Per Schlissel: UM will not have football this fall if students not on campus
WSJ article just out this morning has a discussion with UM president Mark Schlissel (pointing out that he is also a formally trained immunologist) - he believes a decision will be made in the next few weeks, but if students are not back on campus neither will football.
Of course you can stop a virus. The only way a virus survives long term is if it's within a host's body. If you prevent the virus from entering host bodies then it will die. If it's already made it into a host then it will either flourish and kill the host or the host will build antibodies and kill the virus. This is well understood and not up for debate.
The more we can do to prevent the virus from entering new host bodies, the better our chances of eliminating it. Wear a mask when in public and keep your distance from others. Wash your hands after touching foreign surfaces.
It isn't complicated.
Sociopath seems a bit extreme. Selfish inconsiderate asshole... that I can get behind. It takes two seconds and is a minor inconvenience, put your damn mask on.
The people who think wearing masks is oppressive are the same people who think schools should have metal detectors and armed security guards cuz “freedom.”
It’s a mental disease.
You lost full credibility with mental disease. Make an argument. Belittling someone tells more about your weakness than your point.
"do not think for one minute you are protected"
Idk how many times this needs to expressed to people, but masks are not to protect you. They're to protect others. Cloth masks prevent any droplets that you may outwardly be breathing, coughing, sneezing, etc. from getting into the air which makes it less likely that if you have covid it will spread to others. And if everyone acts like they're an asymptomatic carrier and tries to prevent getting others sick, then the virus spreads a lot less
Strictly speaking, the facial coverings work both ways - it protects both the user and the people around them. However, it is just one form of protection and is not a guarantee (think of it like medieval armor - a breastplate will help protect you in some ways, but not for everything).
Aerosolized water droplets are easier to filter/block than actual vapor molecules, which is why coverings such as simple cloth are mostly (not 100%) effective here while the farmer using chemicals requires much more stringent protection.
Part of why S Korea’s medical professionals didn’t have the covid impact as US’s. Their pts had masks on.
Face masks do not protect you. Face masks are for preventing people who may be asymptomatic from spreading the disease to others. That's why the very specific steps needed to make a respirator fit right do not apply to face masks. One is for preventing stuff from going in, the other for keeping stuff from going out
The fact that wearing a mask has somehow become political shows where we are as a society
That's on both sides. You have as many on one side preaching wearing ineffective cloth masks that don't work (Alissa Milano wearing a knit mask) and people like Trump who just pay lip service to it but won't wear one. Each one is irresponsible and they're both part of the problem.
If by "work" we mean reducing the amount of droplets containing the virus in circulation, any face covering will work to some degree. An n95 mask will work better than a piece of cloth but the cloth is still better than nothing. If you can get everyone on board with wearing some sort of face covering, that's a good public-health victory there.
Studies have shown you are much more likely to get the virus touching contaminated surface not through aerosols leaving your body. Though the mask will help keep your contaminated droplets off of surfaces but I think surface may be contaminated by touching alone.
Alissa Milano's mask was pretty bad, but it was still better than nothing. It's was a pretty shitty net to catch droplets, but a net nonetheless
Her mask has a carbon filter underneath. She wasn't wearing a simple crochet.
K-12 teachers in Michigan are already being prepped for virtual teaching in the fall. Some superintendent saying in-person instruction won’t happen until January. The CDC has laid out social distancing plans for schools to reopen in the fall which seem impossible to accommodate all students. Just like every other report that comes out, no one knows anything definitive.
Any social distancing plans schools lay out are going to fail on the first day because, I can say with a high degree of authority, kids don’t follow the fucking rules.
If they were able to go to remote teaching at the snap of a finger when the lockdowns started, I don't see the need to make a decision this early on whether the fall will be totally remote. As lockdowns are eased, the data that becomes available in the next 2 months should determine how schools decide to operate in September.
Wearing a mask is about as effective as putting a screen door on a submarine or using a chain link fence to stop mosquitoes.
Yep idiots thinking their rights are being stepped on. It’s to protect other people more then themselves. They would be put in jail if they shot someone maybe same thing should happen if they exposed someone to coronavirus and killed them
Or maybe people who are worried about it can go ahead and stay inside, and when they go out properly wear a real mask and gloves. This is a disease not magic. Some dude without a mask isn't going to infect if you you're taking appropriate measures.
Yes and no. If I go to the grocery store, the majority of people will keep their distance. Some (both those wearing and those not wearing) don't keep their distance. Some cough, some sneeze.
Yes the odds are relatively low that one cough from a passerby at 2 feet has enough viral load and velocity to get through my mask, but it is high enough for me to consider that person reckless. My wife is pregnant and I have a 4 year old kid, so whatever I get they get.
