OT: Cleveland Indians to retire Chief Wahoo logo
It was just announced that Cleveland will be retiring the Chief Wahoo logo starting in 2019. Always an interesting topic of debate, especially with Dan Snyder seeming so unwilling to bend on a mascot/name that seems even more offensive than Cleveland's.
Since they're a division rival of Detroit's, we see them quite a bit each season, and it defintely seems that they've already been de-emphasizing Chief Wahoo in recent years, with the block 'C' logo becoming more prominent on their caps and uniforms.
Thought this might be of interest to some of the baseball fans on the board.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/baseball/cleveland-indians-chief-wahoo-logo.html
January 29th, 2018 at 3:39 PM ^
"more of an honor than anything"
what?? seriously?
January 29th, 2018 at 3:39 PM ^
"more of an honor than anything"
what?? seriously?
January 29th, 2018 at 4:00 PM ^
As a person of color whose ancestors were subjugated, exploited, discriminated against, and often murdered by white oppressors, I sure do love it when the descendants of those white oppressors tell me how I should and should not feel about symbols, nomenclature, and imagery that normalize and white-wash the sins of the past and continue to cast us in a sub-human light!
January 30th, 2018 at 6:10 AM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 3:41 PM ^
Your subject line acknowledges your argument is bad faith.
I get that you want to go on some rants about PC culture or whatever but if you can't see how Indians(still not from or in India)/Chief Wahoo/fans wearing redface to games aren't the same thing as the Celtics then I don't know what to tell you.
January 29th, 2018 at 4:25 PM ^
In an attempt at a conversely good faith argument, here's why the Celtics, Fighting Irish, etc mascots and nicknames are nowhere as demeaning as Chief Wahoo, the Washington Redskin, etc. And yes, the term is demeaning, not offensive.
Celtics, Fighting Irish, etc are self-designated monikers. By that I mean that the name came from the founders' self image. Irish Catholics founded Notre Dame and created that logo to represent themselves. The Celtics were created in a city populated heavily by Irish immigrants who have long been vociferous supporters of the team.
On the other hand, the Cleveland Indians were not created by native Americans, and neither were the Washington Redskins. The imagery and nomenclature associated with them was generated due in large part to racist and derogatory stereotypes.
You're allowed to lampoon yourself as much as you'd like. But you can't demean others and accuse them of being wrongfully offended.
January 29th, 2018 at 4:44 PM ^
very well put
January 29th, 2018 at 6:20 PM ^
Irish Catholics founded Notre Dame and created that logo to represent themselves.
Actually the school was founded by French priests (hence the name) but its football team was indeed dominated by players of Irish heritage, leading to the nickname.
January 29th, 2018 at 11:34 PM ^
January 30th, 2018 at 6:14 AM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 3:28 PM ^
Yeah, won't anyone think of the meat packers and their legacy!
January 29th, 2018 at 5:40 PM ^
12 or 13 years old. Otherwise you're an adult drawing an equivalency between the experience of a person who works in a brewery and an entire culture who's land was stolen and that was nearly annihilated.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:57 PM ^
That was the name of Cleveland's original National League team. In 1899 they set a record for losses!
January 29th, 2018 at 2:18 PM ^
Honestly I never got the distain of it. I'm mostly Italian. If I had a baseball team named after "me" (say, the Cleveland Italians) and even the mascot was some greasy dude eating a pizza I'd be cool with it.
Long story short, what's the big deal - it's not derogitory in any way so I guess I just don't get it. Now if it was the Cleveland "fire water" Indians... that's a different story.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:18 PM ^
Have you actually looked at the logo? Serious question.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:38 PM ^
There is actual discussion amoung some hard-liners about bringing the original Chief Wahoo back. Something tells me that won't go well....
January 29th, 2018 at 3:28 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 3:57 PM ^
True story.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:42 PM ^
Lighten up, Francis. Yes I have. Just don't think it's that big of a deal and I seriously doubt any Native Americans are really up in arms about it. But hey, PC world we live in so, here we are
January 29th, 2018 at 3:14 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 3:27 PM ^
Except that the only exposure the majority of this country gets to Native Americans, is the offensive stereotypes and caricatures used to portray Native Americans through the sports teams/logos, and in movies/TV. Which as a whole contribute to dehumanizing them, and ignoring the fact they too live in the present and aren't the loin cloth/headress wearing, tomahawk throwing people that these portrayals are. So when they try to address the centuries long injustice they have experienced; these negative portrayals actuallly greatly affect the many issues plaguing them because the support they need is tied to the ability to see them as people deserving of support.
