Lloyd Carr going 29-6 vs Wisconsin, PSU and MSU appreciation
October 21st, 2019 at 12:23 AM ^
At least Harbaugh can beat unranked teams.
Unlike Lloyd who lost to fucking APPALACHIAN STATE with a loaded team.
October 21st, 2019 at 7:26 AM ^
To be fair, that 2007 team was a complete shell of what M was - like an M&M it relied on a highly talented outer shell with Long, Henne, Hart, Crable, Manningham and 1-2 others. Look no farther than 2008 to see the exposed choclate interior.
The depth on the OL and the entire team, in fact was gone. Stenavitch was a mediocre-good player as an upperclassman, Boren was starting as a true freshman. Steven Threet was the best QB LC could recruit after Henne. You could even see in starting to happen in 05 and 06 if you looked at recuiting. M would get some top 100 guys like Manningham but the upper 3star and solid 4 star guys from ohio were beginning to get siphoned away by Tressel and eventually to MSU when Dantonio got there.
The cracks began in 2001 when Tressel came in to A2 and won with a lesser team. 5 years later, the ohio talent pipeline was shut off, Tressel was rolling and Bo died. M had enough talent in the upper classes to have an excellent team in 06 but it went all down hill when that talent started to leave in 07 and finally 08
October 21st, 2019 at 1:29 AM ^
Ok but the general narrative is that Harbaugh is supposed to be better than Carr right, maybe even a lot better.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:58 AM ^
Lloyd had a 4-1 (3-0 to start) record against OSU in his first 5 seasons. And that was mostly against OSU teams ranked in the top 5.
That is the difference.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:18 PM ^
You can't say positive things about Lloyd Carr around here because Brian thought the play calling was boring
October 20th, 2019 at 11:34 PM ^
So you admit you were one of the jackass fucking idiots that wanted him fired. Give you props for publicly stating it. "WE" all didn't want that.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:37 PM ^
I was 18 and the spread was so cool to everyone.
October 21st, 2019 at 1:01 PM ^
Interesting. I had you pegged for an adolescent. If you're an adult, wow. It's worse than I thought.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:16 PM ^
Sorry if my generation doesnt suck up to authority figures like yours.
October 20th, 2019 at 11:35 PM ^
I was actually thinking about the Carr era the other day. I realized Scot Loeffler is the only current head coach you could feasibly call a product of the Lloyd Carr coaching tree. And even though it's a MAC job god knows how the hell he got even that job as his tenures as OC were basically average or worse. But Loeffler would have only been in play if Lloyd had stayed on another 5 years. The realistic Carr options in 2007 would have been Ron English, Mike Debord and perhaps Brady Hoke. Yeah, that would have been a frickin disaster.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:05 AM ^
Brian hates deBord. But why wouldn't DeBord have been our Ryan Day. The systems guy who does well. We'd have kept Mallett too. I think this was a better path than RR.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:18 AM ^
Because DeBord was a head coach, at CMU, and was fired after four horrible seasons. That's why no one wanted him.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:17 AM ^
Thanks for sharing these stats. Pretty interesting to think back on now given RR and Hoke's respective struggles. I'm not sure if we will be able to replicate Carr's strong numbers in rivalry games, but I'm hopeful JH can turn it around starting with ND this week.
October 21st, 2019 at 12:18 AM ^
Sorry, but Lloyd broke the cardinal rule of nature when he left this program in worse shape than when he found it. Two years after he was hired, he won the national championship with Moeller's recruits in 1997, then his next best year included two losses (twice). He rode that NC for the rest of his career until the teams finished 7-5 in 2005 after starting the season with a No. 3 ranking. There was The Horror, the game after versus Oregon, and some embarrassing losses. He did nothing to foster in a new coach, whether he liked him or not, and he basically helped shovel dirt on RR the day after he was hired. He also left the cupboard bare of talent when he left.
Yes, thanks Lloyd for 1997, but he got less with more, and he laid the groundwork for what has become a young generation of mediocrity. He should have been fired...
October 21st, 2019 at 12:27 AM ^
From Lloyd's 2007 class
Zion Babb
Artis Chambers
Toney Clemons
Marell Evans
Vince Helmuth
Brandon Herron
Avery Horn
Austin Panter
James Rogers
Renaldo Sagesse
Steve Watson
Quite a few duds.
October 21st, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
...when we needed "dudes".
October 21st, 2019 at 1:09 AM ^
I said it at the time Harbaugh was hired — we would be thrilled if he matched Carr’s record of achievement.
October 21st, 2019 at 6:03 AM ^
And Harbaugh basically has. The difference is the juggernaught in Columbus that emerged at the end of Lloyd's tenure has gotten even worse. If OSU wasn't a world destroyer and/or Harbaugh had gotten 1-2 games off of them already, no one is freaking out right now
October 21st, 2019 at 11:23 AM ^
Exactly. And two of those OSU losses are directly attributable to Hoke having done nothing in the way of development or depth at the quarterback position. If Harbaugh has a viable 2nd option in 2016 to sub for a injured Wilton Speight, we win that game. If Harbaugh has a viable 2nd option in 2017 to sub for Wilton Speight or Brandon Peters, we win that game.
