OT: Disney imagineers building Americana park

Submitted by Dennis on July 22nd, 2023 at 6:50 AM

Some former Disney Imagineers have been contracted to build an "Americana-themed" 125-acre amusement park off of Route 66 in Oklahoma. 

American Heartland will have 6 distinctly themed areas that each tell a different part of "the American story." 

Maybe I'm underestimating the South but why on earth would anyone want to visit this place? For one, you could just actually tour AMERICA if you're already here AND how the fuck do you talk about the American story without acknowledging how deeply fucked our history is? 

I can't imagine that they'll have a zone about slavery, or colonization, etc. Maybe they can have a theme with Washington crossing the Potomac, but, again, you can go fucking see the Potomac - it's IN America, lol. Seems a little odd to me, but then again that Noah's Ark park is still open and operating in Kentucky so I'm sure the park will do well. Maybe they can get Garth to promote it. 

Clarence Boddicker

July 22nd, 2023 at 9:26 PM ^

To me this is  like saying FDR intended for Pearl Harbor to happen because FDR placed the Pacific Fleet at Pearl against the recommendation of its commanding officer.

These aren't the same thing at all. I'm talking about the way the CIA operated during the Cold War, starting with Alan Dulles.

Let's say John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State and brother of Alan, gets a phone call. Maybe it's from Winston Churchill who is hopping mad that the democratically elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh, wants to nationalize British Petroleum's oil resources. Or maybe it's from his good friends at United Fruit, who are concerned about the democratically elected leader there, Jacobo Arbenz, nationalizing land UF owned. The call could be about Patrice Lumumba in Congo. Or maybe Henry Kissinger gets that call. It's ITT, upset about Salvador Allende in Chile because he wants to nationalize their assets. Removing that leader from power is the solution but how to go about this? The US needs to keep its hands clean so as to not be seen interfering in another country's affairs. The solution is finding someone or some group that shares some aspect of your goal. Perhaps there are military generals who'd love a shot at running things. If the generals turn you down, find a group of junior officers chafing under the leadership of those generals. Next, help those actors with a plan, with arms and logistical support--maybe an airstrike or two if that will help--and the promise that the US will recognize your government as legitimate if you succeed.

Domestically, the enemy of our enemy can similarly be a friend. Malcolm X became a threat after he took the Hajj, came back, and renounced the views of Elijah Muhammad. At that point, like MLK in his denunciation of the Vietnam War, he threatened a shift from solely advocating for Black folks to becoming a unifier of the civil rights and anti-war movements--the Black Messiah of Hoover's nightmares. So the FBI signed Ray on as their patsy; they assured that a Nation of Islam shooter would have a clear line of sight and a slow police response. They gave the Chicago PD the layout of Hampton's residence. Hoover spied on everyone in Washington it's true, which is why he was FBI director from 1924 until the day he died. He was a closeted gay man whose lover, Clyde Tolson, was also an FBI guy. But Hoover was mostly a virulent racist with a special kind of hatred for civil rights leaders and communists. He treated the KKK with kid gloves by comparison. Hoover wouldn't even admit the fucking mob existed until they outed themselves at Apalachin

That's what I'm saying. 

SalvatoreQuattro

July 23rd, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^

Hoover isn’t defensible, but his fears in regards to the Mafia did end up proven correct to a certain point. FBI agents got corrupted in dealing with the Mob.

I’m sorry, man, I just am not going to buy the “Ray is a patsy” when there is much more actual proof that white supremacists were more than willing to commit such acts on their own. You are asking me to ignore a century of behavior of white supremacists.

The Soviet Union did the same thing. Cuba interfered in other nation’s affairs. It is what it is.

MgoBlaze

July 22nd, 2023 at 9:31 PM ^

I'm assuming you meant to type "wasn't" in that last sentence?

I actually didn't know that COINTELPRO also had an anti-KKK operation. But that's kind of a microcosm of what we're talking about, where the positives of America's history can't be separated from the negatives.

