Schoonmaker retweet on team culture--will bring a smile to your face
I don't think every tweet by one of our athletes is thread-worthy, but in light of the unpleasantness yesterday surrounding the Erick All situation, I thought people would appreciate this one.
My biggest concern yesterday was the possibility that there were some cracks in the unity of the team (the team, the team). And there might be. But damn if this video and retweet didn't make me feel much better about things this morning.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:02 PM ^
Do you have actual evidence of his pouting because all I saw was a guy with a leg injury on the sidelines and generally supporting his team throughout the year. Also, and I know this is going to be a shock to people, but there were a healthy number of rumors that had McCarthy not won the starting spot this year he likely would have transferred as well. So shockingly competitive guys don't like to lose, especially when they are otherwise pretty good players and may not like being booed at home by ungrateful fans.
Anyway, there's a part of this fanbase that is so happy to see them finally winning that anyone who doesn't respond in the exact way they want or doesn't show fealty to the good times is treated as a villain in my eyes. YMMV on that front but making up actions by him to justify it isn't persuasive.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:58 AM ^
Twitter is really the bottom of the barrel reading some of peoples comments on there. It's like reading Youtube comments. People are equating multiple tunnel incidents and Mazi Smith playing to a culture problem. The rumor is the All family was not happy with the way the medical staff handled his injury. He went to Florida against their advice and had spinal surgery. Maybe there's something to that? Somebody told Corum he could play then the next thing you know hes having surgery. They told St.Juste to medically retire then he goes on to Minnesota and is having a good career in the NFL.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^
multiple tunnel incidents
Trash talk is not an "incident."
As for our medical staff, no one bats 1.000 on this stuff. We apparently saw something in St-Juste's results that gave us concern of long-term risk and it didn't come to pass - at least not yet - which is great for him, but doesn't necessarily mean our diagnosis was wrong, given the information we had. I think I'd rather us be cautious than not, in general. These guys have (hopefully) long lives ahead of them.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:29 PM ^
Trash talk is not an incident, but when perfectly good peanut butter & jelly sandwiches start getting thrown around, that is getting serious
December 6th, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
Certainly glad St Juste is doing well. Just because nothing happened to him (thankfully) doesn't mean that he wasn't/isn't at higher risk and maybe near/past a point where he shouldn't be playing.
Some people survive amazingly long falls. That doesn't make it safe.
December 6th, 2022 at 3:00 PM ^
And it’s weird that St. Juste is being used to say this is a culture problem because Harbaugh thinks hurt players are weak or whatever.
How does that jive with the medical staff making cautious, perhaps too cautious, calls about when a guy can return to play?
December 6th, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
I don't know the exact Corum situation, but it's common for players to delay surgery because they are told they won't do further damage to their injury by playing and it's just an issue of pain tolerance. I assume that was the case here.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:32 PM ^
They haven’t said explicitly, but it sounds like it was a meniscus injury and “you can try to rehab it and you’ll be fine if you can manage the pain, or you can get surgery and be down for 6 weeks” is definitely the sort of prognosis you might expect from that.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
It seems like the area of drama surrounds guys who are injured and unable to play for extended periods of time.
That said, it does seem like most of the players like Harbaugh. I just wish there wasn't smoke around various guys who have transferred after getting hurt (and sometimes being offered a medical exception), and having success elsewhere.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:51 AM ^
Just imagine the other way around. Someone with a condition plays and ruins his life. There is no good answer and nobody can predict the future. If UM Doctor's are not comfortable, them it is better to be safe than sorry. Sad for players and hope they make the right choice. Hope it pans out for them for their sake for their families sake. Tough situation.
December 6th, 2022 at 1:06 PM ^
Not just players - recall that Josh Gattis had some interesting comments when he left in January. And we know that Harbaugh had a crash-landing finish to his time in San Francisco, despite the success there.
It's not surprising that there are cliques and discontents within the football team: it's an organization of hundreds of players, coaches, support and medical staff. And I'm sure it is especially difficult to keep everyone working together happily in the high-stakes, super competitive environment. That doesn't mean there's a problem overall, and results so far this year indicate things are generally going great.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:43 PM ^
Bell, NHG, Edwards, Morris, even Cade (who is leaving but for totally understandable depth chart reasons) all seem to be guys happily going through treatment until ready to play.
December 6th, 2022 at 8:16 PM ^
yeah EastCoast Esq.
what you said is a spitball that sticks.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
JJ’s response is interesting as well
December 6th, 2022 at 11:50 AM ^
Shot at Cade?
Probably not.
But maybe?
