December 31st, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^
I think there needs to be some ref discretion about the difference between a hit that is intentional and/or careless and a hit that is accidental or incidental targeting. It’s pretty easy to tell from most hits
December 31st, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
I cringe when I see guys kicked out for targeting and it appears that it happened because the offensive player was falling or lowering his head/clearly no intent from the defender. I often say to my wife "That kid did not mean to hit there" in those instances.
That being said, I think that it creates too much of a gray area if you judge intent. The rule is for safety and I think that needs to be as black and white as possible.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
Agreed on the gray area problem. I think number one is teaching defenders to keep your head up when tackling. It’s hard to call targeting when you do that. If you had your head down like Wade did in the semifinal, that will be targeting no matter what
December 31st, 2019 at 10:53 AM ^
As someone that refs both high school and lower level college, I’m of the opinion that we need to get away from black and white rulings and be comfortable with living in the gray area. As officials we are trained to not only understand the rules but also the intent of the rules so why are we trying to push officials away from implementing the intent?
If you don’t think officials can judge intent on targeting you are out of your mind. Since we’re talking about the Ohio State hit, in my opinion, he led with the crown but his intent was not to target Lawrence. Should be a 15 yard penalty with an automatic first down. Conversely, the afternoon game had a targeting call where the defender made unnecessary contact with targeting and had malicious intent. That should remain a 15 yard penalty, automatic first down, and an ejection.
My point is, let officials officiate rather than force them to work in absolutes. It’s somewhat counterintuitive but I 100% believe it’s the proper course. Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s the direction that will be pursued.
December 31st, 2019 at 11:15 AM ^
This is EXACTLY what I believe.....
Player ducks down, a 15 yard penalty and first down. No ejection.
The targeting like in the LSU/Oklahoma game...ejection with it.
We are ejecting too many players in football for what are not dirty hits.
15 yard penalty still sends a message to "keep your eyes and head up" when tackling without the extreme measure of ejection.
I hope this is what they go to...
December 31st, 2019 at 11:46 AM ^
I coach HS football, so this comes from that perspective. Take it with a grain of salt if need be.
I appreciate your perspective as an official. However, I would have a huge problem if an official told me that there wasn't targeting because there is no intent, especially since there is no replay in HS ball, or most lower level college football as far as I know. Everybody is worried about when the hit wasn't intentionally targeting, like when the offensive player is going down, lowering his head, etc. I get the concern with that. It stinks for the defender.
In my opinion, targeting is most often called when the hit to the head is unintentional, but reckless. A reckless helmet to helmet hit is dangerous too, so I don't care for the unintentional argument as a reason to adjust the rule.
The game is dangerous and most likely always will be. But if we want to keep football, this penalty needs to be enforced and it needs to be a severe punishment. When it comes to safety, the penalties need to be in absolutes IMO.
December 31st, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
I get what you’re saying and I think we’re largely on the same page. My issue with targeting is not about the penalty itself and more about the punitive nature in regards to the ejection. I think targeting is, and should be, a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down irregardless of whether there was intent. I just think in order to be an additional ejection, intent has got to be a factor.
December 31st, 2019 at 12:27 PM ^
I see. I kind of agree, but don't think that just a 15 yard penalty is enough to take those hits out of the game. I know that they won't ever be completely eliminated, but a harsh penalty helps IMO. And I think officials have a difficult job as is, trying to decipher intent without replay seems almost impossible to me (though I admit I have never officiated).
December 31st, 2019 at 1:04 PM ^
Here’s another example involving a different rule. If a defensive end head slaps an opponent during his rush that’s a 15 yard penalty. However, if the official deems the contact to be intentional and egregious or it takes place after the whistle it can result in an ejection.
Ive never seen anyone propose that if a defensive end heads slaps an opponent during a swim move that they should be ejected. But if intent doesn't matter is the default, shouldn’t this player be ejected for contacting another player’s head with his hand?
