The State of Our Program
I’ve been disgusted and horrified by Harbaugh and the Wolverines as much or more than the next guy, but it made me think about several things about the program.
First, this seems larger than just the coach.
UM has gone through Rich Rod who could not field a defense period, Hoke who by the end of his tenure looked lost, and Jim Harbaugh who has finally flamed out entirely.
The boosters/administration can often be controlling and there’s almost a defeatist mindset around the program. The UM job is tough and requires winning the fan base/boosters and the administration in addition to the players.
Clemson had similar issues and was so bad under Terry Bowden that the fan base feared to get optimistic about the team and had a defeatist attitude ie “Clemsoning”. Dabo at Clemson had to completely retool the culture and win over both players and the fan base and administration.
Second, some of the blue bloods jobs have so many politics going on behind the scenes. Is there something going on behind the scenes at UM? FSU had major booster meddling and administration conflict with the head coach before Jimbo Fisher ultimately left.
Can Michigan even find a guy to turn the program culture around and that would be able to handle the peripherals of the job?
November 28th, 2020 at 11:17 PM ^
Yes
lets wait till we are in year 10.
let’s pay him another $ 70 million and see.
no scratch that. Let’s pay him $700 million. Michigan man deserves to be paid well.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:50 PM ^
It’s possible the secondary looked better because they’ve played Rutgers and previously winless PSU. These guys don’t flash potential and give hope that they will put it altogether and be better next year. They look less talented than their opponents. Yes, they can improve and get better, but I don’t see very much that would leave me to believe they will be better next year.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:02 PM ^
They look less experienced, not necessarily less talented. And Rutgers beat MSU, so the fact that we looked better against Rutgers than MSU, does actually show improvement. As far as year over year improvement, just look at a team like Northwestern. They looked hapless and like a complete joke last season, this year they'll be playing for the B1G championship. A year can make a huge difference.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:51 PM ^
We have to stop with the excuses! Did you know that psu was missing roughly 10 players today including there all world tightend and linebacker! Do you know 2 true freshman ran all over us cause all there other running backs were out! Do you know there leading receiver against us was a true freshman! Do you know psu was 0-5 before today! Stop it!
November 28th, 2020 at 9:58 PM ^
The reason PSU is was 0-5 was because of turnovers. Their offense has shown it could move the ball and get yards all season. They cleaned up their turnovers today, and we lost the turnover battle. And their RB may have been a freshman, but their O-line wasn't. We were in this game right up until we couldn't get push on 4th and 1 with our mostly freshman O-line. The hysterics and lack of perspective of this board is truly entertaining.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:20 PM ^
Wow, what a shock, a defense (ours) that has sucked at generating turnovers relative to the rest of college football for years didn't force any today and in turn lost to an 0-5 team. And we're supposed to be happy about that because "we were in it until the 4th and 1 when we couldn't get a push"?
No sir, you are the one with zero perspective, I'm afraid.
November 29th, 2020 at 12:33 AM ^
Are you an OSU fan? What gives with the excuses? I loved Harbaugh until this season. Now I can't wait to wave goodbye. This team has some youth and some injuries but still has enough talent to beat the likes of MSU and an awful PSU team that has MASH ward full of legit injuries.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:59 PM ^
"We'll be better in a few years" is unacceptable. I recall hearing that for the past decade or so.
We're going to have injuries to key players next year and beyond. And if the past is any indicator, we're going to have kids transferring out of here. Two years from now, do you think both Milton and McNamara will be here?
Other programs deal with the same issues and they still manage to win.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:16 PM ^
This is spot on. Spot. On. And because of it, in a year or two, this team is going to be awesome. Which is exactly why the administration will let this run its course and not make any changes after this year. Seriously, no one should lose their job in college football this year, of all years.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:46 PM ^
Ah yes, the oldest adage in sports and the official rallying cry of Michigan Football: Just wait 'til next year!