Harbaugh took over in 2015 and had the following for QB depth:
Shane Morris
Wilton Speight
Alex Malzone
October 21st, 2019 at 3:13 AM ^
He had a great run, and then he let OSU take over the rivalry and then started losing to App State and Oregon. It wasn't like he got fired, he retired cause he was past his prime
October 21st, 2019 at 3:42 PM ^
Hmm Coach Carr's first 2 seasons in the big chair were 4 loss seasons just like the 4 loss season Mo suffered his last 2 years...I guess Mo could only do decent his first 3 years while riding the coattails of Bo. Let's take a look at how Coach Mo performed in his other HC stops--wait we had better not because that really doesnt support the idea of the football genius building a program.
So which of Mo's recruits did Carr win with? The 4th year juniors and seniors on the offense? That gives us who...Howard, Floyd, Griese, Jansen? An offense that was so devoid of talent a starting DB had to be the weapon to generate points. Coach Carr gets credit for the defensive talent because he was the DC for Mo.
Kudos to Debord for figuring out a way to get enough points out of that "cycle of recruits". I know it was never as exciting as say a win over Delaware State but he had his moments.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:03 AM ^
It seems interesting to note that OSU never made a bad coaching hire. In fact, after Bruce, each coach got successively better. Tressel and Meyer both won NCs, and Day seems to be doing just fine so far building off Meyer's foundation.
I have no problem with the idea of Carr winning with Moeller's players, as OSU coaches also won with their predecessors' players. The problem is, none of the M coaches really built up the program from what they walked into. You could almost argue Hoke did it in his first year, but that proved to be a fluke aided by a rare down year for OSU prior to hiring Meyer (so we could say OSU screws up interim coaches, not permanent coaches).
The other is consistency. OSU coaches took the talent they had and based their play calling from that, gradually adapting it over the years to their vision. Rich Rod tried to fit a square peg into a round hole. M had Borges calling plays, 'nuff said. And Harbaugh seems to have made the mistakes of both his predecessors, despite generally improving the talent level.
EDIT: Maybe I should have said 'after Cooper', although, aside from vs. M, he didn't do too bad either.
October 21st, 2019 at 6:21 AM ^
This was the era before mobile QBs really took off. Carr was a good coach but he had his time and Tressel/OSU started their death star at the tail end of his career.
October 21st, 2019 at 6:47 AM ^
Lloyd was a fine coach. He had one great season and a couple nice seasons in 99-2000. He was fortunate to coach against John Cooper and so the “unsatisfying” early years like 93, 95, 96 ended on a happy note. Had he lost to OSU in those years, I don’t know that he lasts very long. He lost 4 games in 94,95,and 96. Moeller left him a lot of talent especially in the trenches. But I remember a lot of losses to Illinois and Minnesota and northwestern.
October 21st, 2019 at 9:26 AM ^
This, exactly. Those string of 4-loss seasons before the 1997 championship were much easier to stomach after throttling uber-talented OSU teams at the end of the each season. I am forever grateful for Lloyd and the '97 championship. He was a good coach, had the proper ethical and moral compass, and represented a direct connection to the glory Bo years. But there were frustrating moments, including rosters laden with talent that should've been national championship contenders. I understand that we're all frustrated this year, but we endured similar frustrations during the Carr years.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:38 AM ^
The 4-loss trend actually started under Moeller (93 and 94)
October 21st, 2019 at 1:19 PM ^
Yup. Carr was head coach for two of those 4-loss years in the 90's. But a certain 4-loss malaise had set in that was partially offset by the annual victory over highly ranked OSU teams.
October 21st, 2019 at 7:08 AM ^
The Big 10 is a more complete conference now. I understand the frustration with Harbaugh not winning the Big 10.
i love Lloyd and think he gets treated unfairly. I’ve been very critical of Harbaugh this year. Having said that let hope this team continues improving and can beat ND and MSU. That won’t win the conference this year but with our current record it’d be the next best thing.
EDIT: The true next best thing would be also beating OSU but that team looks stacked. Keep improving and give yourself a chance.
October 21st, 2019 at 7:38 AM ^
October 21st, 2019 at 7:48 AM ^
First, Lloyd Carr retired, he wasn't fired.
Second, Lloyd Carr doesn't come in for criticism from fans for the first six years of his tenure, it's his last seven that leave a bad taste in most fans mouths.
Carr's record from 2001 onward:
Conference Championships: 1 outright, 1 shared
Bowl Record: 2-5
Record Against Top Ten: 5-7
Record Against Ranked Teams: 17-14
Record Against Ranked Teams on the Road: 6-6
Record Against OSU: 1-6
This is the reason that Lloyd Carr wasn't allowed to choose a successor, and rightfully so; nevermind that Lloyd didn't really have a successor lined up to take over the reigns. When everyone remembers the Carr years fondly, we're remembering 1997-2000. That's it. Beyond that 4 year span, the Carr tenure was fairly meh.