December 31st, 2019 at 1:37 PM ^
Good example, but I would say this: are head slaps as prevalent as the head to head hits used to be? Are they as dangerous to the player? To me, targeting is about player safety and trying to eliminate some of the most dangerous plays in football.
December 31st, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^
Everyone knows spearing when it happens. Spearing, you’re kicked out of the game. Just make all of the stuff, the incidental just playing football stuff, that seems to kiss off college football fans and make it personal foul if you’re worried about the optics of taking safety out of the game.
December 31st, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^
I'm not worried about the "optics" of taking safety out of the game. I am worried about the safety of players. Intentional helmet to helmet or unintentional helmet to helmet because another player is reckless... it all makes the game more dangerous and doesn't have a place in football. The only way to eliminate as many of these types of hits as possible is to penalize it severely.
December 31st, 2019 at 1:14 PM ^
It’s tough to tell on this site but my reply wasn’t a direct reply to your post. What I’m saying is the caretakers of football will never take a rule out of the book that was put in for players safety in the wake of the CTE scare. I agree with you that guys that are running around and playing carelessly need to have consequences but kicking a guy out of a game is just too severe of a punishment for the fouls being committed. Spearing, you’re booted. 2 personal fouls from head to head, you’re booted.
December 31st, 2019 at 1:38 PM ^
No worries. I probably came across as being defensive, not my intent.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:43 PM ^
It’s the same gray area as roughing the kicker/ running into the kicker. When it happens it gives the official an option to give the lesser penalty. With any judgement call (and they are all judgment calls) you’re not going to agree with every one of them, but it would (seemingly) lower the number of ejections for questionable calls.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:40 AM ^
Yeah the game is so fast and the players are so quick now, the rules should reflect that. A guy will be coming in hard and think he's lined up for a clean hit but the ball carrier will make a slight move and it results in a head-to-head collision and the defender gets flagged.
The rule now is an automatic ejection, right? The one the other night seemed like it should've been a penalty but didn't really merit an ejection. College football should have a system similar to the tiers of technical fouls in basketball. If the guy was really coming in dirty and trying to hurt someone, then toss him out. If it was just reckless and he didn't get his head out of the way - make it 15 yards and get on with it.
The rules aren't exactly getting these hits out of the game but they definitely are making it more confusing.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
In your scenario, what difference would it make in terms of the penalty? Is one a 15 yard penalty (unintentional) and one an automatic ejection like it currently is now?
I ask because I have seen that response quite a bit...but my question is always..."okay, what if I get 5 accidental targetings in one game?" To me, that's reckless. The rule wasn't created to get rid of the intentional targeting hits...it was created to get rid of them all.
The unintentional variety are WAY more common. So you're not really teaching players anything other than to not be a dick and intentionally use your helmet as a weapon. But if I am not intentionally doing it, but repeatedly doing it...that's reckless and dangerous to myself and those that I keep (unintentionally) blasting with my helmet.
For some that's okay..."it's football" is what they say. For me personally, I think if you want to stop the behavior you have to eject them, just not one the first one if it's unintentional. Treat it like an unsportsmanlike and once you get 2...you're done. So it just takes it one more step.
Tl:dr? Go Blue!
December 31st, 2019 at 10:03 AM ^
Good points. Yes, I meant that it would be 15 yards in any case but the ejection would be left up to the officials. And you're right - that could result in some reckless behavior that could be hidden behind the benefit of the doubt. But - in a technical foul-type system, a player would be tossed after two, but the refs also could use their discretion and eject a player for a particularly egregious hit.
They could also make a rule for an in-game suspension maybe? With varying degrees of punishment - the full ejection + half we have now, or just the rest of the game, or one, two or three quarters.
I actually love the targeting rule but its a little annoying to see guys get ejected for plays that weren't intentional.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:06 AM ^
If the defender isn’t lowering his helmet on the hit and the ball carrier lowers his helmet right before impact then any incidental contact to the head should not be targeting.
Replay can easily tell if this is the case or not.