January 29th, 2018 at 3:33 PM ^
Well, good to know you put absolutely no effort into figuring out if people actually care about this logo, since the most basic of searches would have turned up a pretty significant backlash.
I get you, noted Italian and grease aficionado, not caring, but clearly others who are actually affected do.
January 29th, 2018 at 5:14 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 6:23 PM ^
I also read an article.
January 29th, 2018 at 6:41 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 2:34 PM ^
If a huge percentage of Italian-Americans were still, to this very day, living on land used to forcibly relocate them, living in crushing poverty, with overwhelming drug and alcohol and crime rates, you might feel differently?
January 29th, 2018 at 2:44 PM ^
Must be your "serious" day on here eh?
January 29th, 2018 at 2:54 PM ^
Ewwwww, God, you're right. I need to switch back to douche mode ASAP! Thanks man, I needed that slap...
January 29th, 2018 at 3:03 PM ^
Full disclosure, I enjoy most of your posts and think they're pretty entertaining. However, they are usually of a jovial manner/tone so you coming "out of the woodwork" if you will, on your high horse (sorry, couldn't help that one) was a bit surprising on this topic.
January 29th, 2018 at 5:45 PM ^
Be Italian Americans.... They'd be Italians forced to relocate to a relatively infertile and remote portion of Italy.
January 29th, 2018 at 5:51 PM ^
After foreign diseases killed off 75-90% of their original population.
January 29th, 2018 at 7:30 PM ^
New Jersey.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:38 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 2:51 PM ^
There isn't really a consensus about that, actually. Some prefer one term or the other. In general though, most identify primarily with their specific nation.
January 29th, 2018 at 3:35 PM ^
I knew some Native Americans in college who encouraged me to call them Indians. But I referred to Indians as Native Americans when I was at school so as not to offend my mostly white (and well meaning) classmates.
And, yes, I think you can't go wrong referring to the specific tribe if you know it.
January 29th, 2018 at 11:16 PM ^
It could also be because the “Americans” part of "Native American" is itself a colonizing term, forced upon them, when they were here first. "Indians" is the lesser of two evils, or, at least "Indians" preserves their otherness, while “Native Americans” might feel too assimilating and erasing towards what they feel they don’t belong to, or, even want to belong to.
Given a choice between only two options, isn't necessarily much of a choice.
January 29th, 2018 at 3:10 PM ^
So they should rename the team the Cleveland Native Americans?
/s
January 29th, 2018 at 2:41 PM ^
January 29th, 2018 at 3:21 PM ^
Theres a team called the Fighting Irish and no one gives a shit
Im not necessarily agreeing with his argument from equivalency, but your suggestion that Italians would be offended en masse if Cleveland changed their team name to the Cleveland Italians is almost certainly wrong.
January 29th, 2018 at 3:29 PM ^
I'd posit that using the name Italians is not the equivalent of using the name Indians.
January 29th, 2018 at 10:28 PM ^
Good thing I already said I wasnt agreeing that they are equivalent in the short post to which you are reponding.
Reading is fundamental.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:52 PM ^
If they were the Cleveland Paisans or Gambinos and had a mafia themed logo you might be a little offended. THe ITalian Anti-Defamation League wouldn't be psyched about it.
January 29th, 2018 at 6:26 PM ^
And imagine if the team's owners and most of its fans were not of Italian ancestry, and during games would chant pretend "Italian" cheers in the stands.
January 29th, 2018 at 2:59 PM ^
Italians aren't currently the subject of discrimination. If American Indians were even close to on equal footing with the general public right now, this might not be as big an issue.
January 29th, 2018 at 3:36 PM ^
FFS! Why'd you post that? Now, no matter what I do, I can't unsee it!
January 29th, 2018 at 2:18 PM ^
Also, never forget...
January 29th, 2018 at 2:29 PM ^