Talking cars T-day, hybrid or EV?
Usually someone posts about cars on Thursday, but Tuesday begins with T. Close enough.
Many automotive connections in these parts, so I suspect someone has done some actual real research.
I have a Ford Fusion hybrid that I drive mostly in the city, and I am coaxing 49mpg out of it (mostly due to minimal use of HVAC). To me, that seems a fairly responsible use of fossil fuels. But said car is getting long in the tooth, and I am pondering what to buy next. In Toledo, where coal/nuclear are our sources, what are my best choices environmentally? Obviously, EVs have no direct emissions, but I know the transmission and step-down in voltages by the time electricity gets to my garage throws away a bunch of energy.
Which is more environmentally responsible here in the Midwest?
I'm currently in the process of financing a horse.
He runs on oats, he fertilizes my neighbors yard. He goes neighhhhhhh
Horses are cool
Sounds like you have some good old-fashioned horse sense when it comes to transportation.
And you know what Dave Attell said about having a horse.
My gas Acura TSX getting 30mpg with 327k work miles is doing fine. I casually drive the truck on the weekends. Not too concerned about emissions since the elites fly around on their private jets to attend parties and go shopping.
I mean the elites don't have to care about the environment, because they can money their way out of any problems. It's the non-elites who are going to be stuck with the worst real estate in polluted areas and terrible drinking water.
Who are the elites?
I'm just going off the original comment, but from that I'm guessing anyone that owns a private jet.
Brian, Seth, the Mods, Ace use to be one, but no more.
/ducks
THEY are
April 25th, 2023 at 11:10 PM ^
this is a dumb comment, because there aren't many elites. What most of us does actually matters, no?
What we do matters. However, Between China and India 2 new coal plants per week are opening as well as new coal plants in parts of Asia and Africa. So, let’s understand we aren’t putting a dent into anything! Most with pre 1980’s emissions controls!
Hybrid is the way to go till battery longevity, recycling and mining materials are figured out for the environment and for consumers.
I really want a PHEV. Feel like if I can get one that's fuel efficient in regular hybrid mode, with the first ~30 miles being in EV mode, I'll only have to fill up every few weeks.
That being said, it feels like a transitional solution and sometimes I wonder if I should just wait until pure EVs have more range.
I adore my first-gen Chevy Volt, but with replacement batteries essentially unavailable, I fear I'm on borrowed time. I think this is going to be the drawback for most of the PHEVs, they're so much more expensive to build and warranty that they'll end up as a stepping stone for the big manufacturers as they transition from gas to EVs.
We'll see. Toyota, admittedly a hybrid leader and a company trailing the pack when it comes to BEVs is on the record that they think a total energy reduction by getting more people in hybrids and PHEVs is the way to go. The same amount of battery to power one BEV could power ~ 11 PHEVs per a Toyota study.
That's really interesting point!
Consider the source for sure - but it makes sense.
A Tesla Model Y uses a battery pack that's between 68-81kWh in size. The Rav4 Prime PHEV uses an 18.1kWh battery. Those are similar sized vehicles, and the Toyota is rated at 42 miles electric.
That's not 11x capacity... but it's about 4x
The Rav4 Hybrid (non plug-in) uses a 1.6kWh battery, and gets 42MPG overall.
I really thought that the Volt concept would be the logical next phase in mass personal transportation. Imagine a modern Volt on steroids, where the battery could get you 100+ miles, but the onboard fuel-supplied generator greatly eased range concerns while traveling long distances. It was, in my mind, the perfect combination to bridge the ICE and EV (or another alternative like hydrogen) eras.
I think the concept is sound, but the execution ended up being something with the comforts of a Chevy Cruze, and costing twice as much. Maybe as batteries get cheaper you could continue to make the generator smaller and get to a place where it's affordable.
I've looked in to those too. I worry about traveling to areas with few charging stations. I currently have a hybrid and like it.
No matter how dirty your local power grid is, an EV is going to have lower emissions than a gas car. The energy "thrown away" due to the grid is also going to be very minimal when compared to the efficiency of a ICE.
Generally EVs will outperform hybrids even when accounting for electricity mix at this point, as their efficiency has improved dramatically over the past decade, unlike when you likely bought your current vehicle. That said, here’s a tool where you can enter your zip code and some potential cars you’d consider to have a more informed decision about your local energy mix.
The other key point is that your new gas car will continue to burn gas and emit carbons at the same rate over the next five years that you own it.
With an EV, no matter what the calculation are today, the grid will become more green each year and that same grid transition can accelerate with funding if needed.
I drive a big HD gas truck that gets 10-15 MPG. Wouldn’t mind an EV to drive around town and use the truck for what I need the truck for but I’m not rich. Wife has a hybrid tho so we make up for it. Ha ha.
This is essentially our family's predicament. I love my diesel truck, but she's thirsty and only got so many miles before she gives up the ghost. Not the best commuter vehicle and I plan on keeping it and using it for long distance trips.
We want an EV for the frequent local driving but also want something that can tow our rv if needed. So, we put deposits down for the Rivian truck and suv. Originally it was just the suv for the wife (we're going to give her old car to our oldest son to use) but we loved the test drive so much that we put a deposit on the truck too.
Oddly enough, I just got the vin confirmed for the truck and may have it within a couple of weeks. Wife's still waiting (probably through the fall) for hers.
I am still coasting in my 2002 Cavalier. It has 266,000 miles and still gets 30 mpg. Like others mentioned above, I could care less about emissions since the political hypocrites and Hollywood elites are flying around in private jets that give off a lot more pollution than my car does.
You mean 1992 Cavalier, right?