I argue that my and my family's right to life/health overrides another's right to the freedom to not wear a mask indoors in public during a pandemic.
Then get your food delivered. Problem solved.
Good to know that you'd rather say fuck you to at risk populations rather than have the slight inconvenience of wearing a mask in your life. Damn people are selfish
I’m saying “do your part” to at risk people. I’ll say “fuck you” to you though.
Lol telling at risk people to just stay inside is how they should "do their part" but you won't do your part to wear a mask? You sound ridiculous
This JPC, this. I don't wear a mask. I think about 50% of people do where I live.
The only thing masks seem to do is keep the mask wearers from understanding social distancing rules. Given your mask protects me and not you, I appreciate it, but I'll just keep my 6 feet distance and no mask, thank you.
Parent to pre-teen: Don't give in to peer pressure.
Internet, 2020: If you don't wear a mask, like everybody else, you're a selfish greedy sociopath who deserves nothing but ridicule and contempt!
I guess we've finally learned what happens to bullies when they grow up. They turn into SJWs.
It's not peer pressure, it's science. Is gravity peer pressure too? Or the earth being spherical?
You know what was "science" two months ago? Not wearing masks. "It's science" is not a free pass. If you saw someone with a mask on in March or early April, did you yell at them for denying science?
There was absolutely no science for not wearing a mask two months ago. That is not true. For anybody who was skeptical about the federal government guidelines at that time and actually looked, there were plenty of studies at that time that show masks protect you and others around you. By the way they do both.
Further, in Asian countries where they have more experience with SARS-like viruses and where the virus is mostly contained in many countries, all the governments told their citizens to wear masks. They had plentiful supplies of masks. And, people there have no problem wearing a mask. Wearing a mask in those countries is not a threat to their masculinity. Japan in particular has an extremely low infection rate right now. This is true even though Japan has installed limited control measures. On the other hand it’s a country where people have stock piles of masks and wear them regularly during flu season.
Now back to your original statement about science saying to not wear masks, that was not science but politicians at the federal government including sadly the current surgeon general (Probably to keep his job). And, since then, representatives of the federal gvt admitted that they lied because they were worried about the supply of masks for healthcare and Frontline workers.
Sorry, but this just isn't correct.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html
"There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit. In fact, there's some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly," Dr. Mike Ryan, executive director of the WHO health emergencies program, said at a media briefing in Geneva, Switzerland, on Monday.
And...
"In the community, we do not recommend the use of wearing masks unless you yourself are sick and as a measure to prevent onward spread from you if you are ill," Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, an infectious disease epidemiologist with the WHO, said.
And...
“The virus is not spreading in the general community,” Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the Center for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said in a Jan. 30 briefing. “We don’t routinely recommend the use of face masks by the public to prevent respiratory illness. And we certainly are not recommending that at this time for this new virus.”
And...
Though health officials have warned Americans to prepare for the spread of the novel coronavirus in the U.S., people shouldn’t wear face masks to prevent the spread of the infectious illness, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the U.S. surgeon general.
And...
Most people don’t know how to use face masks correctly, and a rush to buy masks could prevent the people who need them most — health care providers — from getting them, said Dr. Amesh Adalja, a scholar at the Center for Health Security at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
And...
Adalja applauded the CDC’s recommendation on face masks. “Even during H1N1 [flu epidemic], there was no recommendation to wear face masks,” he said. They “end up creating a false sense of security and most people don’t wear them appropriately,” he said.
The WHO. The CDC. The National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. Johns Hopkins.
These are not politicians. They are scientists. And they were telling everyone not to wear masks. There are dozens of other such articles. Sorry, but what you said is completely incorrect. Scientists were out here on CNN telling people not to wear masks. Yes, "the science" evolved, which is all the more reason not to bludgeon people with it.
You're right, not just the politicians. The scientist lied in addition to the politicians. Many were in political positions or doing it for a noble cause. But the science didn't evolve. It's not that complicated. Just the fact of this conflict caused skepticism back in March: "masks won't protect you" but "we need masks to protect health care workers"
As far as my post, I said there was "no scientific evidence" to support their statements. But yes, plenty of officials lied to protect health care workers.
Most was misleading rather than a lie.
"There is no scientific evidence that masks will protect you" (true in a way, studies are most always only with healthcare workers)
"we do not recommend the use of masks at this time" (leaves it open to recommend later)
The Surgeon General:
"Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS!" Adams tweeted on February 29. "They are NOT effective in preventing [the] general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
The SG goes too far and has been widely criticized.
I was wrong to only mention the Federal government and the Surgeon General. WHO, New York's mayor, CDC, NIH,...