Give me a break.
November 29th, 2020 at 12:26 AM ^
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November 28th, 2020 at 10:55 PM ^
Wouldn’t you say Harbaugh is the main reason for this? He runs kids out of town, they leave on their own, coaching turnover, etc.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:46 PM ^
You seem to not be aware of whose job it was to not have holes all over the roster.
Think about that.
November 29th, 2020 at 9:29 AM ^
Everything you say is true. It is why this team looks bad. If this were the bad year after being competitive, winning an OSU game, appearing and even winning a BIG championship game then perhaps the fans, myself included, could live with it. However, none of the above except being exceptionally awful has occurred.
When fans were unhappy with the lack of even being competitive against OSU others noted well at least the team isn't cratering like Hoke or RichRod. Well now the team is cratering like those two. Even if the team gets better play from the experienced players, does anyone here think that Harbaugh will have an offensive philosophy that will work? Does anyone think that if Don Brown gets his dudes firing they won't be obliterated by slant after slant after slant as was done in the past? If any of you do, then I wish you would post why you think that. If you don't, then how can you think it's going to get better in 2021 or 2022?
However, count me among the folks that don't think Michigan will do what is "necessary" to be elite. I don't think Michigan will pay a mid-level OL $180,000 to play for the team. I think that until those areas are cleaned up that having a good Iowa or Wisconsin program is what we can expect. I can live with that. I don't want Michigan to be one of the "elite" programs if being like LSU or OSU is what is required.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:17 PM ^
We're probably better off with this:
November 28th, 2020 at 9:47 PM ^
PLEASE SWEET JESUS LIONS TO TAKE HARBAUGH !!!
November 28th, 2020 at 9:18 PM ^
First: While RichRod was not a great fit, and needed to go, he always said it would take him 4 years to implement his system at Michigan. And, the team went 11-2 in Brady Hoke's first year - with RichRods players and offense.
Second: Brady Hoke is a middling coach who should've never been hired at Michigan. Dave Brandon wanted a good soldier who would let him be the star and let him have input. Brady Hoke's best wins before coming to Michigan were a couple of wins against Air Force. Look it up. HIs Ball State team beat an incredibly weak schedule.
As far as the boosters/politics/etc. winning cures all. Whomever the next coach is, they need to understand that going to Alumni functions, chatting up Al Glick, Shaking the Regents hands, that's part of the gig. That's one major thing RichRod got wrong. People have a lot harder time being mean to you if you're always nice to them.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:59 PM ^
While RichRod was not a great fit, and needed to go, he always said it would take him 4 years to implement his system at Michigan
I don't recall him saying that. He asked for fans to have some patience at the outset, but he never threw out a specific number of years.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:02 PM ^
That's one major thing RichRod got wrong. People have a lot harder time being mean to you if you're always nice to them.
Are we still pretending that a guy who was fired by Arizona for sexual harassment is a good ol' boy who was just misunderstood?
November 29th, 2020 at 12:06 AM ^
MGO tradition - every three years we must re live the RR years and discuss whether or not he would have won big if Casteel was given a modest pay increase to come here.
November 29th, 2020 at 12:02 AM ^
And, the team went 11-2 in Brady Hoke's first year - with RichRods players and offense.
Okay. But not with Rich Rod's defense, which would've been the same cheap piece of wet tissue paper it was in year 4 as it was in year 3 had he stayed.
November 29th, 2020 at 1:57 AM ^
OK. Look. I'm not trying to rewrite history. I'm not a RichRod apologist. I'm not saying he's a good guy. I'm not saying he's even a good HC. RichRod was brought here to do 1 thing: Bring Michigan's offense out of the dark ages. And, albeit for a short time, he did that. Did he make a million unforgivable mistakes? YES. But, the Hoke/Borges braintrust took a Ferrari and dumped Diesel fuel in it. Hoke's teams got worse every year.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:21 PM ^
Harbaugh is definitely most to blame for this debacle. We talk a lot about roster attrition (there's no meritocracy anymore but rather coach favorites it appears) but I think we should also be talking about coaching attrition. We've lost so many of our seemingly talented coaches/recruiters (Fisch, Wheatley, Bush Sr. Washington, Mattison, etc.) and although other programs experience this too, something just seems "off" at UM. I don't know if anyone has insider information but I refuse to believe they all left "smoothly", if you will.