How much less could you care?
Around 4-5 shits less.. roughly... give or take 1 or 2
I get the annoyance at "elites flying around in private jets" but I'm missing the logic of the rest of us continuing to drive gas guzzlers as a result. (I understand that there may a be variety of other reasons for sticking with a gas powered vehicle... just not THAT reason.)
It's an excellent example of thinking outside the box. If we all use gas guzzling cars, the elite will notice this from high above, and will eventually see the error of their ways. Once they renounce their private jets, then (and only then) we can curb our consumption.
I'm glad you posted this. I'm in the same process, but am not 100% sold (yet) on EV's or Plug-in Hybrids. I drive a gas SUV now but am looking to get a smaller car since I'm moving back to the city. I'm concerned about getting an all electric because of charging capacities -- always having to know where charging stations are. PHEV's seem a better bet. I can use all electric in the city for short trips around town and gas on longer trips if necessary. I've read, though, that the materials used in electric vehicles aren't great for the environment (admittedly have not done a lot of research on this) and that some feel it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other for whether you go electric or gas. They're both not great for the environment, each in their own way. I also want a car that's fun to drive. I haven't test driven an electric yet. The ones that I like aren't that easy to come by in Chicago (Kia, Hyundai, and Mini). Part of me thinks I should just get a small crossover like the Hyundai Kona that has decent gas mileage and call it a day. I'm also looking at the VW Taos for the additional storage space.
Trade in your Q5 for a Q5e. Thank me later :-)
We drove one, it's outstanding but was outside our price range.
I know it's probably a fantastic car but I don't want to spend more or get something "nice." Part of me wants to get another GTI since this may be its last hurrah. If only the eGolf had lasted.
I'm just waiting on a manual Golf R allocation at Jennings... there are 27 Rs in Chicago, all DCT.
This will probably be my last new manual transmission car I buy, so I'm going to get the one I want!
Will you have a garage or a dedicated parking spot with electrical outlet? If so you will be able to do the vast majority of your charging at home.
Yes, we will be able to charge in our garage. I'm intrigued by EV's, I think I'm just looking for the perfect combination of size, driving fun, and price. It's probably out there, I just have to start actively looking at them. Two are unavailable in Illinois, the Kia Niro and the Hyundai Kona, and those have been top of my list.
It's not released yet, but I just realized the perfect one for you.
Alfa Romeo Tonale
Plug in hybrid estimating 30 miles of electric, about the size of a Jeep Compass, so a little smaller than the Q5, 285HP and 0-60 in 6 seconds will match your GTI.
What color was your Spider?
It was black. I sure do miss that car. This one looks very nice, I'll have to check it out. There used to be an Alfa dealer around the corner from me.
We debated between the Niro and the Kona and went with the Kona. Love it. While a very big EV fan, I couldn’t imagine getting one if we couldn’t charge at home. Make sure you have factored in costs related to the charger. If you have to upgrade your electric panel, you could be in for unexpected extra costs.
Too bad you can't test drive near where you live--that makes it impossible unless you take a weekend road trip somewhere to do so, which means either buying on the spot or returning a second time to buy if/when you finalize your decision. That process sucks.
FWIW we love our 2022 Kia Niro. Don't know how much room you need but for us it drives bigger than it looks. Comfortably seats two in font and two in back and the rear hatch is perfect for grocery/errand runs around town. Installing our garage charger cost about $1K and did not require any (other) new electrical infrastructure.
Finally, although I support the government's attempt to encourage USA car makers to create more supply so we can all buy American made EVs as time goes by, right now there are very few such EVs available that qualify for the $7500 tax credit. We bought ours in the window where American made wasn't required so we got the credit--which took a somewhat overpriced $40K vehicle down to the low $30K range in terms of net purchase price.
I went from mini-van to Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. I like it a lot. I think a plug in might even be better but I don't have any experience with them and don't know anyone who has one.
I’ve got the plug in hybrid Rav-4 and I love it—extremely zippy in electric mode, which was a bit unexpected for me but makes sense in retrospect. We use it about 95% of the time all electric.
That's great to know!
When you're buying that environmentally friendly vehicle, keep in mind that the mining process to get the metals for the batteries for EVs is extremely environmentally destructive and that the batteries themselves are environmentally toxic while also being potentially prohibitively expensive to replace if you need to do that. Not trying to sway you one way or the other, but just giving you another data point to think about in your comparison.
There's no economy of scale yet for lithium battery recycling but eventually the cost to recycle the batteries will be cheaper than mining. It's nice to know that the technology to recycle them is there. The same can't be said for fossil fuels.
This is what I've read, too. Seems like there are pros and cons to all vehicles and you just have to decide which is most important to you based on how you use your vehicle.
I mean I guess this is all true, but it's really not close in comparing the environmental impact. Each EV has like 100 lbs of rare earth metals, gas cars go through thousands of gallons of gas in their lifetime. Batteries can be recycled, gas burns and cannot obviously. Precious metals are mined for ICE cars as well, things like catalytic converters.
Also mining damage is destructive in a very localized area, and can also be remediated. Climate change damage often has a very broad geographic impact (the whole world), and is very difficult to mitigate or reverse.
Most commodities humans consume will require some form of destroying natural resources. Doesn't make sense to single out EVs.
April 26th, 2023 at 12:12 AM ^
Have you seen what they do to extract oil from tar sands in Canada? And US oil production, which is becoming more and more reliant on fracking, produces millions of gallons of highly toxic wastewater every year. All of the arguments that you can make about lithium and cobalt mining being environmentally destructive can also be made about petroleum extraction, transport, refining.