Talking cars T-day, hybrid or EV?
Usually someone posts about cars on Thursday, but Tuesday begins with T. Close enough.
Many automotive connections in these parts, so I suspect someone has done some actual real research.
I have a Ford Fusion hybrid that I drive mostly in the city, and I am coaxing 49mpg out of it (mostly due to minimal use of HVAC). To me, that seems a fairly responsible use of fossil fuels. But said car is getting long in the tooth, and I am pondering what to buy next. In Toledo, where coal/nuclear are our sources, what are my best choices environmentally? Obviously, EVs have no direct emissions, but I know the transmission and step-down in voltages by the time electricity gets to my garage throws away a bunch of energy.
Which is more environmentally responsible here in the Midwest?
First, everyone has difference use cases and experiences. For me, I never really considered a hybrid because why cart along a gas engine when you don't really need it? The efficiency losses are real and the maintenance will be higher. Although I understand why hybrids are appealing for some people.
I have been pure EV for over 5 years now both as an everyday car and as my trip car (except in some limited instances when taking the family and a larger vehicle made more sense). I have been on road trips from NC to Michigan, DC, upstate NY, Florida, Georgia (not out west yet). Initially it took a bit of planning, now I barely have to think about it, especially if the trips are along or near highways. My car has about 300 miles of range although at highway speeds I probably get closer to 240 miles. So I stop and charge every 2.5 hours or so, for 15-20 minutes to use the restroom or get a snack and then I am on my way. I get there a bit later but I am much more refreshed and range is not really a big concern anymore. I prefer taking my EV on trips over another car. The reduced noise, passing power and technology make the drive so much more enjoyable. Just my experience.
Depends on your needs. Range, size, power/torque/towing/cargo, etc
Environmentally friendly gets real fuzzy real fast when you think about real world applications - all things equal, a car that needs less maintenance and can last longer is going to be better. And you don't have a great grasp on longevity and amount of maintenance when you are buying. Can vary car to car even in the same model
Personally, I would not buy a full EV yet just because of the lack of charging infrastructure and not wanting to support certain EV companies due to shenanigans and quality control. In 5-8 years when I need a new car? I'm hoping those issues will be resolved and I can get an EV
IF i were buying a new car right now I'd shoot for a plug-in hybrid. New Prius Prime looks pretty amazing tbh, and they have historically been darn near bulletproof and run forever. 44 miles advertised range on the battery, and mid-50s MPG when driving with the ICE, with MPGe around 120
I have a Jeep wrangler 4xe that I love. It can still do all the cool Jeep shit but for most of the week I drive around to work and kids school/practice stuff on all electric. When using the gas and electric I have like 370hp and we'll over 400ftlbs of torque!
Running a 2019 Camry Hybrid. About to turn 86K miles. Getting about 49 Mi./gal. In cold weather using heater/Def. Was getting 39-42 mpg with snow tires. Will get about 55-58mpg without A/C when it warms up. It’s been a good car, quick accel. and doesn’t require plugging in to charge. Toyota definitely has the most refined hybrid system.
My concern with electric cars is our fragile SE Mi grid. Chrysler is determined to go all electric by 2028. When there are 3-5 day power outages how are people going to get to work? the demand for electricity will only continue to go up, without substantial investment we’ll continue to have problems. How many electric cars and trucks are on the road? <5% I’d guess.
I live in the DC area where EVs are ubiquitous and the public charging infrastructure is orders of magnitude better than Michigan. That said, I've had my non-Tesla EV for nearly two years and rarely use public charging. Charging at home is essential for EV ownership because its easy, convenient and low cost, after the initial investment. If you can't charge at home, I wouldn't recommend an EV. I do use public charging for trips (back to Michigan and up//down I-95). Those trips are doable now but the infrastructure needs to get much better away from the East Coast as the numbers of EVs increase. The idea that EVs cannot road trip because they charge slow is a myth. My EV charges fast and is a much better overall road-tripper than my ICE.
I didn't buy my EV for environmental reasons and realize EVs are not for every use case, but I rarely drive my ICE anymore and will probably have two EVs when it comes time to trade in the ICE.