Interestingly, prior to this crisis the CDC did recommend mask as protection for SARS1. You have to set your search before Jan 1 to see pre-crisis research and articles. I had found one when I searched in Feb/March that showed 5X protection with an N95 mask but there is too much to sift through now. Doesn't mean you should get one if you could. Pre COVID19 examples:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3692-face-masks-are-best-protection-against-sars/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC191266/
In the second article above from the National Institutes of Health back during the time of the first SARS:
"The use of N95 respirators, a recommendation adopted from tuberculosis (TB) protection guidelines, has been suggested by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for protection against SARS, although the CDC recommends that only NIOSH-approved respirators be used.4 Of note, TB bacteria are much larger than the SARS virus, which indicates that a higher-efficiency respirator would be required for adequate protection against the virus."
Look, they know all the details of what works and what doesn't. But they were completely unprepared.
I will add that no prior research on mask is without debate. It's usually difficult to fund and usually only funded for health care workers. They also can't ethically compare it to a control group of not wearing a mask. So research will usually be with health care workers comparing a N95 to surgical and maybe to cloth. But I guarantee you if there was unlimited supply of N95 masks they would recommend everyone wear them. As far as protection, N95> surgical mask > cloth mask > nothing.
The science didn't change. They knew it before theses crisis statements in February and March. N95 Mask supplies ran out in January. WHO's statement was in late January or February.
Of course they did it to protect frontline health care workers. They shouldn't have lied (get to back to that later) but it was a crisis. Imagine for every N95 mask that some guy wears on the street, that's one frontline heath care worker that doesn't have a mask. And the difference is that the guy on the street has a low probability of being exposed to a material viral load. The frontline healthcare worker, however, without a mask could have so much viral load exposure that they could die, as we have seen many times in the last few months.
As far as the lies:
One of many articles that show the timeline and examples:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/the-experts-lied-to-us-about-masks/
Unfortunately these lies undermine the public's confidence in officials and it was a stupid thing to do:
https://www.cato.org/blog/against-noble-lie-covid-19-edition
And that's where we are now. No one knows who to trust.
BoFan THIS 1000 times over...the mixed message on the daily, the control of information not only by social media, but news outlets etc has caused such distrust.
I agree Blue Bayou. The mixed messages from public officials has caused long-term damage.
Fox didn’t question it, but plenty of other news outlets questioned the validity of the don’t wear masks guidelines back in February and March.
By the way I was a big Linda Ronstadt fan.
Isn't this edging into conspiracy theory territory, though? We're not just talking about US government agencies, we're including the WHO (which has its own issues) and private universities. You're suggesting that they all managed, either independently or together, to come up with a plan to lie to the American public about masks until the supply was enough that hospitals wouldn't have to worry about running out? And then all change their tune at once?
I try to never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity, but what you're suggesting the whole cabal of scientists in the world did is both malicious and stupid. After all, it would've been a lot easier to simply dial up Whitmer and the other governors and say "hey. your emergency declaration gives you almost infinite powers. we need you to ban the sale of masks." Or to tell everyone to wear a cloth mask.
It seems more likely that they simply legitimately believed masks would be pointless for people going to the grocery store for five minutes to grab milk and bread.
Either way, the layman can hardly be expected to tell the difference between when scientists are telling the truth or not, and that brings me back to my original point: using "the science" to bludgeon people with a moral crusade and calling them murderous sociopaths for not wearing a mask is a dick move. (I know this isn't you.) Anyone with that point of view at the end of March would have been verbally assaulting people for wearing a mask, and then turning around and doing the opposite a month later.
And whatever the motives, we agree on one thing: Science done fucked up big time. That further reinforces the notion that there are now millions who, very fairly, don't trust what scientists say, and should not be called sociopaths for not believing known liars.
It wasn't a conspiracy. Mistakes under pressure. A number of conflicting considerations perhaps.
Some, probably many, scientists were openly disappointed and disagreed with WHO. One well known HK virologist on the early task force that discovered the extent of the crisis wanted to recommend masks but was overruled. I personally believe they all should have been transparent and honest while clearly telling people how important the N95 supply is for healthcare workers. Most people would have rallied. There are always the selfish hoarders.
But not at all a conspiracy. These folks behind the front lines were under extreme pressure and made mistakes. Lying to preserve PPE for health care workers had a short term benefit but long term cost. Though there is too much acceptance of lying these days which I don’t agree with. So I’m not saying it’s ok.
Now people are rightly skeptical. But, unlike before where there was a significant public good goal for lying, there is no agenda now about recommending masks.
