Questions on "StalionsGate"

Submitted by FauxMo on October 23rd, 2023 at 4:55 PM

Since we are now deep into Scandal Obsession, here are a few questions that I have that I'd like some Board feedback on:

1. It seems to me that the only way this kind of signal intelligence could really provide a competitive advantage to the team is if Stalions was literally standing next to OC/DC during the game (probably with an electronic device in-hand) and telling the OC/DC the play that is about to come based on the signal. Isn't that right? And if it is, well, there should be plenty of video of Stalions on the sidelines doing exactly that in earlier games this year. In which case, this should be easy to prove or disprove, no? 

2. Connected to the above, does having this kind of information really provide much of a competitive advantage at all? In my opinion, it would be a really, really limited advantage. Even assuming the opponent is using the exact same signals for all plays as used in earlier games (which seems crazy to me), the OC/DC would have literally seconds to learn what play is coming and then call in a revised formation to the offense or defense. That seems like it would do little but cause confusion. 

3. Finally, is anyone else madder about the fact that it was done in such a sloppy way than about the alleged "cheating" itself? If this guy really bought tickets in his own name and transferred them to friends, he is painfully stupid. We live in 2023, the age of Venmo, Bitcoin and the Dark Web. Send cash, dude! 

4th phase

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:31 PM ^

For 2 I think it could be a potentially huge advantage. You don't need to know every play. Just a few key 3rd down plays. And you don't even need to completely signal what the play is, or totally change your defensive play. Could be as simple as signaling run v play action v pass or something like "slant the d line left

RockinLoud

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:04 PM ^

I think likely the dude was just grinding to get a staff position with UM and unintentionally broke the rules. Intentions or not, if he broke the rules he broke the rules, even if there was little to no impact on actual game outcomes. This wouldn't matter at most other schools, but the NCAA wants to hose Harbaugh for anything and everything and I bet this will be trumped up as a major violation that will likely cost the program dearly. 

 

sdogg1m

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:05 PM ^

While I hope that nothing major happens as far as punishment, I will say that Michigan needs to step up its compliance game.

First, you had the Schembechler Twitter scandal and now this. An employee who is tech savvy should be in charge of continuous vetting of potential and current employees.

AMazinBlue

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:21 PM ^

What benefit all this may or may not have provided to the coaching staff is completely irrelevant.  From an NCAA perspective, their only concern is did someone associated with the program advance scout (attend games of future opponents) VIOLATION!!! And is there proof that it happened and can they prove Harbaugh knew or any coach knew?

Is it possible that Stalions bought tickets people to attend those games with no mal intent?  Not trying to be naive, but could someone who is supposedly good at decoding, be smart enough to coordinate a bunch of people to gather intel at all these schools, and find a way to use it, but dumb enough not cover his tracks or even smart enough to not make it so obvious.

And he has been doing this for 3 years, but has only been with the program for 1.5 years. So it is being theorized that he was collecting the data for 1.5 years to prove he should be hired?  Wow, weak argument, but the NCAA has punished schools for more with less.

GPCharles

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:22 PM ^

A couple of comments:

1.  Stealing signals is NOT illegal in and of itself.

2.  Teams are not using the Enigma machine to encode and decode their signals.  These by definition are simple codes - plays are called by the OC, transmitted to the sideline code guys and signaled in to the QB who then decodes them and calls the play, all of this in seconds.  You don't need Alan Turing to break these codes.  I would think they could be broken in a matter of minutes if teams had a dedicated analyst to work on them.

There is a reason every sideline coach covers hit mouth when speaking - just where are all the lipreaders hidden.

 

 

UMinSF

October 23rd, 2023 at 8:14 PM ^

...and yet they openly display huge signs in front of 100,000 people. 

it's funny , I've always wanted a broadcaster to explain what the signs mean - it never occurred to me it could possibly be against the rules for an opponent to study them.

honestly, I assumed they all did, and either it was of little value or teams just changed up the signs every game.

this is a really stupid rule to get worked up about.

ColoradoBlue

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:35 PM ^

This whole thing will boil down to this:  Was the loophole that he exploited a loophole in the eyes of the NCAA to be "patched" immediately in the bylaws, or was it a direct violation of the rule.  Every other point is moot:  dumb rule?  moot.  Marginal advantage?  moot.  Everyone does it?  likely true, but moot.  lone actor?  moot.

If the NCAA disagrees with his assertion that he found a loophole, we're probably screwed to some degree and it would come down to a Level 2 vs Level 1.  

If the NCAA says, "we think you knowingly violated the spirit of the rule and we're disappointed, but we're dropping the charges due to the wording of the rule," then we're golden.  

I find it VERY hard to believe that, legal or not, other teams haven't tried this (if, in fact, there is any material advantage gained).  We should immediately scour ticket records and search for others who have tried this in our stadium.  Perhaps other teams are just better at covering their tracks.

The Homie J

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:01 PM ^

 Was the loophole that he exploited a loophole in the eyes of the NCAA to be "patched" immediately in the bylaws, or was it a direct violation of the rule. 

