Question About Offensive Play Calling/Sets with McNamara vs Milton
I possess a horribly untrained eye for football concepts and strategy. Even so, to me, it appeared that the offensive play calling looked to utilize more traditional Harbaugh concepts while McNamara was at the helm of the offense. This seemed especially true in the second half, despite some of the weird 3rd down play calling. So:
1) Is that take correct?
2) If it is correct, do those with more football knowledge think that is because of the different skills each QB possesses?
3) Or do people think Harbaugh took the reigns/play calling back?
4) Lastly, if slightly modernized, are Harbaugh's base offensive concepts still able to be successful and competitive in today's game?
Any light shined by those will better understanding would be greatly appreciated.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:22 PM ^
I am equally as untrained and I thought the opposite. I thought that when Cade came in, we saw more “speed in space” with screens, slants, option reads, etc.
I felt the offense looked more limited in the first half and then we went back into sludgefarting manball in OT.
im sure this is incorrect, but it looked like Gattis called the 2nd half with his offense and then JH had full influence in OT.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:26 PM ^
I agree. When Cade was in the game, it looked like more Speed in Space type play calling.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:32 PM ^
Actually disagree. Power run game, play-action passes and traditional screens / West Coast out patterns. Total Harbaugh.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:05 PM ^
I think you're forgetting...
Successful play = Speed in Space
Unsuccessful play = HARBAUGH
November 22nd, 2020 at 11:54 PM ^
Haha right!
November 23rd, 2020 at 11:47 AM ^
Math checks out
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:17 PM ^
Speed Incase?
November 23rd, 2020 at 8:22 AM ^
Speed in Cade.
November 23rd, 2020 at 10:29 AM ^
My highly uneducated opinion: regardless of scheme, when the QB throws the ball where it's supposed to go, when it's supposed to go there, the offense seems to work better.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:25 PM ^
I just think Cade can more effectively run Speed in Space because he is a more accurate passer which will allow the receivers to make the catch in stride rather than Milton's bullets which are all over the place. I look forward to the next game against Penn State and hopefully an expansion of the playbook.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:28 PM ^
While I don't think Milton was the only culprit on offense, Ace and others seem to think the offensive struggles had nothing to do with Milton. Seems like a very odd take.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:46 PM ^
I’m convinced that Ace hadn't watched the entire game by the time he wrote that. He had some takes that screamed, “I only watched the highlights”. His Milton take was one of them.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:55 PM ^
Milton was demonstrably slower to get to the line and slower to pull the trigger. He was also visibly indecisive and anxious.
November 23rd, 2020 at 2:18 AM ^
Exactly. McNamara does everything quicker than Milton which makes the entire offense run faster. Milton is tentative and slow at this point. His zip on the ball bails him out a lot, but not often enough.
McNamara also throws a much more catchable ball than Milton. You don't see all the WR and TE drops with McNamara. Because Milton is a second slower than McNamara, he relies on blasting the ball to his WRs and TEs to make up the delay. These are still college WRs and TEs, and young ones at that. They are not NFL WRs and TEs. They definitely appear to struggle with many of Milton's passes.
November 23rd, 2020 at 8:01 AM ^
Milton appears to process things much slower than McNamara. He also cannot do progressions very well, if at all. McNamara was all over this. He has to be the guy going forward...
November 22nd, 2020 at 10:14 PM ^
that's charitable.
he was live tweeting the game and practically implying people were idiots for suggesting Milton was holding the offense back, even after Cade went in.
not sure if he still believes that. it's tough to come off a strongly held opinion, i get it i guess.
November 23rd, 2020 at 12:25 AM ^
If this is true, it is a complete unwillingness to face the data. 4 min left in the 2d qtr: 0 points. Cade leading the offense for 2 qtrs + 4 min: 5 touchdowns. Not to mention the eye test, which was pretty conclusive.
November 23rd, 2020 at 7:54 AM ^
Expansion of the playbook? You forget, we're at the part of the season where "we're saving all of our good plays for OSU"
November 23rd, 2020 at 9:19 AM ^
Logged in to upvote. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought this.
November 23rd, 2020 at 12:06 PM ^
I know this post is in jest, still makes me cry thinking of the 2018 game...
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:28 PM ^
Harbaugh took over the play calling once Cade came in, no doubt . But this is still a Gattis born scheme, but Jim is just a much more experienced offensive coordinator. Gattis can learn a ton from Jim Harbaugh.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:29 PM ^
Not sure I ever saw the traditional Harbaugh offense out there. What I saw was Cade being able to make reads and deliver with touch, timing, and accuracy.