It says something about the cultural zeitgeist of the time that the organization responsible for countless brutal murders, kidnappings, intimidation, and other white supremacist violence was treated with the same kind of disdain as the groups that were protesting that violence after being victims of it (Malcolm X's father, for example, was killed by the KKK.) because of using their first amendment rights to advocate for a different system of government in an ostensible democracy.

 

SalvatoreQuattro

July 23rd, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^

Nation of Islam is not and was not a positive force of change. Malcolm X was a virulent antisemite.  Black Panthers were a violent organization that yes did some good things.

The FBI did persecute them. That isn’t deniable. But let’s not whitewash the reality of the above when condemning the wickedness of the FBI.

tsunami42080

July 22nd, 2023 at 11:07 PM ^

Well said, there are unfortunately a LOT of dirty little secrets that seem to be housed in our 3 letter agencies and government (both sides) the last 40-50 years. In addition to what you mentioned, Kiki Camerena, the multiple color revolutions that overthrew foreign governments, JFK, and more.
 

Also the most benevolent, welcoming to refugees, innovation (looking around almost everything I own was from American ideas and ingenuity) and much more.

This post strikes a nerve in that It bothers me that seemingly every celebration of America (4th of July, a theme park) invites people to shit on the country I love. As a comparison, I don’t go to colleagues or friends award ceremonies or birthday parties and point out they had an affair 20 years ago or other failures.
 

I don’t think any rational person would want slavery erased from history books…just that it’s taught factually, which there seems to be a large difference in opinion in how it’s taught.

Clarence Boddicker

July 23rd, 2023 at 3:50 PM ^

Because histories are written by humans and humans are unfailingly subjective even when we think of ourselves as objective. There is still greater credibility in a well-researched argument. But parallel versions of history co-exist. Southerners referring to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression for example. Claiming it wasn't about slavery, when it absolutely was. 

WestQuad

July 22nd, 2023 at 8:40 AM ^

I took my family on the freedom trail in Boston last year and then to, plimouth plantation (mayflower etc.) and then NYC (wall st. And the first capital building, the restaurant where George Washington said goodbye to his officers, and Hamilton on Broadway.  It was awesome. There are a lot of cool places to see in the US that make you proud to be an American. We did D.C. the year before and are planning more trips for the 5-7 years before our kids are out of the house.  Any suggestions?    Here is our current list:

 

Revolutionary war battle sites in upstate NY

Philly

Grand Canyon, Glacier, Yellowstone, Redwoods, Arches, Zion 

Nashville and Memphis

Some sort of Southern history tour in GA, AL, MS.   I hate the South because of the SEC and slavery but would like to open my heart a bit.  MLK/Rosa Parks stuff, Waffle House and ????

LA and SF

Seattle and the Olympic peninsula.

Montreal

 

 

1VaBlue1

July 22nd, 2023 at 8:50 AM ^

If you're looking around the Revolutionary sites perhaps you'll also be open to sniffing around the Civil War sites?  Gettysburg wouldn't be too far some some of the Rev War sites in NY/NJ.  And if you do get back to DC, you are only a couple hours drive from 10-12 Civil War sites (Fredericksburg is littered with them, Manassas, Bull Run, Spotsy Courthouse, etc)...  So much history in this area!

Amazinblu

July 22nd, 2023 at 9:14 AM ^

Gettysburg is tremendous.  I would suggest reserving a guide / docent for a vehicle tour of the site.  The guide gets in your car - and, you drive around the battlefield - great “one on one” perspectives - Q&A, etc.  The Hotel Gettysburg is.. on the town square and a great / convenient place to stay.

Valley Forge and the historic sites in downtown Philly are very notable.

L'Carpetron Do…

July 22nd, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^

As a flame-throwing liberal Yank, I have to say that I liked the South (parts of it, at least)* much more than I thought I would. I really liked South Carolina surprisingly and Virginia (esp. Shenandoah) has always been one of my favorite states. I highly recommend visiting Savannah, GA, really fascinating and picturesque town. 