As for the administration, there's too many old geezers that hold too much power. Just look at today for example, the MGoBlog members with insider information say that some wheels are churning with regards to moving on from Harbaugh, but there are significant people within the program that refuse to acknowledge he's an issue. As a younger alum, I may be bullish in saying this but I really wish this old "Michigan way" ideology explodes into flames. Nobody cares about what this program was 30 years ago, but for whatever reason people within Schembechler Hall can't put aside their nostalgia for the benefit of the program. Just because Harbaugh played here under good ol' Bo, doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism. His tenure has been a failure. It's over.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:21 PM ^
This is ridiculous. Nothing was preventing Harbaugh from producing a quality team. The boosters and administration aren’t in on his team meetings and don’t run practices. If he’d done a better job recruiting, managing his roster and adapting, the team would have won more. Stop looking for answers beside the obvious one. He had every opportunity. He just failed.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:24 PM ^
I think the culture is broken and it started in 2019, went we went to the “spread” and the 3 man DLine.
To “modernize” the offense, meant going away from the principles the staff knows how to teach/recruit/and dominate with. The team has lost their edge of coming out and dominating someone. I didn’t love 24/7 manball in 2015-2018, but it worked for Michigan. Those team played with an edge even in losses. It works for Wisconsin still.
The 3 man D-line doesn’t create penetration. Our Best defenses 2016/2018 played 4 down line. Came off the edges, didn’t try and twist and stunt 24/7. This defense is constantly out of position bc they’re moving way to much.
if we do move on, I hope it’s Haffley.. he’s got the principles in his style, that is on par with how we play our best.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:57 PM ^
Uh we don't play much 3 down linemen on defense. I would venture a guess that roughly 90% of the snaps on defense today saw us line up with 4 down linemen.
Also, we have to adapt or die. "Modernizing the offense" is a pretty silly way to frame the fact that we must FINALLY catch up with the rest of the college football world on what is now the most effective way to score points. You might not like it, but spread offense, RPO's, and pass-first offense is here to stay. Even Wisconsin is starting to buck their trend and go more pass heavy (see their games against Illinois and NW this year).
And one more thing; I saw us run one or two stunts today, and a stunt accounted for our only sack. This defense is constantly out of position and missing plays because they are poorly coached, undisciplined, and at some key positions lack the talent/depth to keep up.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:57 PM ^
double post ugh
November 28th, 2020 at 9:25 PM ^
We will never be as good as Ohio State if Day keeps the Meyer machine going. We’d be lucky to win 1 against them every 4 years at this point. We need to lower our expectations as a fan base until OSU shows some kinks in the armor. 10-3, 9-4, 8-5 is about as good as it will get in the current state. We were lucky that Lloyd Carr owned John Cooper, otherwise this futility could have stretched from the 90’s until now. Like it or not, the OSU rivalry defines this program and until we’re on equal footing, our boosters and fan base will drive every coach out even if they finish every regular season 11-1 if the one loss is to OSU. Except this year, Harbaugh has been a top 10-15 coach. Lloyd Carr was driven out based on his performance against Tressel but was still a top 10-15 coach. We’re a spoiled, entitled, jealous fanbase.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:42 PM ^
Gonna push back on spoiled fan base. We’ve been nationally irrelevant for the past 15 years. Also if you’re dropping 8 million on a coach expectations should be sky high. The fact he’s never beaten OSU, this year will be a bloodbath that makes 2018/2019 look like good games in comparison.
let’s review the Jim Harbaugh era: Never been to Indy. Gone 1-4 in bowls. 3-3 PSU, 2-3 vs Wisconsin, 3-3 MSU. 0-5 vs OSU...Gross.
if we were entitled he’s fired immediately after going into Columbus as a favorite and being run off the fucking field. Or 2019 when he also was run off the field.
