OT: Career advice for 30-something brother-in-law who dropped out of LSA?
Youngest sister got pregnant during undergrad and ended up marrying the father. She plowed through undergrad and medical school, he's been a stay-at-home father to their children. Kids are now all in school and he's jonesing to get some kind of career going. But I can tell he's insecure about what to do, re-entering college, major, ageism, empty resume, career arc over the next 30 years. He's a nice personable clever guy, he cherishes my sister and nieces, so it's a real bummer he's unfulfilled professionally. We'll be spending time with them this weekend, what advice would you give him? All I know about his undergrad tenure was his marks were iffy and he's got two years of random LSA core. Should he just focus on finishing a BA, any BA, quickly as possible or pursue a path that could take a little longer, that's more favorable to his unique non-traditional bio?
February 5th, 2019 at 2:50 PM ^
Get a real estate license
February 5th, 2019 at 2:55 PM ^
This is a good idea. No need for a BA. Just get out there and start selling. Takes some charisma and persistence, but so will any career if you're starting in your 30s.
Real estate exam (in MI) is a piece of cake. You honestly don't need to know anything, you'll get trained in a few weeks, and you'll be off and running. Plus, since his wife is a doctor, they probably have a decent network of people with some money to spend on a house. Always a plus.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:45 PM ^
Real Estate Agent is a great suggestion. As far as I can tell, the main barriers to success are needing to support yourself when getting started (not an issue here), having contacts (sounds like he does) and personal drive and motivation to succeed. And of course, the ever elusive sales skills.
He wouldn't need to pay a ton of money for a degree, he wouldn't be limited or looked down on for for his prior "lack of career" and if he works really hard, the potential for him to earn good money is definitely there.
February 5th, 2019 at 2:50 PM ^
There is a tremendous shortage of electricians, plumbers, etc...all types of tradespeople. For anyone who likes to work with their hands and see the results of their efforts, it can be a very rewarding and lucrative career path. Our son is starting college (mostly like Michigan!) in the fall, but there have been times I've thought about steering him to work in a trade. An electrician or plumber with good people and business skills can build up a big business in a hurry.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:11 PM ^
I generally agree with your comments related to the trade industries, but it does not makes sense for every person / family. Not to sound elitist, but there is something to the thought of having a profession that ones spouse can be proud of in her circle. Maybe she will be proud of him no matter what he does, but I've never met that woman (sorry OP, no offense to your sister). Just think about the couple attending a holiday party with her doctor colleagues and he is just starting a career in one of the trades. While I agree that he should be very proud of his hard work and efforts to bring home a pay check, but before he pursues this he needs to be sure that his wife will also be proud of his career. If she finds that embarrassing, it can really harm the marriage.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:34 PM ^
If she finds that embrrassing that's her problem.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:59 PM ^
And, she'd be a kinda large bitch as well
February 5th, 2019 at 5:02 PM ^
I generally agree with your comments related to the trade industries, but it does not makes sense for every person / family. Not to sound elitist, but there is something to the thought of having a profession that ones spouse can be proud of in her circle. Maybe she will be proud of him no matter what he does, but I've never met that woman (sorry OP, no offense to your sister). Just think about the couple attending a holiday party with her doctor colleagues and he is just starting a career in one of the trades. While I agree that he should be very proud of his hard work and efforts to bring home a pay check, but before he pursues this he needs to be sure that his wife will also be proud of his career. If she finds that embarrassing, it can really harm the marriage.
You hit the nail on the head. He's cognizant of optics. My sister is quite modest but I think BIL would prefer a career that has both some cachet and good income potential. As he describes it, their neighbors and friends are basically MD, MD, MD, hospital admin, attorney, MD, MD.
February 5th, 2019 at 2:51 PM ^
Why college? Mike Rowe (from Dirty Jobs) has been shedding light on the skill gap that has millions of well paying jobs unfilled. These jobs don't need a traditional college education. Mike Rowe's foundation even gives out scholarships to get training for these jobs.
February 5th, 2019 at 2:52 PM ^
Plastics
February 5th, 2019 at 3:51 PM ^
Either that or lasers.
February 5th, 2019 at 2:55 PM ^
It is important to note his passions and skills.
