OT'ish: Michigan or Harvard?

Sister was choosing between NYU and Michigan.  I laid out everything I loved about Ann Arbor, but could I blame her for choosing NYU?  Absolutely not.

Granted...either way, I am not footing the bill.

A hard decision. Harvard has slightly better academics, but Michigan has a better atmosphere (Sporting events, extracurriculars, etc) and is much cheaper. Your looking at 260k for harvard vs michigan which will be about 100k for 4 years assuming no sholarship( if she were to get a scholarship then that number would be even less.) If money is no issue at all then there would probably be a edge to harvard, however, if money is a thing to even somewhat think about then Michigan is the place to go. We are extremely fortunate to have a great in state school(even more fortunate that this great in state school is also great at sports!).

Harvard might open up more doors, but I wouldn't trade 4 years at Michigan for anything.  If you work hard doors will fly open for someone with a Michigan degree.  And I wouldn't trade the "college experience" at Michigan for anything. 

I chose Michigan (in-state, with a large scholarship both times) over Harvard for both undergraduate and law schools. I'm not out of law school yet, but so far in life the undergrad choice was a great one. I think feel is one of the most important things you can take into account when choosing a place to go to school. So much of life is about the relationships you develop, and you can learn much better in an environment where you are comfortable and feel supported. Now, she might definitely get that at Harvard; I thought it was really snooty and annoying, but that's a personal opinion.

My oldest daughter was in a similar situation.  She started kindergarten early,at four then skipped 3rd grade, graduated from high school and started at MSU (that's another story) at 16. As your daughter gets into high school courses, encourage her to do AP classes.  My daughter started college with 50  college credits.  She could have graduated in 3 years, but she had a full ride scholarship for 4 years (National Merit Scholar), and we encouraged her to take her time.  Part of me wanted to push her for selfish vicarious reasons, but she was able to mix in a few fluff classes along the way, and that worked out for her.

Part of the decision needs to be based on what discipline she wants to go into.  Yes, the Harvard name opens lots of doors, etc, but in a discipline like engineering, several state schools rank higher than most of the Ivies, including Harvard.

Cost is another factor.  As someone else mentioned, schools like Harvard don't need to give out merit based scholarships, so no matter how high her grades or test scores, it's not going to make much of a difference.  If you're like me, and you make too much to qualify for government grants but too little to just pay out of pocket, cost should be a factor.  Also, if she is as smart as she sounds, is she really going to just stop with a bachelor's degree? A UM bachelor's and Harvard master's will save tens of thousands of dollars.

My daughter was accepted into 7 of the 8 grad schools she applied for (UPenn, I think was the one she didn't get into).  She turned down Cornell and several other highly rated schools, now has a master's in ChemE and is on pace to get her PhD by age 25.

 

had so much money in scholarships that they were actually paid to go to Michigan.   Michigan  + profitable scholarship money > Harvard.  At the end of the day, two went to Harvard and Yale for grad school anyway.  The other one went to Michigan law.  

I've always thought that if you're a high school kid who grew up the State of Michigan and you get into UofM, there are no more than 5 or 6 schools in the country that it would make sense turning down UofM for. However, Harvard is definitely one of those schools. Hate to say it, but if she has the opportunity to go to Harvard, she should take it. Maybe she can come back to Michigan for medical school or her PhD or whatever. That way she can have the best of both worlds.

Getting into colleges like Michigan and Harvard is a bitch these days.  Michigan had 46,000+ applications for 4,000 spots.  I'm sure Harvard is much more difficult.  My kids are smart but don't go to a private High School that is a feeder to top colleges.  Much like football recruiting, you just never know what is going to happen.

I think from a name perspective Harvard is superior.  It's interesting to see all of the angst on site like college confidential about schools and ratings.  For christ sake some components of life should not simply be about achievement.  I'd advise my 12 year old daughter to give some thought about what is important to her and talk about life balance.  Some people thrive on the challenge of being the best and some are consumed by it.

Mamby pamby words from a Ross grad no less.

I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughtful opinions. 

 

I went to Michigan and graduated from the undergrad business program and had access to the best firms in the world for a position out of school. I think certain programs (business and engineering for example) at Umich allow you to do whatever you want. 

A few thoughts about schools:

1. My buddy from high school is a genius (perfect ACT, LSAT, and GMAT score).  He went to Harvard twice and currently excels at a world class consulting firm (read McKinsey, BCG, etc.).

a.) When he started at Harvard for undergrad, I asked him what it was like studying with the smartest kids in the world. He said he didn't know; his roommates just cheated off him. 

b.) My thought is that a third of kids at fancy schools belong to be there, a third are rich kids (legacies) that are smart enough to make it work, and a third are rich kids who can buy their way in

c.) The smartest kids / most successful people understand that it's just a house of cards and don't need a piece of paper to achieve their goals. I'd love to see the number of Fortune 1000 companies started by drop-outs of fancy schools. 

 

Anyways, I always marveled how 18 / 19 year old kids thought their lives were over when they didn't get into the business school or when seniors didn't get into the law / medical program they had their hearts set on. If a small hiccup like a rejection from an academic program will derail your life---you wouldn't achieve your goals anyway. 

 

Good luck, sounds like she doesn't need it. For my kids, I would stress going to a university where you can get really drunk before sporting events and also have world class academics. Very few places can have both, which is why I feel Michigan is so special. 

While Harvard for undergrad is the gold standard, if she plans on getting an advanced degree, I believe that choice is far more important.  That said, Harvard can certainly help her get into the best institutions for advanced degrees (places like, well, Harvard).

Also, some of this depends on her desired career/major.  If she wants to be attorney or politician, finishing at Harvard Law is tought to beat.  Same goes for medical.

