investigation afterward.
Not to mention OSU was paying players long before it was legal. Is that not at least an incremental advantage?
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^
osu had wins vacated because it *systematically lied* to the ncaa about various advantages it was using in recruiting and retaining players (the tattoos among them). Had they been honest when asked about them and self-imposed some punishment, they likely would not have been vacated.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:32 AM ^
The level of impact is subjective. This blog asserts its mostly meaningless and there have been a few coaches and former players that agree. A survey of 50 coaches the athletic did found that over 70% of coaches thought it was a meaningful advantage. Michigan is 5-2 in one score football games over the alleged timeline. If we lose the PSU game in 21 we don't win the big ten or make the playoff. If we lose Illinois last year it probably doesn't change anything.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
I think this would be a lot easier for all of us to discuss in a meaningful way if at least one coach would explain it. Ideally, we'd have coaches publicly saying not only that this NCAA defined minor violation is a grievous violation, but also explain in detail how 1) sign stealing itself is an outsized advantage and 2) the knowledge gained by in-person scouting is significantly impactful beyond legal sign stealing.
So far all we have are a bunch of anonymous coaches saying, without explanation, that it's just the worst most unfair thing ever. Pardon me for not assuming these coaches don't have some other agenda in their responses.
Bob Stoops is the only current or former coach who has come out and said (paraphrasing) "This is craziness, no one has ever done anything this brazen before," but he did not say that it created a significant advantage that must be addressed.
All the other current coaches on the record have basically said what Jim said: You shouldn't break NCAA rules, that's bad.
Now all that said, I have been less pollyanna than others in regards to what kind of punishment we'll be getting. Like you said, it's reasonable to think it could have been enough of an advantage to swing a one score game, of which we had several in 2021-22. So I don't rule out the possibility of vacated wins coming. I also care less about that than others.
In terms of punishing Michigan for this year (where we have yet to have even a four score game I think, maybe as close as three? and beat MSU 49-0 without them using signs) we are already serving a punishment. We lost our sign stealer guy for the rest of the year (remember, sign stealing is legal and most teams have a sign stealer guy). Plus other teams, if they're smart, won't use signs anymore (use wristbands you nitwits!) because they all know that we key in on that. Of course they already knew for the last two years, so they didn't really learn anything new about us in the last month.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:39 AM ^
Dan Lanning very publicly said he thought it would be a major advantage as just one example. Its not really an obligation for a coach to go into detail why it might be helpful for a team to know if you are going run or pass
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
I looked for that Dan Lanning quote because you referenced it before. The only quotes I saw from Dan Lanning is that he said his UGA defense kicked our ass in in the CFP and that it's on you to keep your signs from getting stolen.
Coaches are not under an obligation to explain why sign stealing helps (since they all do it obviously they all think it helps) nor are they under an obligation to explain how much it helps and how much the illegal sign stealing helps beyond the legal sign stealing. And we are under no obligation to believe anonymous coaches who all have an agenda to push up their programs by putting down another.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:44 AM ^
A survey of 50 coaches the athletic did found that over 70% of coaches thought it was a meaningful advantage
Yes, and they have a motivation to say that. I don't understand where people are getting this idea that an anonymous polling of coaches means that they're going to be a neutral party giving a neutral opinion. Everything in college football is interrelated
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
Because what else are you going to get? We can't as fans just decide its not a big advantage because we don't want it to be. Coaches have publicly said its a big advantage too. I know I don't know if its a big advantage, it seems like there are disagreements about the level of advantage it would provide. That isn't some hot take. Clearly Michigan's coaches thought it provided at least some advantage or Stallions wouldn't have been standing next to the coordinators
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:57 AM ^
Stealing signs may be a big advantage or it may not be, but it is also not against the rules. That is not the relevant question. The relevant question is how much more information did Stalions get by having people record games in person, and/or whether or not any coaches knew that the information he was providing them was the result of prohibited activity.
So the response to a coach complaining about the other team knowing whether it is a run or a pass is "tough shit, it is legal."
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
The relevant question is how much more information did Stalions get by having people record games in person
I haven't seen every post from ak47 but I've seen enough to believe that you're not going to get a meaningful response to that point.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
If the polling wasn’t anonymous, you would get different results… probably because many of those coaches also are involved with stealing signs. Also, a “few” former coaches and players? I’d say it’s everyone who has been asked and had to put their name on the statement… minus everyone that has something clear to gain by blowing this up. How do you account for the NCAA almost repealing this rule a few years ago because of minimal competitive advantage?
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
The poll is worthless because we have no idea how that pool of coaches was chosen. Did The Athletic contact 500 coaches/analysts? 1000? 2000? Were these the only 50?
Plus, there has been a huge discrepancy between active coaches speaking in public and behind closed doors. What active coach has said anything close to any of the comments in that article?