This right here is the crux of the whole thing.  He clearly thought he was golden and within the rules (and technically, yes he is).  But if the NCAA determines it enough of a "spiritual" violation, then who knows what happens.  How do you appropriately punish a team when a staffer finds a legal loophole?  Usually, a stern lecture and rewrite of the rules but given everything else, the NCAA might slap the "Lack of Institutional Control" label on it and blow it up into a real mess.

UMinSF

October 24th, 2023 at 7:48 PM ^

I agree with you for the most part, but if proof is found that lots of other schools are doing this, then this looks very much like selective enforcement.

no way could/would they punish many schools for breaking the same dumb rule - and if they tried to punish only 1, I'd think that school could effectively fight any punishment. 

that said, I don't understand ncaa's logic or processes at all, and they sure do seem to selectively enforce.

AWAS

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:37 PM ^

To answer your questions:

1.  Probably didn't need an electronic device.  Sounds like the kind of guy who immersed himself in knowing the opponent, their tendencies, weaknessess, and where they pose the most risk. Given his internal motivation, he probably studied/analysed the opponent well enough to instinctively know what the tendencies were.  

2. You are correct about the difficulty of operationalizing a response to stolen signals in the timeframe of one play.  Probably the best he could do is identify a high leverage situation where the opponent play is a large risk given the defense called (and call timeout). It's not about stolen signals as much as it about the analysis of opponent situational tendencies.  These predictive elements become part of the game plan and weekly meeting/practice content.  This is the NFL level analytics I suggested in another thread, and sigint is just another input.

3. This sloppiness indicates an individual actor rather than a conspiracy.  Every other program wishes they had such motivated staffers.  The butt hurt NCAA won't see it this way, but most others aren't trying hard enough.  Unless there is evidence of electronic comm or sigint gathering on game day, the staffer scouting in person, or reimbursements for expenses by the program, there is no actual rule being broken.  There is just someone trying harder, just like satellite camps, sleepovers, and workouts with recruits.

EDIT:  As several have mentioned, the other area where this type of intelligence gathering provides a large competitive advantage is self-study; when the analytics are used to identify weaknesses and tells in your own program, and changes made to mess with the other team.  There is no rule against self-scouting (yet).

 

Hensons Mobile…

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:38 PM ^

1) Standing next to them (which I believe someone noted he has) or using other illegal means of in-game communication.

2) This really doesn't matter as far as the investigation goes. I don't know how much it matters competitively, but I would guess less than a lot but more than nothing.

3) My guess is he wasn't paranoid enough to think it would ever be investigated.

Midukman

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:40 PM ^

A lot of these tickets can be written off by the fact he wasn’t on staff. Having OSU vs PSU tickets isn’t a good look. The whole fucking thing isn’t a good look and quite honestly wasn’t needed the way we’ve played. 

blueheron

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:41 PM ^

To OP's third question:

What's really bugging me at the moment is that OSU [1] is doing this more smoothly and effectively than we are. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. They're a well-run football program.

[1] There's no way in hell OSU doesn't also do this. Same goes for Alabama et al.

Michfan777

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:54 PM ^

Oh everyone is most assuredly doing this or trying to do this.

The NCAA just has a weird boner for Harbaugh and is finding stuff to get him with IMO. Just the college sports version of a shitty cop following you long enough to catch you not using your turn signal or something. 

Michfan777

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:51 PM ^

I’m just concerned about how aggressive the NCAA gets with any vacating of wins… win #1000 (which should be in the next few weeks hopefully) AND the all time most wins could all be in jeopardy. Michigan is at 997 right now, with OSU and Alabama at 959 and 953

Squad16

October 23rd, 2023 at 7:23 PM ^

Totally disagree.

Harbaugh game suspensions are the best, they mean little to nothing (if that wasn't clear to start the year). Harbaugh's impact is in recruiting & overall program management; we don't lose that just bc he can't physically be on the sideline for 3 hours after being with the team all week. He doesn't call plays and isn't that good at managing the clock/timeouts if we're being honest. 

A postseason ban this year would be awful, but nothing will happen that fast so we're safe. A postseason ban next year wouldn't be as bad, it's not like Michigan is going to be a favorite to win it all every year (and we have an awful record in bowl games under Harbaugh anyways). 

Wiping out our 2021 and 2022 accomplishments, the first championships and victories over good OSU teams 15+ years, would be devastating. Those of us who became fans in the 2010s waited so long for these past few years, and to wipe out its meaning with a stain in everyone's eyes is what is so horrible about this right now, more than anything for the players on those teams. 

Hensons Mobile…

October 23rd, 2023 at 7:43 PM ^

I think there's a difference between Harbaugh being suspended over the summer in advance of Bowling Green and getting suspended now for the home stretch and/or postseason. But point taken.

A postseason ban this year would be awful, but nothing will happen that fast so we're safe.

This is probably the reality, I am just in fear-the-worst mode with the NCAA.

