OT'ish: Michigan or Harvard?
Anyway, she was asking me my opinion on colleges -- specifically Harvard, which she aspires to attend. And even more specifically, whether I felt a Harvard education (and subsequent cost) would open more doors and create the foundation for a happier life than a Michigan education at roughly a third the cost.
I'm a homer, and I will always encourage anyone who asks to attend Michigan. It's my opinion we are afforded a truly unique opportunity nationally to have access to an elite public institution at in-state rates. But after dinner I was left thinking -- if she were fortunate enough to be accepted to Harvard one day, would I REALLY encourage her to attend Michigan? I'm not so sure.
Great problem to have obviously. But I'm wondering if a Michigan education at a third the cost > Harvard Degree?
Thoughts?
EDIT: I should also mention, for the sake of this discussion, that we are NOT a rich family by any measure except love :-)
If her choice is Michigan or Harvard, that's a great "problem" to have.
It's up to personal preference. A Harvard degree carries somewhat more prestige but also is more expensive and you lose some aspects of the college experience you get here, like big-time sports. If you're a Michigan resident, going to Harvard means being a lot farther away from your family, though the Boston area is pretty attractive for young adults.
One thing she should be aware of is that Ivy League admissions are pretty much a crapshoot - they have way too many qualified applicants for available spots - so you have to be careful about putting all your hopes and dreams into getting in one.
My wife and I are both Michigan grads and my son is a huge Michigan fan. We live out of state, so UM tuition is not much less than Harvard. My son got into both as well as many other very good schools. I, without hesitation, told him to go to Harvard as did my wife. It was his decision and he picked Harvard. I love UM, but I think that the number of doors opened by going to Harvard is significant. He starts at Harvard this fall.
She should go to Michigan so that later on, she isn't afraid to admit where she went to school.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2012/05/28/not_…
You can debate all of these factors forever--cost, connections made, opportunities afforded, grad school connections, "the name," etc. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that she choose the school at which she is the most comfortable. She's got to be happy with the place she'll spend 4 years, and has got to like her fellow students. At elite universities like those she's considering, she'll learn as much from her peers as in the classrooms. You have to choose the school that's the best fit. Period.
go with Michigan. I do not think the extra $20-$30K that you would have to dish out for Harvard is worth it. For graduate school, perhaps, but for undergrad, naahh. If she does well at Michigan, does well on her standardized exam (MCAT, LSAT, etc.), she will be extremely competitive as far as grad schools go, or the job market if that is her path. Admissions to graduate/professional programs/internships/fellowships these days are much more about the name/reputation of the undergrad institution. Now, a Michigan grad with a 3.2 is obviously not going to be as competitive as a Phi Beta Kappa from Princeton, but a Michigan grad with solid grades and test scores will be just as competitive, imo. I am of the opinion that for undergrad, you should save your money, go to you respective public university, work your tail off, do well, and you'll have no problem with grad schools. I know plenty of people that went to Cal States, the UCs (not including Berkeley and UCLA), U of Texas, UNC, UVA, that got in to some of the best med schools, law schools, Ph.D. programs, grad programs in architecture, MBAs. They just kicked ass in undergrad, did well on their respective tests, had some extra curriculars, and did just fine.
My daughter is 2. She is too young for me to suggest colleges yet. Being a person who owes everything he owns to his Michigan education, I can't help but wish that she grows up to attend my alma mater. However, I think that each situation is different, and academic ability is not the only factor one should consider when choosing a college. Upbringing / social sophistication / maturity all comes in play, and ultimately, the choice should take all these factor into account, not just the name / academics.
For example, I was from a mid-sized industrial city in Michigan, first person in my family to apply for college, attended a small Catholic high school, and did not receive any support from the family for college. In my scenario, Michigan made sense over Harvard or Princeton. I simply was not sophisticated or wealthy enough to hang with the Ivy-types.
Hopefully, my daughter, would not have to worry about all that, and in her scenario, Harvard or Princeton may make more sense over Michigan, if she is fortunate enough to gain acceptance into all 3.
I would be interested to know if there are Harvard grads that say they wish they would've gone elsewhere, Michigan specifically.