Generally a BA / BS could do him some good, but he can't just jump into any concentration. Accounting, finance, banking, etc. might serve him well. I would not recommend marketing as my wife did that and every job she was offered involved sales, which is not her forte. He would have to get top marks to get into analytical or design marketing fields.
I know someone in this thread mentioned the skilled trades. Depending on which trade he jumps into, he may have some problems. I worked in accounting for a home services company (HVAC, plumbing, electrical) in GR and I would recommend he avoid that industry as the hours can be absolutely awful (60+ per week) and benefits are typically mediocre. However, I have a friend who does electrical work for an automotive parts manufacturer and he loves it.
I want to be clear that I am not trying to bash anyone's profession / field of study. Everyone needs to make a living and many are passionate about what they do. I am simply speaking on my observations.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:03 PM ^
Lots of Accounting jobs if he is so inclined. He should take Accounting 101 to find out if it suits him. Go to a career counselor at whatever school he last attended and take some tests to see what suits him. Don't be a square peg in a round hole.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:14 PM ^
He last attended LSA at the University -- but they no longer live near Ann Arbor.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
Online classes are huge now, he could very well complete his degree with UM online. If not, I am sure a good amount of his credits would transfer.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:05 PM ^
Accounting is a horrible idea. I own a CPA firm. I wish my wife was a doctor so I could cut back to 50 hours a week. Even private industry is a rat race now.
If the guy is inclined towards numbers, a small bookkeeping practice would be a great idea though. No degree needed, take accounting 101 at a local CC, and if you keep expenses low and set up a repeatable service model, you can make a middle class living on a very flexible schedule.
February 5th, 2019 at 5:20 PM ^
Lots of accounting jobs that don't involve owning a practice. Work for someone else if it suits you.
Definitely take an Accounting 101 class at a CC to see if he likes it. It is a different language so many do not.
February 5th, 2019 at 2:57 PM ^
Learn to code. You can then work from home or wherever
February 5th, 2019 at 6:10 PM ^
Good idea for the short term, but not necessarily for a career. AI's will be doing most of the coding in a decade or less.
February 5th, 2019 at 7:39 PM ^
Spend 8 months learning SQL and data modeling, then make way more $$ than your MD wife.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:02 PM ^
At this point, don't go back to school just to go back. Don't spend a boatload of tuition dollars on something you're not 100% gung-ho for.
Sounds cliche, but he should really ask himself what he wants to do. Don't go get a degree just to get a degree. Get a degree in something that you want to be in. Hell, depending on what he wants to do he may not even need a degree. If he can sell, for example, he definitely doesn't need a degree for that. If he's more on the hands on technical side, has he considered trade school?
Far cheaper than a four year university, gets him hands-on experience in a proven, needed industry where he gets an extremely useful, marketable skillset, and I believe trade schools are only ~ 2 years long. After he completes an apprenticeship as, say, an electrician, he can make some great money pretty quickly.
Maybe also consider some volunteer work if for no other reason than to get out of the house. That is a great way to put yourself in an arena of doing something you're passionate about and really want to do. If it was economically feasible to pay a mortgage and support kids and still live a comfortable lifestyle, I'd work at dog shelters instead of doing what I do now.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^
What specifically in sales would be open to his age and lack of experience -- while also the chance to translate into something he can do for 30 years.
Accounting was my suggestion. Wife thinks nursing but he is not open to anything in health care -- that's an area he has an aversion to.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:03 PM ^
He could be my latex salesman- if he's got the chops
February 5th, 2019 at 3:05 PM ^
Electricians...... people are shocked when they find out their electrician didn't do a good job.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
My plumber did a real crappy job on my place. Flushed that money right down the toilet.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
Is he on the beefy side?
February 5th, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
how about the trades? the trades are desperate for guys . they are making some decent money with benefits. he'd be a stand out and maybe get his own builder's license after he's learned the ropes for a while. carpentry, electrical, HVAC, plumbing/heating, you name it. i have clients that would love to train a guy that had a decent head on his shoulders.
no more college, or he could go at night if he really felt the urge. i had a bro-in-law go to night school for over a decade to get his engineering degree - all while having kids. he has done just fine since then.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:48 PM ^
I've considered this too. The added benefit of course would be that you'd have a handyman living in your home that could fix things up at no charge.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:18 PM ^
I agree with others that he should only go back to school if he has a clear plan toward a professional degree (i.e. accounting, law, engineering). In non-professional careers employers may ask about education, but on day 1 at the job nobody cares where you went to school or what your grades were--they just want you to do the job well.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:19 PM ^
If he is in west Michigan, i can get him a job as a pipefitter/welder/plumber by the end of the week. We are one of the largest mechanical contractors in Michigan. I have worked here since i was 16 (family) and was a fitter/plumber in the field for 20 years before moving into the office on the design side.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:30 PM ^
That's very generous of you.