December 31st, 2019 at 6:31 PM ^
I couldn't agree more with you PRB! I would say that ejecting players hits that where the spot of impact is often determined in the last split second of a play and USUALLY not intentional/malicious is a bit extreme. The 15 yard penalty & auto 1st down should be enough of a deterrent for under most circumstances. Egregious & intentional contact, while a bit more subjective, should still be an ejection and/or a suspension. How can you expect defensive players eliminate all helmet to helmet contact when often it is the offensive player who initiates said contact by lowering their helmet first? Also isn't considered targeting when making contact with the crown of the helmet? If I am not mistaken, don't ball carriers/RB's make some sort of contact with their crowns on most plays? Isn't a stiff arm a hand on the helmet/face/above the neck? When do contact rules begin to apply to offensive players? I get the rules these days are skewed towards the offenses to promote scoring and/or for safety but when does the safety of the defensive player become a priority as well?
So to answer the OP, my opinion is to give officials a little more leeway in game and perhaps review it after the game to determine the seriousness of the punishment or expand it to include the safety & well being of all the players.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:31 AM ^
Not a fan of opinions in the OP...so here is what I would do...
I would treat it like a personal foul unsportsmanlike penalty. 15 yards and if you get 2... you're ejected. Pretty simple.
If you get one and it's deemed intentional you can be ejected just like if you threw a punch. It would need to be at that level and it would be treated like fighting.
The only other difference that I would make is that if you're ejected for ANYTHING, you sit the rest of the half and the next one. Just like the current targeting rule.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:11 AM ^
Agreed, I think it should be more like basketball with a flagrant 1/2 type call. And the egregious ones should have a bigger penalty than 3-4 quarters of football (like that piece of shit DB on Oklahoma during the Peach Bowl who should get a multiple game suspension for such a dangerous, cheap shot). The officials on the field and in the booth should have the ability to call no foul, a 15 yd penalty (flagrant 1), or a 15 yd penalty and ejection (flagrant 2)
December 31st, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
Actually, leave it as is. What’s sports without debate and this rule, like “make a football play” after a catch/non-catch, provides lots of debate.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^
Personally, I choose not to adjust it. The rule is in place for safety, and I think the officials have gotten much better at calling it correctly. Are there still mistakes made in the call? Of course, but that is with every penalty. If we want football to stay for a long time, we need penalties that are meant to protect a player's head.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:40 AM ^
There needs to be an incidental contact consideration. I was watching one of the minor bowl games last week, and a QB ran about 5 yards, and then lowered his head into a defender who was pretty much looking the other way. There was helmet to helmet contact, and the defender was tossed, when it was completely the QB running into him, not the other way around.
I definitely feel like half the targeting calls I see are just standard tackles, but the player with the ball lowers their head, resulting in helmet to helmet.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:58 AM ^
I've see a few plays where ballcarriers draw late hits by slowing up just as they are going out of bounds and over-selling their fall into the sideline wash. It's competition and players will always seek advantages.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^
Yeah, that instance is one of the greyest areas in the rules. The number of times QBs have begun to look like they're cutting up field, and then step out of bounds, and get a late hit call is very high.
I think the difference is late hit calls don't require 5 minutes of replays and reviews, or get players removed from the game, the way targeting does. If you're going to go through all that slow motion review, might as well be able to tell when someone is gaming the rule.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:40 AM ^
Holy shit. I just read Dobbins rushed for over 2000 yards this season.
Michigan backs are happy with 500.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:52 AM ^
Holy shit. Another OSU cave troll.
December 31st, 2019 at 11:49 AM ^
Yep, his posting history betrays him. To the Troll Cave!
December 31st, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^
Hm. I was genuinely surprised to read Dobbins stats, as I only watched them play vs Michigan and Clemson.
Did Charbonnet break 300 yards this year?
December 31st, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^
Ok Charbonnet had 600, pretty solid for a Michigan back.
I hate to say this..but did anyone catch Fields stats this year?? The Clemson announcers mentioned he had one (1) interception all year..