I have a friend that is a rising Junior at Harvard, and I have gotten the impression that the experience a student has at Harvard is what he or she makes of it. If you want a "traditional" American college experience at Harvard I'm sure you can party your butt off and graduate. That being said, I think at less rigorous schools you can study 100 hours a week and be miserable. To me, it pretty much depends on the individual, at least to a certain extent.
Posting for a friend who is too lazy to get an account.
"I went to undergrad at Michigan, and I'm now in a PhD program at Harvard, which involves me teaching undergrads.
Kinda seems like a lot of these comments are pure speculation, so let me weigh in.
The dumbest kids at Harvard are smarter than the dumbest kids at Michigan. The smartest kids at Harvard are not smarter than the smartest kids at Michigan. So yeah, the kids you meet at Harvard will on the whole be smarter and ultimately more successful than your peers at Michigan, but the latter is largely a result of the totally irrational value placed on a Harvard undergrad degree by people who just don't know any better.
I feel qualified to say this -- the quality of instruction is absolutely not better at Harvard, and in many cases, it's worse, given that faculty are under much greater research pressure and have much less incentive to pay attention to their undergrads.
If your daughter absolutely knows that she wants to go into finance or consulting, she should go to Harvard. If she has any other interests, she's probably better off avoiding the grade-grubbing hoop-jumping conformists that mostly populate Harvard.
If Harvard has taught me anything, it's that you can't underestimate how much college would absolutely suck without a good football or basketball team."
The dumbest kids at Harvard are smarter than the dumbest kids at Michigan. The smartest kids at Harvard are not smarter than the smartest kids at Michigan. So yeah, the kids you meet at Harvard will on the whole be smarter and ultimately more successful than your peers at Michigan, but the latter is largely a result of the totally irrational value placed on a Harvard undergrad degree by people who just don't know any better
I definitely believe this. I remember at orientation at U-M when they asked how many students scored a perfect 1600 on their SAT, and many hands went up. They then asked how many people had a 4.0 in high school, and even more hands went up. Because we have room to admit a lot more students, the average student here might be marginally less accomplished than the average Ivy Leaguer, but the cream of the crop here can stack up with anybody.
I guess it's a good problem to have.
Definitely schools like Harvard can open doors, but let's not forget that they can close some doors too. Just like there is a presumption in many circles that a Harvard grad is smarter than a UM grad, so too are there presumptions about snobbishness or potential job satisfaction.
On one of my job interviews, I was told why with my Big 10 degree (grad school Purdue), I wouldn't like the job. The interviewer spent the first 10 minutes listing off "problems" with the institution I was applying to. In a round about way, he was telling me I wouldn't get the job because they were convinced I would just use it as a stepping stone to something better.
Maybe it's just me but while Harvard may open doors from a financial perspective, most if not all those folks I have met who graduated from Harvard have been pompous a-holes. While I have met some like that from UM, it's in the minority. I guess if it all depends on what makes you happy. For me, I was accepted to both schools but I wanted to be part of the GO BLUE tradition and that meant more to me than financial happiness. I can't remember the last time I saw a Harvard grad wearing their Crimson around town and saying Go Crimson to a fellow alum. Seriously, does money really bring happiness?
seriously, does money really bring happiness?
give me half a mill and I'll get back to you ASAP
your happiness is only worth "half a mill"? For me, I'd rather see UM win National Championships then get "half a mill". You are clearly not about being better like your tag line says.
Isn't the goal here what makes your childern happy? Selfish.
watched a lot of Michigan alums kick the snot out of Ivy League alums in NYC kickball leagues, so...
One of the hardest things to do is measure the true educational value of a university or college. The vast majority of all college rankings are heavily skewed in one form or fashion by differences in input. That is, if much higher quality students go to a college and then have more successful careers afterwards, is it because of the added value bestowed by their education or because they were better walking in the door? There is no doubt that Harvard has incoming students with higher academic achievement coming in the door than Michigan does. Comparing ROI, or number of famous alumni, or other such metrics between the two schools becomes very difficult. The closest test you could perform would be to randomly assign identical twins to various schools and then look at their careers 40 years later. You would still need a very large N (100+) between the schools to deal with all the other factors (choice of major, life events, etc.) but it might give some way to consider the true educational value of the school.