Disclaimer - I work for Toyota. For most people, plug-in hybrid is probably the way to go. You get the EV range you need for most daily commutes and you don't need to have range anxiety. And, most importantly, the battery industry isn't yet clean. The mining is filthy, then almost all the refining takes place in China so you are using fossil fuels to ship the materials for refining, then ship them to their next location. The battery you need to have 300 miles of range is heavy and oversized for most daily drives, which means, for most people, 80% of the battery is rarely used. The same resources that go into that one battery, could create several plug-in hybrids, or perhaps dozens of regular hybrids, thereby maximizing the use of those natural resources, and the benefits those resources can provide. I'd prefer the OEMs continue to focus on the creation of green hydrogen since we've already proven that we can build an internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen and the infrastructure to move from gas to hydrogen is much easier than developing a power grid that can handle the charging requirements of an all-EV future.
If you were going to run a vehicle using hydrogen, wouldn’t you use a fuel cell, not an IC engine? Isn’t the IC engine both less efficient and dirtier?
Great seeing all the different perspectives. Wife and I will be in the market this spring/summer to replace her ICE compact crossover SUV (5 seater). I've been driving a Tesla Model 3 for five years and want our next vehicle to be a hybrid based on our BEV experience (ideally with some pure EV range for around town). Ideally want a vehicle with four captain chairs and flexibility to seat 6-7, so not sure where to turn.
Have done some research on the following: Volvo XC90 (more than I want to spend, and I've heard reliability issues?)
New Toyota Grand Highlander (no pure EV mode, but new hybrid engine will get 34 mpg?)
We drive from Washtenaw County to Traverse City all summer so I want something that won't require a charging stop... open to ideas... we can also wait until next year and ride the no car payment train a while longer.
My wife traded in her Lexus RX 350h for a BMW iX. Installing a level 2 charger was quite expensive as we had to upgrade our house power from 200 to 400 AMPS. No more gas or oil changes, so environmentally, I think we’re better off, but who knows.
She loves her new car
Why 400 amp? What else are you running? We have 200 amp service and it's perfectly fine for a level 2 charger. No issues whatsoever. IX wasn't available when we bought our etron, but it's the best care we've ever owned.
A large house. 40-50 AMPS for the charger.
I am going to buy gas/diesel trucks until batteries become a viable replacement, meaning the following are in place.
1. full charge in the same time it would take me to get gas and a snack
2. the range is the same (I get 17 mpg in my v8 truck and can go ~420 miles between fill ups)
3. there’s as many charging ports as gas stations around so I can stop when needed without preplanning a route that could add a lot of time to the trip.
I drive ~22k miles a year and the general unavailability of charging ports and the speed of charging makes it pointless. Also, not worried about environmental impact when Greta Thurnburg and Al Gore and everyone else that tells me to be worried about the environment regularly fly private jets that pollute more in one trip than my truck does in an entire year.
I like the idea of the bullet-proof Tesla truck though
"I'm not going to worry about the environment because vocal environmentalists don't practice what they preach." Weird logic. I don't really care what the faces of the environmental movement do or don't do. They're not the scientists who have been studying this for decades.
Politics bleed so much into things that "new sources" can just show you a video of someone you dont like doing something to make sure you DONT do that thing and fight it tooth and nail. Everyone yelling "king me" thinking they are winning and not realizing the are playing the wrong game.
April 26th, 2023 at 11:00 PM ^
crazy because my comments had nothing to do with politics, which I don’t follow and have voted both R and D multiple times, depending on who the candidate is. it was more a statement on hypocrisy.
it’s like you can say something and people will see politics even when they’re not there
I completely understand your dynamics, Doc. I would offer this to your comment about elite assholes and the environment, we still have to take care of it for us and for our kids. If transportation isn’t an area you can chip in, no sweat everyone has different priorities and needs. Please don’t shut off all environmental focuses though, tons of ways to help keep our little space rock habitable for generations after us.
Separate from the environment, what if this is just normal progress creating better vehicles? A few months ago, everyone got all crazy because a government study said gas stoves are bad for the environment and the people who use them. People got all agitated about the government taking away their gas. After cooking with gas my entire adult life (and professional cooking life), I'm now an avowed induction user and have been for 6 years. I had no idea it was better for the environment, but I can tell you, it's a great way to cook. It's as fast if not faster and more responsive than gas. It doesn't heat up the kitchen because the heat is directed towards the pot, not the air space around it. It's ridiculously easy to clean. And there's no open flame danger if kids are cooking. Plus the surface doesn't get blisteringly hot like a regular glass electric cooktop does (just used one recently and burned myself because I was so used to induction). So while there is an environmental advantage to induction, I use it because it's better to cook on.