December 6th, 2022 at 11:54 AM ^
I think at Erick. Because Erick was a TE who was voted captain and Schoon is a TE who was not.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:56 AM ^
Shot at All. All is/was a captain.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
Captains this year are Cade, All, Sainristil, Mazi, and Ronnie Bell. Two of the captains quit the team. Guys only have three left.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:14 PM ^
Sainristil is a captain. JJ is referring to Sainristil who was in the video Schoon posted.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:51 PM ^
Yeah I thought this was immediately obvious. Sainristil is a captain and he’s bringing the vibes to the moment like you want a captain to.
Ouldsod, you and I couldn’t both be wrong.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
Note too that JJ McCarthy replied "that's my captain" and a few people are retweeting them such as Sherrone Moore, Will Johnson, and Sam Webb
December 6th, 2022 at 12:04 PM ^
Erick played himself. He's a good kid, I'm sure he has a VERY valid reason to feel the way he does. I don't discredit it one bit, people view situations through lens and experience. But it's clear this team is together and they're not letting a cryptic tweet come between them.
Erick, unfortunately put himself outside the "brotherhood" when there was no need. These guys would've understood. They would've supported him full stop. Now the star QB is subtweeting him.
It's kind of sad, because this is family for these guys.
I have nothing to prove this is what All did, but it feels like when you make a decision and you have to justify it in your brain by talking bad about the other option OR by suggesting the option you chose was the moral option OR both.
We've all been there. Hell, fans do it all the time with recruiting.
Looking from the outside it seems that is all this is. But I HATE you "fans" that are killing him for it, like I said, it's you all who are the first to either talk about how you have a better option when we lose a recruit or how morally we weren't going to battle some team by cheating.
But Erick does it and everyone wants to be the Defender of the Block M. Stop that.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:46 AM ^
Good for you Luke. Harbaugh is a genuine guy. Unfortunate that All is leaving but I am sure the team will be fine and play their hearts out.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
I guess you could say the team is All good.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:54 AM ^
Re the potential for us having a "culture problem". I had some time on my hands last night and this morning so I read all the comments in the Erick All thread and then did more internet snooping so I'm reasonably sure this is/was the situation with Erick.
1. UM doctors did not want him to have back surgery right away and suggested physical therapy first which team All (hi dad) didnt agree with. FWIW PT in advance of surgery is pretty common and especially when considering possible back surgery.
2. All went to out of network back surgery clinic in Florida to have work done (I work in the medical field and this decision is borderline insane BTW)
3. Rehabbed at Airbnb away from team doctors
4. Because the surgery was performed out of network and the rehab was conducted away from the team facilities the team doctors wouldnt clear him to return to team. All allegedly went to Harbaugh for assistance but he was either unwilling or more likely, unable to overrule their decision (this one I'm probably the least sure of but it does make sense)
5. When informed he wasnt being cleared to return Team All got big mad at Harbaugh and team doctors which led to yesterday's announcement and series of cryptic tweets from Team All
First rule when considering back surgery is "have you exhausted all other possible remedies prior to having it done" and even then you go very slowly with the best surgeons available. Rushing into back surgery at a Florida strip mall when you have access to the Michigan medical team is the craziest thing I've ever heard of and I definitely hope he turns out ok.
So IMO humble opinion no culture problem OP with the program.
December 6th, 2022 at 11:56 AM ^
Wow. Nice sleuthing...
December 6th, 2022 at 12:03 PM ^
Yeah… always have to take things on the internet from kind of random sources with a big grain of salt, but this is the story that is out there, and would make sense. I was curious if this would make its way here since this board isn’t the friendliest to “rumors” even if they have some legs.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^
Very bizarre, if true. If things ended like that, it's unfortunate. But, it is what it is. Hope that in the end his back is fine and he continues to be successful.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:11 PM ^
Thanks for putting together the pieces.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:14 PM ^
If they do a The Maltese Falcon reboot, I know who's gonna play Sam Spade.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
Source on the exact location where he got surgery. You act like good surgeons couldn’t be in Florida. I agree that going across the country probably against what the UM doctors advised was a bad choice.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:48 PM ^
That article has:
That’s when Erick All and the University of Michigan sought the expertise of the BioSpine Institute
(Emphasis mine) That suggests the pursuit of outside medical counsel was jointly conducted. Now it's possible that's true: U-M did recommend an initial consultation, and then disagreed on the recommended course of treatment.
December 6th, 2022 at 1:14 PM ^
It's also possible this is an embellishment or flat out lie.
December 6th, 2022 at 5:51 PM ^
But BioSpine's surgeons are "fellowship trained"!
(If you have to put that on your website, well...)