I've always wanted to go to Montreal as well (+ Quebec).  If you're headed north I also loved Providence, RI and Portland, ME but those might be a little out of the way if you're going up to Canada. 

* - I hate Florida for several reasons and I hope to never set foot in the state for the rest of my life hah. I've had that goal for years. Apologies to Florida residents, no offense.

L'Carpetron Do…

July 22nd, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^

PS - OH ALSO!! HOT TIP!  I went out to southern CA with my girlfriend last year and I think the car rental place messed up so they just gave me a convertible Mustang(!) which was pretty funny. BUT, it was really great for our trip to Joshua Tree. Eventhough it was pretty cold that day (I always forget that it's pretty high desert) driving through with the top down really made the park viewing experience so much better. So, if you ever find yourself headed to Joshua Tree, consider getting a convertible! (the gas mileage was pretty horrible though so keep that in mind hahah). 

1VaBlue1

July 22nd, 2023 at 8:43 AM ^

BTW, the river Washington crossed through the night, on Christmas Eve 1776, to attack Trenton, NJ, was the Delaware River - not the Potomac.  You probably also think he attacked British troops, too, don't you?  The troops that were attacked were Hessian, not British.

For someone so smart, having worked his own way through college from poverty to being (apparently) amazingly rich enough to travel the entire country every year actually seeing America, that was an excruciatingly stupid comment.  Perhaps you should go spend a few days in Trenton looking over the crossing site and the actual location attacked...

Amazinblu

July 22nd, 2023 at 9:35 AM ^

One’s glass is.. half empty or half full..  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

This thread is going in a few different directions.  One is about education and opportunity.  It seems that immigrants to our country - who didn’t know the English language - may have had a limited / interrupted education - became naturalized citizens - worked hard - and, instilled a work ethic in their children - found a way to advance.  So, first generation children could go to college and earn a degree - eventually, passing it on to their children.

College costs have, IMO, skyrocketed - but, going to the best “in-state”, public school - is often the most cost effective path to an undergraduate degree.  And - the more challenging one’s field of study, the greater the opportunity for growth, advancement, etc..

MGoOhNo

July 22nd, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^

College costs have skyrocketed in large part because the US uses government insured debt to pay for college instead of grants in aid. When students are allowed to borrow increasing amounts of cash demanded by ivory tower types leading to institutional financial bloat instead of said institution having to limit costs and expenses to what's available from grants in aid you get cost of education increasing at significant multiples of inflation generally. 

SalvatoreQuattro

July 22nd, 2023 at 10:29 AM ^

Every country’s history is littered with atrocities. Few actually acknowledge them much less discuss them,
 

It would be nice to focus on the positives of the US while simultaneously acknowledging/discussing it’s negatives. Apparently that is impossible for many contemporary Americans.

MGoOhNo

July 22nd, 2023 at 11:06 AM ^

I'm so tired of this thinking. When you're celebrating your anniversary or a birthday for your kids do you simultaneously take a moment to memorialize the that big fight you had once with your partner or that time your kid snuck out and crashed the car? My guess is you and most people don't. SELECTIVE OUTRAGE.

RedRum

July 22nd, 2023 at 1:03 PM ^

Not going to pretend I know everything about the post that you responded to. My interpretation is that one: history is the autobiography of a mad man.  Two: all arguments about America get refined with a lager historical lens. Three: if you take a larger lens, the current of the BS gets put into a different perspective. 

Wendyk5

July 22nd, 2023 at 4:25 PM ^

I think there are a lot of people who get triggered when someone says something bad about America and immediately assume that if something good isn’t acknowledged at the same time, they must not think there’s anything good about America. I disagree with that. There’s a lot of gray there and i think most people fall into that area. They love their country but have complaints. There’s nothing wrong with that. There may even be times they don’t love their country but isn’t that what the Constitution encouraged— this country belongs to the people and we can change things we’re unhappy with? 