Greta Thunberg doesn't fly private, by the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Voyages_of_Greta_Thunberg#:~:text=In%20various%20places%20around%20the,fly%20except%20for%20emergency%20cases.
April 26th, 2023 at 12:19 AM ^
Not only does Greta Thunberg not fly around in private jets, she doesn't fly at all. Sounds like you've been fed some false information.
And it really shouldn't matter what Al Gore is doing. Have some integrity and do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. If you don't want to drive an EV, fine, don't do it. But if you partake in excessive resource consumption, don't blame it on someone else. It's your choice, own it.
April 26th, 2023 at 11:08 PM ^
I literally explained my choice and why I own it.
that’s what 95% of what I typed was. you just didn’t like it and focused on the last 5% of what I typed and completely ignored the rest.
incredible
Plug in hybrid is the smartest solution, but they are difficult to get ahold of and more expensive. I ended up getting a 23 toyota corolla hybrid and have been loving it, 50mpg on the reg. Plus, for slower city driving, it's capable of just using battery power. Paid 27k total for it
What they did with the Ford Maverick Hybrid was pretty awesome in terms of gas mileage out of a truck or "truck" for those inclined to diss it.
I hear they are applying the same tech to the 2024 Ranger. Maybe one day I can get my hands on one. Still paying off my used car note and unsure of my next direction 1-2 years from now. Car payments are getting way to high nowadays. Might be smartest for me to go back to beaters.
I have a 2018 Chevy Volt and I live in SW Michigan so our grid sourcing is natural gas, coal, and nuclear.
The Volt gets about 50 miles of electric only range before switching to a gas engine that allows you to continue to drive just a like a regular ICE car or truck.
Obviously my electric bill went but I'm still coming out much further head than if I was paying for gas for my 45 mile round trip commute.
Last May I put solar panels on my house and that has helped a ton to offset the extra cost of electricity. There is a 30% federal tax credit available for solar panels as well so I just got a big check back from the feds when I filed my taxes this year.
The new Prius Prime is a very intriguing option if you don't want an all electric car. roughly 40 miles of EV range and then 50+ MPG after that. Lots of exciting options in the coming years as well.
I’ve been waiting around on Toyotas alleged Tacoma hybrid before trading in our grand Cherokee. We’re in Brooklyn now so driving isn’t a big factor for us (I live a 1-3 blocks from 3 subways, reside In Williamsburg a very walkable area, and ride my bike if I’m in the city). Unfortunately the SO and I are from Chicago and ALL of our family lives there so we do the 12 hours through the night with 2 huskies a few times a year. We’ve waited and waited for this Tacoma hybrid for a while, we need the utility because we’re on our own with moving and we’re avid XC skiers. Idk if the Tacoma hybrid isn’t all that we’ll probably just try and track down a Subaru Outback or something along those lines.
Well, an interesting thread, since we are car shopping in the Ann Arbor area at the moment. Have looked at various hybrids, including the Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4. We were very put off by the Toyota salesman adding $5000 to the MSRP of the RAV4 hybrid price, due to "market pricing," another synonym for corporate greed (we were not notified of this mark-up until quote time). The web site indicated the MSRP and selling price were identical. Oops, not so much.
Since we only drive around 6-7000 miles per year (both retired), that sort of premium makes no economic sense for us. There are various gas models of other brands that come close to the RAV4 hybrid highway mileage. We also realize that automobile transportation is just part of one's carbon footprint. We do not fly; our vacations, once a year these days, are to the U.P. I didn't do any recreational travel for a decade, but the lure of my native U.P. trout streams got me out of that eventually. Our diet is largely vegetarian, which is probably the best thing one can do for the environment. We have opted out of the American desire to consume, consume, consume. Not virtue signaling, just the way we are. Our current main vehicle is a 2004 Saab, purchased used off lease in 2008. My garden car is a 1999 Audi Quattro station wagon hand-me-down from my son-in-law. So we're walking the walk of low consumption.