A postseason ban next year wouldn't be as bad,

It's bad. Especially with a 12-team playoff.

Wiping out our 2021 and 2022 accomplishments, the first championships and victories over good OSU teams 15+ years, would be devastating.

Eh, they happened.

to wipe out its meaning with a stain in everyone's eyes

I have bad news for you, the stain is there forever for whoever views it that way regardless of the official record books. Sorry.

Honestly, the ONLY bad thing about vacated wins is that our number of wins is part of our brand.

UMFan1992

October 23rd, 2023 at 5:54 PM ^

There are interesting questions about whether the reported conduct would violate either of the two rules cited in the media reports.  (This analysis is separate from the wisdom, morality, or clumsiness of the reported conduct, of course.)

The first rule, Rule 11.6.1, says that “[o]ff campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited,” subject to two exceptions.  The interpretive issue here is whether the reported conduct (assuming it occurred, of course) constitutes “in-person scouting.”  You might think it’s obvious that it is because someone showed up at the game, but bear in mind that the rule governs the conduct of people who are “employed by or associated with member institutions,” 11.01.1,and it may not be the case that anyone employed by or associated with the University attended other teams’ games.  You might think that causing someone else to do so would violate the rule, but the fact that the rule only governs “in-person scouting” by covered individuals (i.e., employees or associates of the university) arguably means that scouting that is NOT done directly by those covered employees does not violate the rule.  This is supported by the fact that the rules use the term “in-person” many times, and appears to distinguish between an employee showing up him- or herself and acting through an intermediary.  So, for example, there are situations where “an institutional coaching staff member may communicate (but not have in-person contact)” with high school students, 13.6.1.2.2(c), suggesting that “in-person” means showing up yourself rather than communicating or obtaining information through an intermediary.

There also seems to be an argument that the reported conduct does not violate the second rule, which addresses the recording of signals.  That rule, Article 11(h), specifically governs “game management personnel,” and addresses “[p]rohibited [f]ield [e]quipment,” art. 11.  It’s pretty clearly confined to the use of equipment in a game in which the violating party’s team is playing.  This is confirmed by the text of the anti-recording rule, which applies only to the attempted recording of “signals given by an OPPOSING” player, coach, or employee.  11(h) (emphasis added).  If the institution on whose behalf the recording is done is not playing in the game, it is not an “opposing” team, and so there is no violation.  (For example, it was reported that in some game or other, both teams were scouted.  It would be counter-intuitive to say that BOTH teams in the same game count as the “opposing” team; neither is playing against the alleged violator.)

M-Dog

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:09 PM ^

I think a good lawyer could prove that Michigan did not technically violate the 2 rules:

1) The first rule is for people employed / associated with the university, doing in-person scouting,

2) The second rule is for electronic scouting of an opponent during a game with that opponent.

Neither of those things technically happened.  

But the NCAA can just make up its own interpretations, it is not a court of law.

contra mundum

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:02 PM ^

If they weren't being payed by Stalions, I wonder how many of them them bothered to show up, even with a free ticket to the game. Will be interesting to find out. 

M-Dog

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:10 PM ^

They probably lived in the area.

If I had a friend / associate that worked for Michigan and he said: "Hey, you live in the DC area, would you mind going to some Maryland, Penn State, and Rutgers games and do some scouting for me?  I especially want you to take videos of those colorful signs they hold up and those strange hand signals they make before each play, then video the play." . . . I would do it in an instant.  I wouldn't even know there is any rule against it.

It's not that hard to get a "vast network" of just regular people to video things with smartphones without them knowing there is anything wrong with that.

 

contra mundum

October 23rd, 2023 at 6:16 PM ^

I might go  too, and was just as ignorant of the rule. However, if the choice came down to watching Rutgers vs Ohio State or stay home, have a nice meal, watch multiple games, and take a nap, I might decide not to go. The game wouldn't be all that interesting really, and not much of a motivational tool.  

wildbackdunesman

October 23rd, 2023 at 7:03 PM ^

Your point about him having to stand next to the coordinators is invalid, because it's in theory possible he taught others what the signals were or even he was just a middle man getting the info.

bronxblue

October 23rd, 2023 at 7:19 PM ^

This objectively looks bad for UM and while I was on the fence earlier I'm going to admit it's not a good look.

At the same time, I just don't care anymore.  Bill Self and Wade are still coaching, PSU got their wins returned, etc.  I don't think Harbaugh knew what Stalion was doing but somebody did, and so my guess is UM gets some level of punishment below vacated wins but somewhat substantial punishments beyond that.  But I don't give a shit what OSU, MSU, and PSU fans have to say and the fact a bunch of them are running around without a moment of introspection says about all you need to know about their internal consistencies.

Schuess11

October 23rd, 2023 at 10:12 PM ^

This somewhat pertains to this topic. If this investigation were that serious. Would Vegas be making Michigan that National title favorites and be making JJ the Heisman favorites? I would think they would be suspending bets on all michigan related games or players if it was really that serious.