Running the ball isn't Cade's strength, obviously. He can make a read, pull, and get a couple of yards (e.g. his rush TD), but with so many athletes on the field, it feels like Gattis turtles in some situations and reverts to Michigan Lizard Brain. Run it between the tackles. Unless that's Harbaugh intervening.
Haskins bailed the playcalling out numerous times by breaking tackles and finding yards when the box was stacked, which reinforced some bad playcalling habits, but it also seemed clear Michigan needs to throw first to set up running lanes and not the other way around. I was pulling my hair out when the announcers were still repeating the "Michigan needs to establish the run" nonsense into the second half. Michigan needs to score, not "establish the run" by slamming into an 8-man box.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:36 PM ^
Harbaugh definitely took over when Cade came in. That was not a read-option spread attack. It was mix of power runs and play-action passing. Total Harbaugh.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:25 PM ^
Hey buddy, please watch this play.
https://youtu.be/9cMe3xUf-40?t=257
See how Cade's eyes are on the cornerback #2 the moment he receives the ball? When he sees the CB rush the LOS as he's got the ball in Charbonnet's gut, he throws it over the top of the out-of-position CB for a nice first down throw to Mikey Sainristil. Yeah, that's called an RPO. That's not play-action.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:35 PM ^
One play does not exactly refute his point of view. No one on here knows who is play calling and when. Cade clearly made plays that Milton was not making. It matters less who was calling the plays. Results speak for themselves. We have had plenty of evidence now that Milton struggles coming off his first read, not even mentioning his accuracy issues.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:44 PM ^
Would you like me to do an in-depth analysis of every snap to refute his claim instead? The point the above poster was trying to make was that the offense somehow reverted to Harbaugh's "west-coast power run and play action pass style" when Cade went in. I refuted by showing a clear example of an RPO being run, a play that I believe shows Gattis was calling the plays no matter who was in at QB. The offensive play-calling clearly DID NOT change when McNamara came in for Milton.
I don't know where you got this insinuation that I was somehow defending Milton for his struggles. I actually completely agree with you that Cade can more accurately read a defense, will scan the field for multiple reads, and chooses the right type of pass for the situation thus giving the receivers a higher chance of catching the ball. So the same types of plays that were called when Milton was in were less successful due to those factors.
November 23rd, 2020 at 10:58 AM ^
Would you like me to do an in-depth analysis of every snap to refute his claim instead?
I really don't care who was calling the plays, but if you are offering, then yes I would enjoy reading about it.
November 23rd, 2020 at 1:22 PM ^
I would totally read that. Especially if you did Milton's too, so we could see any differences. Even if you just did some, it would be a good read.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:38 PM ^
Cade’s first TD pass changed everything. Rutgers was quite content to stack the box and dare Michigan to beat them over the top. When Cade hit that pass, Schiano had to back off the safeties. He’s a good defensive coach. All of a sudden those inside zone runs (that people derogatively refer to as slamming the ball up the middle) started working because there was a little room for Haskins to maneuver.
It’s not just the up-the-middle stuff either. The quick hits to the edge work a lot better when the corners and safeties have to respect the deep ball and can’t crowd the line. Corum’s runs to the edge don’t work with Milton in the game because there is no space there. Move the DBs back and all of a sudden speed in space works.
My guess is it was the same offense, just 2 different defensive approaches from Rutgers. I would have to rewatch the game to confirm that. But no one can make me do that.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:52 PM ^
Not what I witnessed when Cade took over. Run game went to power away from pure zone. And then play-action pass off of the run game opened both things up. Pure Harbaugh. Did you like the West Coast outs and that screen play ? Bill Walsh would be proud of Jim.
November 22nd, 2020 at 11:52 PM ^
You keep saying this. Do you think if you say it enough times it will cease to be false?
Another poster replied to you with a clip from the game that refuted your point. You said nothing in response. Do you have any evidence to back your claim? Until you do, you will continue to look stubborn and foolish.
November 22nd, 2020 at 10:50 PM ^
My guess as well Teeba.
Penn State will give us a better idea though. Better defense will give us a better idea where McNamara really stands as a QB.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:33 PM ^
I’d research RPO concepts, OP. Harbaugh still loves himself some manball but Gattis needs a versatile QB that can move if needed.
Our “speed in space” mantra is really about giving the defense multiple looks with a QB who is quick and hits on high % passes.