I am particularly amused by California's ban on gas vehicle sales by 2035. IIRC, many of the fires that have plagued the state were due to the dilapidated state of its electric grid. More fantasy thinking, as is the mineral resource base necessary to transition to all EV. But then fantasy thinking seems to be quite the rage these days, so I'm not surprised. (Dan Villari would have definitely whooped OSU's ass in 2020 in a breakout performance.)
Since I work for Toyota I feel compelled to make sure everyone knows that Toyota does not support dealers charging a premium over MSRP just because the market demand is what it is. But the dealers are not owned by Toyota, they are independent businesses, and they have a lot of autonomy. Of course, they also have to live with the decisions they make in their respective markets. So to the extent there is greed, it is specific to the dealer and not the company that designs and builds the vehicles. It is always unfortunate when the dealer experience is negative because it does reflect poorly on the OEM, since the customer’s experience with the OEM is through the dealer. I wish you luck with your vehicle decision. There are lots of great cars and trucks out there, and more powertrain options than ever before, which is a good thing.
Your hybrid is already getting really good fuel economy, so moving to an EV to a degree is throwing good money after bad, if it would be still be using electricity that's generating carbon at the source by a considerable proportion. Let's say you're current hybrid (I'm assuming it's not the plug-in variety) is getting 100% better fuel economy than gas-powered car (meaning it gets double the MPG, or half as much gas per mile ... so a 50% reduction in carbon footprint). That's great! Now you move to an EV, and voila! No more gas consumption, but ... now the electricity is let's say, 25% carbon sourced, so now your new EV car's footprint is 50% of the hybrid, or 25% of the old gas guzzler. So, moving to a home energy supplier plan that combines all non-fossil fuel sources (which had better include nuclear, goddammit, because that's the only way to generate to power the world needs) may reduce your total carbon footprint more than just getting an EV and continuing to let your house consume whatever percentage of coal-sourced power it consumes. Of course, this assumes you have electric heat, which I doubt...
For all the nuclear fans, while it may be part of the solution, the price has to come down. There are lots of fascinating alternatives. First, improvements in energy storage are going to continue to make renewables look quite attractive. There are multiple non-lithium based 100 hour storage technologies potentially on the brink of commercialization, from flow batteries, to thermal storage. There are also shorter duration non lithium based solutions like compressed air storage. There are also solar technologies like solar windows and solar that can be used in agriculture applications where it uses wavelengths of light not needed for growing plants and lets the rest through. There are virtual power plants that can integrate all these decentralized resources and supply the grid. There are technologies that can combust natural gas, capture 97% of their carbon emissions. It will be fascinating to see how we get our power in 10 years. While there will still be legacy nuclear plants, hydropower, wind and solar and natural gas, there will almost certainly be other technologies not widely used today, playing a big part in a cleaner and potentially more reliable electricity system.
Got my wife a Kia Niro hybrid (not plug in) a couple years ago. If we're careful we can keep the MPG above 50 driving around town. Cruising at 55 through the Appalachians we averaged 65 MPG going up and down the hills (recharging the batteries coasting downhill). Doesn't do as well going 75 down the freeway but still over 40.
We have really liked it!
Nuclear energy is literally the cleanest source on Earth. LOL As for a new ride, get a hybrid. When you measure full carbon footprint, EVs are orders of magnitude worse than hybrids/CBEs.
I changed out a gas guzzler 2014 Camaro and ended up getting my model 3 back in September. From what I read, this was beneficial for me being in Columbus, and a salesman in the area. I can drive 150 miles and still have enough left to not worry for the next day. I charge at home as well. My energy bill went up approx. $100 a month from charging, compared to almost $100 A WEEK with a Camaro. So, switching to pure EV was beneficial on that aspect. Driving? Well, I love my 3 personally. Makes driving fun and incredibly safe. Unless something comes out that EVs are drastically damaging the Earth comparatively to a gas car,I am sticking to Tesla. Thoroughly enjoy. Downside, is that any muscle or sports car will try to race you, or rednecks with their 5 ft lift kits with metal balls hanging in the back, rev the engine and blinds you with exhaust smoke.
April 25th, 2023 at 11:12 PM ^
new PHEVs get you 40+ miles electric (good for most commutes). These are wonderful choices, imo.
Toyota is getting ready to drop a legit hydrogen fuel vehicle with viable refueling stations that can be added to existing fuel stations. If the cost is somewhat affordable for consumers, this will take over the ev market fast.