December 31st, 2019 at 10:04 AM ^
You can’t read
December 31st, 2019 at 9:49 AM ^
That Illinois play was garbage...the kid lead with his shoulder, can be seen visibly holding up for a split second and never dipped his head or used the crown the contact was more with the face masks.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:57 AM ^
Agreed - the "defenseless" player made a football move to protect the football from an excellent form tackle. The head-to-head contact was minor and inadvertent. It was a terrible targeting call.
December 31st, 2019 at 9:53 AM ^
We should allow officials to get better at calling games in real time.
I watch old football games on youtube. Don't be jealous. It's amazing to see the hits that were allowed as recent as ten years ago - helmets, spearing, late hits to QB's and out of bounds, WR's who get lit up on crossing routes.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:04 AM ^
Yeah. They need to review in real time more.
The replay rules were put in to be able to reverse the truly egregiously missed calls. Instead, we now use it to measure every play to the millimeter.
That catch/fumble in the OSU/Clemson game was a perfect example of it. If you watch his steps in ultra slo-mo, sure, maybe he took a couple steps. In real time, no fuckin' way was that a catch.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^
I would like to make it against the rules for Kiffin to target Partridge.
December 31st, 2019 at 1:33 PM ^
Ha! Beat me to it.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:07 AM ^
1. Allow the refs more discussion when throwing the flag.
2. Rather than eject the player, the penalties are tracked and compound through the course of the season. First penalty of the season, 15 yards. Second, 15 yards and four quarter ejection. Third, 15 yards and eight quarter ejection. Fourth, disqualified for the remainder of the season. The reason for this is one targeting penalty can genuinely be accidental. But a pattern of targeting demonstrates that the player is unsafe and should not be on the field.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:12 AM ^
The rule in-and-of-itself is somewhat reasonable. The problem is that the penalty is ridiculously severe. Consider that a player can intentionally take a swing at another player's head (or other region of note) and have less punishment than someone that makes inadvertent contact that qualifies as "targeting" - and gets to stay in the game.
The threshold of conduct to expel a player from the game should be much higher.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:17 AM ^
Leave it as is. If you truly want to make the sport safer, you need to get all these hits out whether they are intentional or not. Creating a judgement call would make this for worse and far more controversial. I think in the last year or two they have done a very good making these calls.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:17 AM ^
After Earnhardt died, NASCAR came up with a helmet/neck restraining brace that all the drivers have to wear. Could you imagine all football players with a whiplash collar? Or maybe just an electronic level on top of the helmet? Past 30 degrees, 15 yard penalty. Past 45 degrees, ejection...
December 31st, 2019 at 10:18 AM ^
Idk, but have you heard Kiffin is targeting Partridge?
December 31st, 2019 at 10:22 AM ^
I think it's a great rule. Leave it as it is. Safety is very important.
Teach the replay officials not to be dingbats. That's what you change.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:28 AM ^
Ejection is not warranted. Also sitting out the first half of the next game is stupid.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:36 AM ^
I don't think just a 15 yard penalty is enough to eliminate those types of hits, which is the goal of the penalty
December 31st, 2019 at 1:17 PM ^
Then make it a 30yrd penalty or maybe involve points (deducted or awarded). Kicking out a player for something that may have been purely unintentional is absurd.
December 31st, 2019 at 10:46 AM ^
The NFL has it right ... way less complex / judgement oriented. A good form tackle in the NCAA can be called targeting if a player is "defenseless". That is basically wrong. That OSU targeting call was bullshit ... great form tackle by the rusher - shoulder targeted for the ball. The "defenseless" player made a protective move by turning and ducking to protect the football. If that is targeting, then we need to go to touch football on QBs.
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/9/17492612/ncaa-targeting-rule-nfl-comparison
December 31st, 2019 at 10:58 AM ^
If it looks like a dickhead move, kick them out. If not, they stay but maybe still a 15 yard penalty.