I’m sure Milton can be a good QB someday but Cade has shown he can hit our receivers with the right amount of touch on throws while making the right pre-snap read. Milton had a tendency to stare down his receiver and thread the needle as much as he could. It was inevitable he was going to start throwing INTs... and then he started throwing INTs.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:44 PM ^
Milton is actually not very mobile.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:48 PM ^
The best word I have to describe his running is lumbering. He’s more of a tall fullback as a runner than a tailback. He could still be an effective runner, he just needs to hit the deep ball to force the safeties back and give the offense a numerical advantage.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:51 PM ^
There's just not much acceleration or quick twitch. I'm sure he hauls ass once he's started up, but he was painfully slow on the 4&1 stop this week and the goalline stop last week.
November 23rd, 2020 at 8:44 AM ^
I think his apparent slowness is indecisiveness. Needs to tuck it and run in some cases, yet, he still thinks he can throw it somewhere.
November 23rd, 2020 at 11:06 AM ^
Exactly, Blau. Even to an untrained observer such as myself, it appears that Milton holds the ball longer, stares down his primary receiver and then tries to fit the ball into a tight window using velocity, which often disrupts his accuracy. Not trying to slam Milton. Maybe in practices he's calmer and processes his reads better, but I just don't see much of it in his in-game play. Just the way it appears to me.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:48 PM ^
I don't know what it was, but he reminded me of Northwestern offenses with guys like Trevor Siemian or Dan Persa ... where they don't look like world beaters but they spread it around, get rid of it quickly, and drive you crazy.
November 23rd, 2020 at 9:50 AM ^
+1 for northwestern deep cuts.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:51 PM ^
Man, I disagree with this completely. I thought we went RPO-crazy once Cade came in. That looked a lot like the offense from the end of 2019 to me. With Milton, it seemed like we mostly shelved the RPOs. I don't know if he wasn't very good at them or if he just always handed off.
November 22nd, 2020 at 8:57 PM ^
Thanks. Like Blau said above, I think I need to learn more about RPO concepts. I know there is a lot of content out there, but I still fail to diagnose those concepts unless they are incredibly obvious.
November 22nd, 2020 at 9:01 PM ^
Play-action not read-option, it was total power run and play-action. Pure West Coast flare-outs, pick-play crosser, and a true screen play !
November 22nd, 2020 at 10:54 PM ^
There was definitely play action, but I did see some RPOs as well. They really play well off each other if you ask me. I'd have both in my offense.
November 22nd, 2020 at 11:26 PM ^
Upon watching the every snap videos, I agree with this. More traditional PA than I realized, but also plenty of RPOs peppered in there.
November 22nd, 2020 at 11:35 PM ^
I got the sense that it was a fairly even spread. I think that tracks with how Gattis has called games in the past, last season included.
November 23rd, 2020 at 7:23 AM ^
I think Milton has trouble with RPOs. I think it was MSU he had a high low read where the high had double coverage and the low was running wide open and he threw it to the double coverage. To make these double coverage throws, he throws extremely hard, and this results in receivers dropping, or worse, knocking the ball up into the air.
Cade is making the correct read and throwing easy catchable passes to the receiver to catch and run. I think Shae struggled with RPO reads too, at least for a lot of the season last year. It's nice seeing a QB check down to the easy toss and catch the system is made to do. Take the easy yards, stay ahead of the sticks.
November 23rd, 2020 at 8:56 AM ^
Cade is going to be a way better college QB than Milton because he has so much experience and knows how to run an offense. He certainly doesn't have close to the arm that Milton has, but Milton's arm is almost too much for college right now. He needs more time to develop. You really don't need to have a laser rocket arm to beat college teams. It helps, but accuracy is more important.
November 23rd, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
"Needs more time to develop." I really think the days of "growing" a QB for a couple of years is dying. New QB recruits (obviously not all) have been to camps, etc., and come in much more ready to go. Milton has an arm, but I don't think UM has the time needed to develop him.
November 23rd, 2020 at 2:57 PM ^
Milton is a junior. Development time is over. After a really good season, a junior goes to the NFL.
That Cade outplayed Milton as a freshman just shows that there is a huge gulf between these two. Cade is much better. Adjusted for experience, he is tremendously better.
God only knows how Milton started.
My concern about Cade is that he is not a good runner (not very large or fast and little time in a college weight room) and looks a lot more fragile than Milton. And so JH/JG will run him and get him hurt.