February 5th, 2019 at 10:14 PM ^
This is a little odd given the setting, but is there a way I could send you a message Hoek? My brother-in-law is looking at trade work in West Michigan, and we were even looking at jobs tonight. If not, no biggie, but I thought it might be worth it to take a shot in the dark...
February 6th, 2019 at 8:28 AM ^
You sure can. I don't want to share my work email on a public forum. Is there a way to private message on here so I can share my email with you?
February 5th, 2019 at 3:23 PM ^
tell him to go to software bootcamp -- he'll be able to land a BS entry level coding job and build from there
February 5th, 2019 at 3:25 PM ^
In regards to passions and professions, I had just quit my well-paying advertising job to take a minimum wage pastry assistant job at a pastry shop because it was my passion. The night before I started, I was watching a money show on CNN and the featured guy was talking about this exact thing. His bottom line: don't make your passion your profession. His reasoning: jobs can turn tasks into drudgery, and you don't want your passion to become drudgery. And two, more than likely, a passion isn't a big money maker. It can be, but chances are, it's not. Go make money, and enjoy your passion away from the job. I somewhat agree, although I think it's a waste of time to keep a job you hate or one that makes you unhappy. But it doesn't sound like you're aware of his passions. Maybe he's not either. Before going back to school, he should at least have a clear idea of the direction he wants to take.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:26 PM ^
If he has a technical bent - coders are hired all day long without degrees. He will need special training but not a degree.
As others have mentioned the trades are good - welders are in short supply
Accounting if he likes numbers and spreadsheets
Sales if he is personable and likes people - but it can be an awful job if you work for the wrong company or industry
He could also start an eBay or Etsy business on the side that still allows him time with the family while doing something he enjoys. I had a side eBay business just to pay for vacations. So buy/sell or make/sell.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:27 PM ^
How about a coding bootcamp?
February 5th, 2019 at 3:27 PM ^
He could start with community college to get his feet under him. Costs significantly less, good number of non-traditional aged students, and the instruction is often superior because the faculty are teachers not researchers or grad students.
Could simply try some classes in areas that interest him to see if they spark something.
CC’s are an oft-forgotten jewel of our education system.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:10 PM ^
This is a great idea with very little downside.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:30 PM ^
Ehhh I think at this point he should save money on a Bachelor's degree and put it towards the kids. I'm bearish on skilled trades as a career, and especially for him. I'd advise either to ease in with volunteering at non-profit organization or schools to build experience, or to go into sales, but the sales grind would be daunting for someone who's been out of work for a while.
If he's really ready for a challenge, I'd recommend signing up for boot camp style classes for coding/programming/developing. I know several people without coding experience, and a few without even a degree who've parlayed that into a great career making good money. He has to be into it though
February 5th, 2019 at 3:32 PM ^
There's still time to go back to school and get a degree in something he really enjoys. Over 5-15 years, with a good attitude and some humility, he may be able to catch up to people close to his age. After five years of early career slogging, even highly technical work becomes more about sense, communication and figuring out how to get everyone what they want simultaneously. He'd probably be good at all of that.
He could learn a trade, like lots of people already said
If he's interested, many people have become successful starting small real estate rental businesses that grow slow and steady into something bigger. It would certainly keep him busy.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:46 PM ^
Chuck:
Some options I can think of:
1. He could become an Enrolled Agent and work in taxes. Enrolled Agent is three exams, no college degree required. Not sure what the pay is for an EA, but taxes are a good field in terms of job security.
2. He could become a CPA, Here in Virginia there's a curriculum at the community college level geared towards sitting for the CPA exam. It does not require a Bachelor's.
3. Technology. If your brother-in-law is into tech, there's a lot of options that don't require a degree: coding, networking (engineer, security, etc), data analytics. He'd need to get some certifications (or a certificate for data analytics) but those can be done on your own without spending a lot.