Just this morning:
”White House coronavirus response coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx said Sunday that there is "clear scientific evidence" that masks work”
This is not a criticism of Dr Brix at all but perhaps she should cite the “evidence” to be more convincing given the prior statements of other officials.
Which peer pressure do you suggest they don’t give into: The peer pressure to do cocaine or the peer pressure to not do cocaine. The peer pressure to dance inside a “side show” or plank on a cliff, or the peer pressure not to risk their life doing something stupid. The blog that says masks are a left wing conspiracy or the science (not the random scientist or people like Dr Phil who isn't even a Dr) and logic that says they protect lives.
How about this message for kids:
Don’t believe everything you hear or read. Check the source. Check the facts.
Sharpen your intellectual skills. Become independent thinkers and not rebellious or lemming thinkers.
That same message clearly would be good for a lot of adults.
Check the facts and the source. Is it a controversial conspiracy theorist calling themselves a doctor or is it a respected scientist with no political controversy and a history of apolitical publications. Is it someone with an agenda. Is the media outlet one with an independent editorial board or is it owned by somebody with an agenda. Is it a research institute funded and operated independently or funded by someone or an industry with an agenda. Finally, try proving authenticity the opposite of what your gut, and circle of friends, wants to believe.
Play chess not checkers.
"The only thing masks seem to do is keep the mask wearers from understanding social distancing rules. Given your mask protects me and not you, I appreciate it, but I'll just keep my 6 feet distance and no mask, thank you"
Lol you just contradicted yourself and admitted that masks do work then admitted you're too selfish to protect other people
Actually, it's a perfectly fair point. Even mask advocates state that the magical 6-foot barrier is more important than the mask, and that you're supposed to continue to stay away from people even if you're wearing a mask.
If you look at how people are actually behaving, though -- most (not all) people wearing a mask believe in its magic, and therefore throw distancing out the window.
Wearing a mask and staying 6 feet apart aren't mutually exclusive. You can socially distance and wear a mask for those people who are stupid or have a momentary breach and get too close to you
Of course they're not mutually exclusive in theory. In practice, though -- just look at how people actually behave.
Correct J. I swear, put a mask on you oh-so-educated oh-so-careful people and you think you are invincible. I cannot count the number of times I've had to back up from one of you mask wearers who seem to think that little piece of cloth entitles you to my space.
I keep my distance and barely breathe when it gets a little congested, if I've got the Covid and you get it from me, you've earned it.
1) explain the MgoDR who sat next to a confirmed COVID co worker for two days unprotected and shows no exposure and no antibodies with said co worker testing positive two days later.
2) explain the you not me science...if a t-shirt stops me from infecting you with these microparticulate drops...how does it not stop them from getting in? I mean the science says I need to wear the mask for you is it some magical one way fabric? Couldn't I just tug on the neck of my shirt and cough in my shirt?
1. Explain all the people who do any number of things that have inherent risk and don’t get hurt/sick etc. There is an element of luck involved. Being in an accident with a seat belt and air bag doesn’t guarantee you’ll live. Being in an accident without them doesn’t guarantee you’ll die, but your odds are greater with the airbag and seatbelt than without,
2a. The concentration of particles coming straight out of your mouth is where it is at it’s highest. That is where there is greatest value in using a barrier and why it has higher value in limiting the spread from you.
2b.it’s not just coughing, it’s any exhalation. Singing, talking loudly, breathing heavily will all spread more.
Possibly the saddest thing going here is that you have all these very well reasoned and intelligent posts that don't necessarily agree with conventional wisdom and they continually get negged, while people whose posts consist of "if you don't wear a mask you're a fucking fuckity-fuck prick ass bitch Republican who needs to die" are universally praised. Moral crusaders suck.
Literally nothing he said has been close to "well reasoned" or "intelligent." His only point is that "I stay 6 feet away so masks are stupid" and he's contradicted himself and said masks do work but he still won't wear one
I did not read that as admitting that masks definitely work. I read that as "since you think they work to protect me, good for you, but keep your distance either way."
I'm not sure what is so confusing about what I posted. It's fairly well known that masks don't do a very good job keeping you from getting the Covid, but they do keep you from spreading the Covid. Mainly from keeping your respiratory moisture from spreading to other people.
If you are operating under any other assumption you are just as Ill informed as those who think God will protect them.
I suppose it probably can't hurt to wear a mask, but my experience has been that people who do forget the more important rule of just keeping as far away from people as you can.
Maizeandbluewahoo such is the world here. Narrative A is applauded and accepted as THE right way. Narrative B is wrong fucking moron not a UM alum, want to see people die, ignorant...etc. the UM I attended promoted investigation, reasoned discourse, accepting other ideas, etc...I'm slowly learning to take in one ear and leave it there