Jealous fan base? Absolutely. We watch other coaches field quality competent teams. Why wouldn’t we be jealous? Jim fields a dumpster fire.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:49 PM ^
Please stop acting like UM fans are any different than any fans at other big time program. This is not on the fans. All Harbaugh had to do was win more. Same with Lloyd. But they both decided to play conservative Michigan Man football instead of trying to modernize and do what's best for the program.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:00 PM ^
Ehh. Expecting regular victories, especially at home, to bottom barrel B1G teams (MSU/PSU) has nothing to do with the fan base, jealousy, or entitlement.
M will never be what OSU is and never really has. OSU has been a “better program” for most of the last 50 years. We just had good coaches that could beat them occasionally and win a conference title here and there.
while it would be nice to “be as good as OSU,” that’s not the main goal. The goal is to field competitive teams, beat OSU a few times a decade, and win a few conference titles before we die ...
November 28th, 2020 at 10:03 PM ^
Not 50 years. 20 years. We were their equal as a program for basically the whole time from 1969-2000.
November 28th, 2020 at 10:09 PM ^
Lloyd was driven out due to his performance against Tressel? Really? Perhaps I'm too young to remember, but from what I can recall Lloyd was actively trying to retire and stop coaching around the 2006-2008 timeframe. Also, he did not "get owned" by Tressel in the same way that we have (especially Harbaugh) been owned by the combined Meyer and Day machine. The largest margin of victory for OSU over a Lloyd Carr coached Michigan team was 16 points in 2004. And, Carr nearly took the team to a NC game after one of the greatest football games ever played in Columbus in 2006. This rivalry stopped being close after Lloyd left, not during his tenure.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:02 PM ^
What was Lloyd’s record against Tressel? He won one single game against Tressel! Hence the joke “What kind of car does Jim Tressel own?” Answer: A Lloyd Carr.
Lloyd’s teams didn’t get embarrassed against OSU but he was owned in the W-L category his final seven years which is ultimately what matters.
1-6 vs Tressel!
November 29th, 2020 at 12:07 AM ^
Where in my post did I deny Lloyd’s abysmal record vs. Tressel? I didn’t. I simply argued against your premise that his leaving the program was because he was “getting owned” by Tressel. His Michigan teams were always competitive vs. OSU even through his final season. I’m fairly certain it was well known that Lloyd wanted to step away from football around 2007. He was not driven out due to his performance against Tressel, that’s historical revisionism. Case in point, the 2006 Michigan team that only lost to OSU by 3 points and perhaps should have been given the rematch chance in the BCS championship.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:06 PM ^
We see this type of doom and gloom post a lot. Lower your expectations. Never again able to compete with OSU. Just accept 9-3, with a 10-2 season here an there, as the ceiling. Blah, blah, blah...
This is wrong. Always has been wrong.
It is all just a matter of getting the right HC and staff in place.
All of the ingredients are present at Michigan to be a top 5 program, except one--the right HC and staff.
The hard part is hiring that special HC to bring the program to the top. We all thought Harbaugh was that guy. It is clear now that he is not.
Bama wandered in the woods for a long time before hiring Saban, who was fresh off not looking very good in the NFL.
USC hired Pete Carroll--not even coaching anywhere at the time--after getting turned down by other candidates higher on their list. The press thought USC had made a sideways move, at best.
OSU hired Tressel from a D2 school and the reaction was...not enthusiastic. But he put their program into overdrive fast, winning a NC and starting OSU's long domination of the Big Ten.