4. Bookkeeping. Quickbooks is accounting software that many businesses use. You would need *some* background in accounting (a couple of classes) and then you just get Quickbooks-certified. There are lots of CPAs looking for bookkeepers at $20-30/hour. If you want higher pay, the CPA is the route to go.
5. CFP (Certified Financial Planner). If your brother-in-law is into finance, you can get a CFP via online or in-person programs in a couple of years. For example:
https://learningforlife.fsu.edu/certificate-in-financial-planning/
February 5th, 2019 at 4:01 PM ^
Just FYI on number 2. You need a Bachelor's at a minimum to sit for the CPA exam and 150 credit hours to be eligible for a CPA license in Virginia. Most likely that class at the community college is for those who have already completed the undergraduate and graduate requirements and want a targeted class to help study for the exam.
http://www.boa.virginia.gov/cpaexam/educationrequirements.shtml
February 6th, 2019 at 9:50 AM ^
Sione,
Good catch. There used to be a program at NOVA that was 30ish credits that would prepare you for the CPA exam. This must have been meant for folks with a Bachelor's to transition to a CPA career. Still, I think you'd need more Accounting credits than that program offered. Anyhow, I can't find the program anymore. There is a bookkeeping program, but as I said, all you really need for bookkeeping is a couple of accounting classes and software certification.
https://www.nvcc.edu/catalog/cat2018/academics/programs/programdetail.a…
February 6th, 2019 at 10:14 AM ^
Most people finish undergrad with ~120 credits or at least that's the minimum for many places. My guess is that school may have put a program in place for people that had undergraduate degrees in accounting so they had all of their target/core classes for certification but just needed to get 30 additional hours to get to the 150 and did not want to go to a full graduate program since that technically is not necessary.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:47 PM ^
It may not be an attractive option because there is a stigma that the profession is just for females, but a career as a registered nurse would give him a ton of options. An associates degree and passing of NCLEX gets you a license to practice as an RN. Then, a BSN can be completed almost entirely online, and most programs are designed to cater to the working individual.
There is a major nursing shortage across the country--he would never have an issue finding a job. Within the profession, the options are endless. An RN doesn't have to be restricted to working only in the hospital setting. Many pay periods require 6 12-hours shifts, providing 8 days off every two weeks, which would give him plenty of time to spend with his children.
I became an RN 3 years ago (one year after my wife and I had twins and I realized I couldn't support the family by cutting grass and pushing snow). I am not an overly caring person. I never had a desire to become a nurse. It was strictly a financial decision. Turns out, I'm very glad life took me down that road.
Like I said, it isn't for everyone, but it may certainly be something to look into. If he desires to continue his education further, MSN, FNP, or DNP are options he could pursue later in life as well.
February 5th, 2019 at 3:50 PM ^
It seems like everyone says "go into coding" these days.
As someone who has coded his whole life, I'm a little leery of that advice. Almost all of the really good coders I know have been passionate about computers for a long long time. It isn't something they picked up because they were having a mid-life crisis and wanted to make some money.
Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that someone smart can't pick up coding if they want to. I'm just saying that you should do something because you WANT to do it and actually like it at least a little bit, not because it is the job de jour. If you go into coding without a pretty big interest in computers and software, it probably isn't going to be a great fit.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:38 PM ^
I'm surprised so many people are mentioning coding.
One of my best friends works as an engineering manager and has several coders working for/under him. He says "never be a coder, unless you want to compete with people from India who are smarter than you and willing to work for 1/3 your pay."
February 5th, 2019 at 4:50 PM ^
As someone who has been in software development for a long time, the second part of that statement is true but the first, in my experience, isn't. Yes, large companies who don't value quality product will hire outsourcing firms because they take the near-sighted view that money saved today has absolutely no relationship to the inevitable outlay they'll do in a year or two when the code they bought turns out to be mediocre. But a lot of smaller shops are realizing that overseas developers aren't necessarily better than local developers and have the added annoyance of being hard to reach and work with on a set schedule.
Coding isn't for everyone, but if you're good at it and are in-person you'll be immensely valuable to a lot of employers.
February 5th, 2019 at 4:03 PM ^
Be a real estate agent