December 6th, 2022 at 12:38 PM ^
Same discussions suggest it's a place called Biospine Institute
December 6th, 2022 at 12:44 PM ^
The surgery was performed at the BioSpine Institute in central Florida. The BioSpine institute is a chain of surgery centers in central Ohio where outpatient back surgeries are performed by one of four very lightly credentialed surgeons. BioSpine now uses the All surgery in the marketing campaigns and features his procedure front and center on their website (click on link above and you'll see)
This is not implying his surgery went wrong or there were any complications - I have no knowledge of that - but if you compare the facilities, the support team and the overall educational and clinical background of the spine surgeons at U of M vs the four at BioSpine I think you'll find there is no comparison at all. If what I think happened, happened, Team All took an unnecessary and reckless chance with Erick's present and future health and did so against the advice of the University.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
That link to the BioSpine Institute has text that suggests the University of Michigan was involved in the seeking of medical advice from BioSpine. Whether that's strictly true, somewhat true, or not true, I don't know.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:52 PM ^
Which is more likely: The University of Michigan has decided that a small chain of outpatient back surgery centers in Florida is the first-step option for a consult on a difficult case with a star athlete.
Or option B, said surgery center which is now using the surgery as a marketing tool embellished/made up/got lied to by All and decided it was too good to follow up.
I mean we have no evidence either way at this time, but our priors should not be that these things are equally likely.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
MGrowOld,
as I commented in other threads, my wife is a neurologist and came to very similar medical conclusions as you when she looked up Biospine last night.
She shares your concern about very high risk for All in this approach with very little evidence to suggest it could work any better than rest and rehab.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:57 PM ^
BioSpine now uses the All surgery in the marketing campaigns and features his procedure front and center on their website (click on link above and you'll see)
That sounds shady as fuck, sounds like they were desperate to land a high profile client. You gotta wonder what they promised him to make a guy risk his NFL paycheck on such an outfit.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:34 PM ^
Makes sense. Thanks for sharing your insight.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
The only thing I would get from a strip mall in Florida is a back massage.
- Robert Kraft
December 6th, 2022 at 12:37 PM ^
"All allegedly went to Harbaugh for assistance but he was either unwilling or more likely, unable to overrule their decision (this one I'm probably the least sure of but it does make sense)"
It would be grossly irresponsible for Harbaugh to unilaterally ignore the advice of the medical professionals that advise his football program.
If he did ignore their advice and cleared All to play only to see All sustain another serious back injury, Harbaugh would be open to serious legal jeopardy, and probably by extension the athletic department as well.
If your envisioned scenario reflects what actually happened, Harbaugh did the right and the smart thing. It sucks for All, but he's hardly the first football player whose promising career was cut short by injury. It's a brutal collision sport.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:57 PM ^
The only open question is did Harbaugh make it clear to All what the repercussions would be should he decide to go to elsewhere for the surgery. It sounds like Harbaugh may have told him it was fine but then was actually corrected/overruled by the higher ups. That's the only legitimate way All could have a beef with Harbaugh, for not double-checking the policy beforehand and in his eyes misleading him. If Harbaugh clearly laid out in no uncertain terms that if he went elsewhere for surgery he could not return to the team, well then All is just being pissy for no good reason.
December 6th, 2022 at 2:54 PM ^
I don’t think Harbaugh could have laid out in no uncertain terms that surgery meant All was off the team, unless the medical staff had already made that determination - and they may not have. And it sounds like All was definitely in a “hear what I want to hear” mode.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:37 PM ^
Great work and I concur with your take on back surgery. I'm sure most of us know of someone who's had back surgery and has never been right since. On the other hand, my 88-yr-old mother had surgery for spinal stenosis a couple of years ago after trying physical therapy and an injection. We got a great referral, the surgery went great and she's been pain free ever since.
If you happen to know of someone suffering from spinal stenosis, and non-surgical options haven't helped them, ask your doctor about Coflex Interlaminar Stabilization. Here's a testimonial from a middle aged patient, a general surgeon himself and a recreational hockey player.
Just thought I'd share because this surgery changed my mother's life. She was maxed out on pain meds, still suffering and now is pain free.
December 6th, 2022 at 12:40 PM ^
Yep, this is what I've gathered too. In fact, his dad replied to someone on Twitter yesterday saying "If he would've used their doctors maybe" in response to someone saying the UM doctors recommended a medical retirement. Sounds like dad guided him to this decision and now they are facing unexpected consequences.
If this is truly the case, then good on Harbaugh and the staff. What a foolish decision to not hash things out with medical professionals at UofM (of all places!) and just decide to get back surgery at a random FL clinic without team approval. I have no doubt that All wanted to get healthy and return to the team ASAP, but this was the wrong way to go about it and it clearly backfired. Harbaugh had to make the decision to follow protocol with his medical staff or play favoritism. Could you imagine if he turned a blind eye and a serious injury occurred afterwards? He had no choice.
All is a great player and I wish him luck and hope he stays healthy, but he and his family need to realize they forced this issue. Don't drag the program about culture issues when this is the story. In fact, maybe question why the new school's doctors are so willing to sign off.
December 6th, 2022 at 1:10 PM ^
Is there a new school yet? Because there's a chance he might find it hard to find a good school willing to sign off. (Although I have no doubt someone will)