Two interesting nuggets I picked up in Madison this weekend

Submitted by Maizen on

Sat in front of a parent of a player who said that our center has no idea (I think he was exaggerating a bit) what line protections to call against stems and stunts and that this was also a problem last year with Mason Cole. He said Michigan does too much big on big blocking and not enough combo and slide protections. I'm not an OL so I have no idea what this means. Probably not breaking news, but it was a confirmation of sorts that this might be a systemic problem.

The second tidbit I picked up was actually from a Wisconsin fan at dinner after the game at The Old Fashioned (great burgers if you ever make it to Madison). We got to talking about the game and the subject of some of those brutal calls (and no calls) came up. He said don't expect it to get better for Michigan. I asked why. He claimed he went to college with someone "high up" in the B1G office who deals with officials and that he's made several off handed comments to him about "sticking it" to Harbaugh and Michigan. The guy was laughing while he was telling me this like it was an open secret or something. I was going to press for more info but my friends were more interested in getting his takes on what bars to go afterwards. Like always take it fwiw.

EDIT: Can't be certain but after some digging I think this may be the guy he was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Carollo

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evenyoubrutus

November 20th, 2017 at 2:47 PM ^

Further, if the knowledge of this "conspiracy" were that well known wouldn't it have easily gotten back to Harbaugh, Manuel and co? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this bordering on felonious activity since it is more or less fixing games? They would have way more than a lawsuit on their hands.

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NowTameInThe603

November 20th, 2017 at 11:45 AM ^

I dont know how the stunt pickups have not been addressed. Was talking to a buddy during the game after watching replay after replay of stunts getting thru. And we were wondering if it was coaching or execution. I always lead coaching because I just dont think players can be dumb enough to be told the right thing to do but continue to make the same mistakes. I also dont think Kugler is blameless though.

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Magnus

November 20th, 2017 at 11:53 AM ^

a) Players can be awfully dumb sometimes. I have numerous stories I could tell you, but I won't bother. Sometimes it's a lack of focus, sometimes it's not having the muscle memory, sometimes it's being confused because the game is moving too quickly, etc. I'm not saying there aren't poor coaches out there, but I think "coaching" is an easy scapegoat for a lot of people.

b) However, "dumb" is relative. You can draw up plays and watch film and have everything down perfectly, but then when you get on the field, sometimes it doesn't translate. It doesn't mean Player X is truly an idiot. It just means that playing football at a high level is very hard to do.

c) The guys who are struggling the most are generally the most inexperienced guys. Cole is doing well, I think Kugler has had a bad rap, and Bredeson has been hit-or-miss. The weak spots in pass pro have been Ulizio, Bushell-Beatty, Ruiz, and Onwenu this year, and the only guy to play any significant time before this year was Bushell-Beatty for about one full game in 2016. Michigan should have several more guys available this year (Chris Fox, Kyle Bosch, Logan Tuley-Tillman, etc.), but they don't for various reasons.

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His Dudeness

November 20th, 2017 at 11:47 AM ^

Frey is one of the best OL coaches in the business. Only caveat being he *might* need more than 3 months on the job to get the guys rolling. It's going to be ok. Just don't watch on Saturday.

Joined: 11/24/2008

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Zoltanrules

November 20th, 2017 at 11:52 AM ^

may be the most important on offense after QB. People talk about MSU being inexperienced but with Allen it is a real strength. I'm not sure we have had a dominant center in a system they are comfortable with for some time.

By the way I don't believe either story.

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pkatz

November 20th, 2017 at 1:12 PM ^

"The five-second rule has little effect on the amount of bacteria you would pick up from a heavily contaminated surface," says Dr Cutler. "Think about this, if you drop food on a floor, it's better to put it in the bin rather than your mouth.

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bronxblue

November 20th, 2017 at 11:54 AM ^

Oh yeah, these are totally believable.  Did you also hear something about Michigan's recruiting while playing Counter-Strike?

EDIT:  Oh man, I just saw who the OP was.  Yeah, I am 1000% certain this is total bullshit.