But for business?  An undergrad at Michigan with an MBA from Harvard, IMO, is more powerful than an undergrad from Harvard with a Michigan MBA.  Of course, if your daughter is in either of those situations, she's going to be more than fine.  And yes, the Harvard undergrad + Harvard MBA is probably the best, but not significantly better than U-M undergrad + Harvard MBA.

Also, it's not like Michigan is chopped liver.  We are top ten in virtually every major category, and our grad programs provide plenty of open doors...but not as many as Harvard.

...getting a college experience. I went to Ross full time MBA. There were many who had attended the prestigious Ivys for undergrad (including Harvard). I think most would say they enjoyed their Michigan experience better since they were able to have a true "American college experience". I would also say that most are more loyal to Michigan than their undergrad school. I think that says a lot.

without someone posting this pic...?

While Harvard may open doors, it all depends on the major too. An elementary education degree will not be beneficial by any means from a Harvard as opposed to any other university. I'm a firm believer that although a degree from an institution can vary the opportunities you're offered at the start of your career, ambition will far exceed the weight of any degree. My largest criteria factor that led me to choose Nebraska was the fact I could still get a quality education, but through scholarship and financial aid I will not need to take out student loans. Graduating debt free was a big deal to me. All things said, my best friend is attending Penn and the opportunities offered by alumni to students and recent graduates far accelerates his ascension in ranks over a standard degree.

Do NOT assume that Harvard is more expensive. They have the greatest financial aid program in the world, including meeting 100% of financial need with scholarship NOT loan. Depending on your income it could be cheaper to go to Harvard.

Michigan is awesome but a completely different type of experience than Harvard. I have never regretted my decision to attend.

I am actually the chair of the alumni interviewing committee for the area and would be happy to answer any questions you have if you mail bensmomma at gmail

Money is not an issue with Ivy League schools. It's really shocking to me that people don't realize how much financial aid Ivy League schools give out. They get their money from billionaire graduates donating, not tuition, and they are happy to let people attend for very little. The only people who pay the sticker price are millionaires and legacies. As someone who looked at Ivy League schools in his college search last year, I was told lots about this by the schools themselves. 

Ivy League schools (especially the best ones, i.e. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc) give out need-based aid to 90% of students. Not need based like "fill out the FAFSA and if you're below the poverty line we can give you some loans," like actually fair, need based aid in the form of grants. At every school I visited I was told that my family should not expect to pay more than 10% of their yearly income on tuition. For most people, this is fairly comparable to in-state tuition at Michigan. If it's something you find yourself strongly considering down the line, talk to the schools about it! Trust me, money is the one factor these schools do not want holding back applicants.

For something like engineering Michigan is a much better option.  Also if she is planning on grad school (which she probably will considering how smart she is) raking up a lot of debt in undergrad should be avoided if possible.

So I guess there's not many College of Engineering folks around these boards. As an in-state kid there is no where else I would prefer to attend. For comparison's sake, I would find it incredibly hard to believe that MIT would have opened the door to research oppurtunities and job offers that were three times better than what I've gotten here. Yet the cost is three times as much. That coupled with the fact that Michigan is a lot more fun to attend than MIT really makes them easy to choose between for an in state kid. 

Out of state would probably be a toss up between Illinois and Georgia Tech, based on tuition. 

My brother is facing sort of the same situation next year, as he's starting to apply to colleges this summer. He's applying to Penn (both my parents are alums), and I think Harvard, but also applying to big state schools like Michigan, Texas, UNC, UVa, etc. He'd like to have the complete package for a school, like great academics, as well as great athletics, which only a handful of schools in America offer both simultaneously, Michigan obviously being one of them.

I hope he goes to Michigan. In fact, I think my whole family does. But I've told him before that if he gets into Harvard, he should go to Harvard. Michigan is a world-renowned institution, but Harvard, as far as academics are concerned, is just better. It will open more doors for you, and having the name of that school on your resume always gets you pushed to the top of the pile. Always. At the very least, you're getting an interview. 

Maybe as far as business school comparisons go, Ross stacks up just as well, if not better than Wharton, but overall, Harvard is the better academic option. But it really depends on what the kid wants. Because if they want big athletic events, school spirit and all the rah-rah that comes with it, you'd really have to stop and think about going to Harvard, because you won't get any of that unless you're an avid crew fan.

And I don't think most kids are.......

 

If she can go to Harvard she could probably go to Stanford. They've put themselves into a position to make this century their own.

Stanford is the academics of Harvard with the culture of the Pac 12.

 

One of the greatest learning experiences in life is deciding what you really want, as opposed to what other people want for you. So her figuring that out is key. I have two good high school friends who both went to Harvard. One loved it, and went on to Harvard Law School and is very successful today. The other, who was the valedictorian of our class and ridiculously smart, ended up transferring to Amherst after freshman year.  I don't know why she chose Harvard to begin with, but it wasn't the place for her, and certainly not because she couldn't hack it. So......this will be a great learning, maturing experience for your daughter! 

I chose Michigan over Columbia for undergraduate and am very happy with my choice. My best friend chose Columbia over Michigan (and Stanford) and he is very happy with his choice. I imagine that if either of us had gotten into Harvard we'd have gone there.

You go to Harvard dummy. They don't sell shirts in Cambridge that say Michigan the Harvard of the (mid)west!

You've got plenty of good observations about cost, reputation, networking, prestige already, so I won't expand on those.

A mega-university with ~43,000 students and ~27,000 undergrads is likely to be a bit overwhelming for even the savviest 16-year old. 

~20,000 students total and ~7,000 undergrads, not so much.

Michigan has as many freshmen as Harvard has undergrads.

Everything else being equal, I'd recommend Harvard for a 16-year old freshman for that reason alone.