Wendyk5

July 22nd, 2023 at 10:34 AM ^

I think you have a point, but I see it as a commercialization issue more than anything else. Our history is accessible in so many ways and I think if our country has gone astray, it's that we always have to have merch. Does there always need to be a gift shop? Maybe our history deserves to be revered, not commodified. 

Clarence Boddicker

July 22nd, 2023 at 4:22 PM ^

Yeah, this is my perspective. That it's going to be cheesy bullshit that will prove useful for selling toys, trinkets, and t-shirts, and won't come close to acknowledging the complexity of American history because of that. Personally, the Americans I celebrate are not the founding fathers--my heroes are people like John Brown, Frederick Douglass, Eugene Debs, Susan B. Anthony, Martin Luther King, and Cesar Chavez because they fought to create an open, equitable America that is worthy of celebrating.

Plus, former Disney Imagineers created an Americana-themed park in the 60s in my hometown, the Boogie Down Bronx (!), and, from what my mom told me, it was mostly silly ill-conceived nonsense and the rides sucked to boot.

Behold the splendor of Freedomland USA!

 

Wendyk5

July 22nd, 2023 at 6:45 PM ^

I don't know how old you are but I think of Schoolhouse Rock and how it was a great supplement to what I was learning in grade school about American history, or at least a tiny piece of it (grammar as well). But I don't think this is going to be that. It's going to be a loud, chest-thumping commercialized venture that won't represent America in a way that might offend its constituents. That seems to be very important right now to a lot of people. 

Clarence Boddicker

July 22nd, 2023 at 7:12 PM ^

I'm 56. I loved Schoolhouse Rock and still do! I love to show my (college age) students "Conjunction Junction" because 1. It's educational 2. It's so much fun.

I'm thinking it'll be a Disnified Colonial Williamsburg type feel-good history. Like soda--it tastes good, sure, but sugar calories are ultimately bad for you. Really really bad for you.

GoBlueTal

July 22nd, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^

"Maybe I'm underestimating the South but why on earth would anyone want to visit this place? For one, you could just actually tour AMERICA if you're already here AND how the fuck do you talk about the American story without acknowledging how deeply fucked our history is? "

I'm just spit-balling here, but bear with me --  because you won't be there?  Because there are people who disagree with your opinion about America's history?  No, they're not ignorant, nor bigoted, nor less open than you, nor does their .  They. Just. Disagree.  

If one wants to find crappy stuff in the background of an individual or a group (be it country or culture or whatever) - they'll find it.  Every country everywhere has had slavery in it's past.  Every culture everywhere has had injustice, prejudice, and exploitation.  Sometimes, it's worth exploring the successes - not just dwell in the mistakes.  People who just sit and wallow in crapulence - WE GET THEM MENTAL HELP.  If the people in a given culture just believe their culture and their history is only "deeply fucked" without ever looking around and remembering that we have some wins - we should get them help... 

We were the first country to seriously consider outlawing slavery.  Ok, it took some time to get there, but you don't cure depression with one visit to a therapist...  and btw - in historical context it was a blink of an eye.  Humans have been flying longer than it took us to get our shit together about slavery.  (Ok, admittedly it took less time to go from Kitty Hawk to the Moon than it took to go from Independence Hall to the 14th Amendment, but I'll give us credit for learning faster :) ) 
We were the first country to codify into the very bedrock of our nation the concept that you can call our country, "deeply fucked" without pausing to wonder if you're going to disappear in the middle of the night never to be seen again. 
The world ushered in after WW2 which is largely shaped by western culture has seen the greatest improvement of human welfare and living quality for all of humanity ever.  Full stop ever.  It's got a long way to go before poverty is gone, and there's a lot more work to do - but you can't make improvements without moving forward.  

So, yeah - because people don't want to spend a day delving into your mental problems :)   That's why.  

BlueWolverine02

July 22nd, 2023 at 12:44 PM ^

Politics aside, I view this as a cedar point for the heartland.   Just not sure the heartland has the population to support this like the great lakes region does with Cedar Point.