Florida hired Urban Meyer from Utah (then a MW conference school), and he brought them to a higher level than they had ever seen.
And Michigan also has done it before, too. After a long period of under-performance (almost two full decades), Bo was hired. Michigan won more games in the next decade than any other school.
None of the above hires looked like sure things when they were hired. The right guy is out there. Identifying him is the hard part.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:26 PM ^
“disgusted and horrified by Harbaugh and the Wolverines”? Did they murder somebody or something? Geez, there not good at football but maybe some perspective.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:57 PM ^
The guy gets paid $10mil a year. That’s both disgusting and horrific
November 28th, 2020 at 9:28 PM ^
Michigan Football = Fucking Pathetic
Edit - don't ever do this but the defense was soft and the players tackled like girls.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:40 PM ^
On defense Michigan looks like a MAC team at best. Fucking not B1G level
November 28th, 2020 at 9:44 PM ^
Mongo just pawn in game of life.
November 28th, 2020 at 9:40 PM ^
For me, it's not all about wins and losses (I mean, obviously winning is better, but...). I want a team that is competitive, exciting, and can evolve with the game. So many Michigan games feel predictable. As a Bears fan as well, I feel stuck in football purgatory with teams who insist on playing 1960s style run, run, run (please get a first down), punt, then let our nasty defense lay the wood.
I just want to see a keeping up with the times. And that does not seem to be what Harbaugh has in mind.
For what it's worth, in terms of wins/losses...since Bo started in 1969, seasons with 4 plus losses (I picked the bluebloods that many of us might look to for comparisons):
Michigan - 20 (Bo only had 4) including this year
OSU - 13 (and only 3 since 2000)
Bama - 15
Clemson - 30 (turnarounds are possible!)
Georgia - 24
USC - 26
ND - 22
Oklahoma - 16 (only 3 since 2000 as well)
FSU - 23
November 28th, 2020 at 10:54 PM ^
Clemson is not a traditional powerhouse.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:08 PM ^
Agreed...is Michigan? (in the somewhat current sense)
November 28th, 2020 at 11:27 PM ^
Yes, Michigan is a traditional powerhouse.
Same with USC and Texas, which also have been under-performing potential for a while now...
November 28th, 2020 at 11:23 PM ^
This is useful context.
Worth noting... From that list, Michigan, FSU, Texas, and ND have all experienced very bad stretches.
For MIchigan its was the RRod-Hoke period. For ND it was the long period post-Holtz and before Kelly. Texas and FSU are currently in their nadir.
Bama and USC have experienced lesser extended 'swoon periods' too.
Just three of those schools--OSU, USC, and Bama--have made what turned out to be absolute grand slam coaching hires--Saban, Carrol, Tressel, and Meyer.
Only Meyer was seen as a possible grand slam hire when it happened.
November 28th, 2020 at 11:32 PM ^
And...add in the fact that what seems/feels like the norm at OSU right now (12 plus wins, which they have done 9 of the last 15 years) has happened at Michigan twice EVER.
November 29th, 2020 at 12:05 AM ^
The basic point is correct...OSU is on an amazing tear. Could be one of the better 15-year runs in the history of CFB.
But...not really accurate to call out Michigan for only two 12 win seasons.
Schools played much shorter schedules until recent decades.
And Michigan has under-performed (slightly or greatly) from the early 2000s-present, which is most of the period when schools played longer schedules.
Entire Bo era was no more than 11 regular-season games. CFB went to 12 game regular seasons in 1995. Later conf CC games and CFB playoff added more games...
But the basic point is sound. OSU is racking up many 12 win seasons...
November 28th, 2020 at 9:50 PM ^
Dave Brandon was an egomaniac who literally thought he could coach the team through Brady Hoke. I think you can blame him solely for that debacle.
November 29th, 2020 at 12:13 AM ^
My fuego hot take is Hoke should be brought back as the DL coach