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
Not only have others said that sign stealing provides only an incremental, but also that "Literally everybody we talked to knew" about the sign stealing. So, if everyone knew AND B1G coaches didn't change their signs, letting Michigan obtain an advantage, then those coaches are appallingly incompetent.
November 2nd, 2023 at 10:47 AM ^
100% agreed.
Also, I’m confused. Act on what? All we have are allegations. That’s it. Unless I missed something and the NCAA came out of the investigation with damning evidence that all of the coaches are tied to the “sign stealings”(or whatever you want to call it) and they are 100% cheating.
I really hope that the investigation wraps up and shows that Michigan and the coaches are not at fault(not saying that I believe otherwise, but who knows at this point.) and that they only found that Stalions was acting alone. I want these haters to eat crow.
November 2nd, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
Also, per coach Third Base himself, Michigan didn’t have his signs last year. This is empirical evidence that having the signs actually hurts.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:16 AM ^
This goes for this article and the Feldman article where 50 coaches were polled: Of course coaches that have a vested interest in Michigan/Harbaugh getting suspended, whether that’s in recruiting, winning games or for getting into the CFP, are going to lie in a poll or whine to the B1G. I’m tired of media and fans acting like these anonymous coaches are somehow righteous and moral, when they’re just looking for an advantage
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:20 AM ^
All you need to know that this is all bullshit is that none of these people making a big deal about it will put their names to it.
No active coach would dare do it because he doesn't want to open himself up to people digging around his program and finding out just how hypocritical his complaints happen to be.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:41 AM ^
Exactly. What about the report where many analysts from different got together on Sundays to give info to each other. May be it is untrue. I am sure everyone does this and they don't want that to come out.
November 2nd, 2023 at 1:00 PM ^
Pete Thamel has zero credibility.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:18 AM ^
Big Ten isn't doing anything. Why would they. The investigation is ongoing and they aren't even the ones doing the investigation. Taking action against one of their top schools when nothing has really been proven would be dumb
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:39 AM ^
Not to mention expensive.
I imagine Michigan will sue them if they try anything.
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:43 AM ^
If that happens we absolutely should sue their balls off, if for no other reason than to make them pay to defend the suit. So long as they want to press a vendetta so too can we for all the bullshit we‘ve historically endured from them.
November 2nd, 2023 at 5:02 AM ^
Financially, this is a different dynamic than the NCAA. Any money we make the Big Ten pay for a lawsuit is less money Michigan gets from the Big 10. So they could actually out spend us in a law suit unless Steven Ross is financing it.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:34 AM ^
No, if the B1G takes punitive action without due process and without investigation, you can bet your ass they get sued, and the number will be astronomically high. The reputational damage to the team and university is huge, even though the NCAA itself said there is little benefit.
Our rivals would jump on any opportunity to get a cheap win out of any kind of violation, so their opinions mean nothing. Hopefully the B1G is smart enough to let it all play out.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:34 AM ^
Should sue WaPo, ESPN, and WSJ for defamation while we are at it. All of those anonymous sources and investigative firms would be revealed.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:38 AM ^
Unless there were actions much deeper than we know, the matter would likely end up in a courtroom.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:21 AM ^
If the B1G so much as cuts a tiny fart about this fake news "scandal" then I think we should go to the SEC.
Fuck the B1G. Fuck ESPN. Fuck Ohio State.
November 2nd, 2023 at 7:58 AM ^
You can't say "go to the SEC" and "fuck ESPN" in the same breath. They are quite literally one in the same.
November 2nd, 2023 at 8:15 AM ^
Clearly this is ESPN’s long con. Get Michigan pissed at the BIG Ten so we jump ship to the SEC and improve their ratings. Makes sense.
But seriously, if at any point the BIG instates a significant suspension on the coaches or a post season ban, that stadium should be chanting SEC on national television.
November 2nd, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^
These guys are the commissioners boss. If your boss tells you to do something your options are convince them its a bad idea, do it, or quit. The fact that AD's and coaches are calling for this is meaningful and bad, you can't just pretend its not
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:19 AM ^
There's no way Petitti does anything here. I assume UM would file an injunction if needed? Or perhaps my terminology is wrong, but Michigan would take some legal recourse against the conference?
November 2nd, 2023 at 12:44 AM ^
Petitti would prefer not to address this at all ----- in his ideal world, he spends 100% of his time negotiating TV contracts, showing up at B1G events, staying at 5-star hotels and spending his $5,000,000/year salary.
But --- it sure does seem like he's going to have to address this soon. It feels inevitable: some of these coaches are going to go public, put their names on their statements. And then this really becomes a mess.
I'm honestly trying to be objective here. At this point, I'm struggling to see an "off ramp" for this story --- a way for this story to decelerate.