Joined: 11/22/2008

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skegemogpoint

November 20th, 2017 at 11:55 AM ^

Need not assign any weight to what a parent in the stand says. Rather, pay attention to what two great, former Michigan OL have publicly stated. Listen to Dan Dierdorf's post WIS game comments and Doug Skene's podcast with Chris Balas.  The OL is a mess despite fact there is plenty of talent and experience. 

Joined: 07/08/2008

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maize-blue

November 20th, 2017 at 1:04 PM ^

Doug Skene said that there are red flags in regards to the offensive coaching as they are continually making the same mistakes over and over and in week 11 and getting their QB's killed. He thinks Harbaugh may be forced to look and evaluate his offensive assistant staff. 

He was also a bit dissappointed in that he didn't see much fight or aggression from the offensive lineman themselves after the Peters hit. 

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Ramblin

November 20th, 2017 at 6:55 PM ^

Did Skene think the hit was dirty?  I keep trying to justify my perception that it was dirty, but I get the feeling I'm in the minority.

That turn and drive to break a collarbone is an old trick and it looked like they used it to me. 

I was fully expecting at least an exchange of words.  Instead it was just "oh well" from the O-lIne.  That extra bit of rubbing his face in the dirt should have pissed someone of.

It's a fine line.  Retaliate and you get a flag.  However, how long can you just take it without it leading to weakness.

I get the same feeling from Harbaugh.  He has to be pissed but he isn't freaking out like he did last year because he doesn't want to hurt the team or make the refs/Delaney hate us even more.

At some point you just need to say screw it and go off?  Shit, being nice hasn't worked?

 

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mgobaran

November 20th, 2017 at 12:01 PM ^

DL stunts work a good portion of the time and that's why all coaches call them including ours and that we only notice when our OL fails to pick them up or our DL fails to execute or gets RPO'd? And that this leaves us fans with a feeling that a.) they must be easy to stop if ours don't get home and b.) our OL is incapable of stopping them.

 

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MGoHarbaugh77

November 20th, 2017 at 12:02 PM ^

To help clarify what those phrases are, as someone who coaches OL, a “big-on-big” (BOB) blocking scheme is similar to man coverage. Based on the front that the defense is in, each offensive lineman has a man assignment, often determined based on some sort of “Mike” or Point ID call that you often see centers and sometimes even QBs making (Matt Stafford consistently re-IDs the Mike for the Lions each time they audible). So what that means is that the center calls out on LB as being his assignment perhaps, and that tells everyone else on the line which man they’d be responsible for. The advantages here are that you can adjust the assignments to ensure you are blocking the 5 most threatening blitzers. Disadvantages are that you have OL setting everywhich way, increasing your susceptibility to stunts if they are not taking good sets. Slide protection is a gap responsibility. So for example, each OL is responsible for the gap to their left, then you have a TE or RB responsible for the end man on the line of scrimmage (EMOL). This is a very basic protection, pretty easy to pick up blocks with, but your issue is that often you end up getting a running back on the EMOL, which is usually a DE. Slide protections are usually more built into a quick game attack due to that reason. Michigan really doesn’t use quick game much, so it’s understandable that they don’t use slide protection that much. Most teams use a combo protection however, which is a concept that combines the two. So for example you can have a combo protection that has the LT, LG, and C in a zone slide to the left, while the RG, RT have BOB responsibilities to the backside. The center is usually then tasked with staying on the NT if the nose tackle stunts to his right. Additionally, the running back will have their usual count on LBs to identify and then block a blitzing LB. in a combo protection, it’s likely that their “count” will start w/ the LBs on the man side.

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KingCarr

November 20th, 2017 at 12:08 PM ^

I just like Maizen.  He is a fun poster.

How is our center suppose to know when a stunt or stem is coming?  Are the defensive lineman telling the center before the ball is snapped?  Feels like a cheap shot on our center unless the center is failing to call pass protections the coaches gameplan for.

Keep up the good work Maizen.  I do like reading your post and the nuclear meltdown aftermath.

 

 

 

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991GT3

November 20th, 2017 at 12:15 PM ^

referees are the blame for our losses? We are an average team that must play beyond expectations to win against a good team. It will not happen Saturday nor will it be the fault of the officials or OL. OSU is the better team and the only way they will lose is if the sleep walk as they did against Iowa.

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