Further, Carr assumed command of the program while it was still reasonably operational. He didn't have to rebuild everything from scratch like Harbaugh has had to do. Carr also didn't have to compete in a conference where the championship is awarded through a championship game; under those conditions, who knows how many conference championships he might have wound up with. Carr also didn't have to compete for a National Championship by winning a 4 team playoff; under those conditions, again, who knows if he'd have a National Championship.
Trying to do a one-to-one comparison of the Carr era to Harbaugh without taking this into context is intellectually dishonest at best and a poor troll-job at worst.
I'm going to guess you're the latter.
October 21st, 2019 at 10:09 AM ^
There wss nothing trainwreck about Michigan when Harbaugh came in.
Hoke left the cupboard full of talent. That '16 team was all Hoke recruits. Harbaugh has had 3 top 10 recruiting classes, yet almost lost to Army and gets absolutely slammed by Wiscy. Unthinkable during Lloyds prime.
Even if you take Lloyds twilight years
17- 14 vs ranked teams is better than 9-12
6-6 vs ranked teams on the road is better than 1-8
6 straight wins vs MSU. 9 straight vs PSU. I think Wiscy beat us once in 07
2-5 bowl games? 3 of those losses were in the Rose Bowl to USC juggernaught and Vince Young.
Alot better than losing to a mediocre South Csrolina team
October 21st, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^
There wss nothing trainwreck about Michigan when Harbaugh came in.
What? Michigan was coming off a 5-7 season where it's Athletic Director was forced out by a massive student protest march. Michigan got worse every year under Brady Hoke prior to his dismissal, but you're suggesting that the program was in a healthy state? Get the fuck out of here.
Hoke left the cupboard full of talent.
At some positions. Defensive line we were loaded. Offensive line, Quarterback we were pretty thin. How many of Hokes wideouts beyond Darboh and Chesson managed to break big on the offense? How many tailbacks? Much of our lack of success on offense is directly attributable to Hoke's poor recruiting and lack of depth at key positions.
6-6 vs ranked teams on the road is better than 1-8
And Harbaugh at home against ranked teams is 6-3 which is an identical winning percentage to Carr's 10-5 from 2001-2007. Does Harbaugh get credit for that? Along the same lines, Harbaugh's winning percentage at home is .878 which is better than Carr's .833 from 2001-2007. Does Harbaugh get credit for that?
yet almost lost to Army and gets absolutely slammed by Wiscy
And Carr lost to Appalachian State; not almost lost to them, LOST to them. Harbaugh is 2-2 against Wisconsin and slammed them worse last season. Does he get credit for that?
6 straight wins vs MSU.
You're comparing MSU under Bobby Williams and John L. Smith vs. MSU under Mark Dantonio and dinging Harbaugh for "only" being 2-2 against him? C'mon.
Alot better than losing to a mediocre South Csrolina team
Is it better than losing to a mediocre Nebraska team? And the only reason Michigan was in two of those Rose Bowls was because OSU was playing in the BCS game in 2006, and they picked us over Iowa in 2004.
You're just mining specific data points to support a narrow narrative and ignoring any form of bigger picture that contradicts it. Lloyd Carr was a good head coach, but to randomly cite numbers absent of or even acknowledging any sort of context and offering it up as some form of definitive proof that he's a superior coach to Jim Harbaugh is wholly dishonest.
You're a troll.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:33 PM ^
And youre a pussy who wishes Harbaugh would sleep over and play catch with you like your father never did you little bitch.
Talk about mining data points when you take half of Carrs career away and its still better than Harbaughs in every measurable facet.
6-6 is better than 1-8
2-5 in bowls is still better than 1-3.
3 rosebowls is better than 0.
15 - 2 vs Wisconsin, Psu and State is better than 7-6.
Notice how you ignore 3 top 10 recruiting classes, or how Harbaughs best team was Hoke guys. But its year 5 and youre giddie because Franklin didnt blow Harbaugh out again.
Fuck outta my face.
October 21st, 2019 at 3:52 PM ^
And youre a pussy who wishes Harbaugh would sleep over and play catch with you like your father never did you little bitch.
When you have to resort to the ad hominem, you've lost the argument, son; but by all means keep recycling the same four meaningless talking points. Perhaps if you say it enough you'll convince everybody.
But I doubt it.
October 21st, 2019 at 4:39 PM ^
Its only meaningless because you cant dispute them and wish your daddy taught you how to play football.
October 21st, 2019 at 7:08 PM ^
Thank goodness this loser has been blocked.
October 21st, 2019 at 4:42 PM ^
Its only meaningless because you cant dispute them and wish your daddy taught you how to play football.
Youll make excuses for Harbaugh after every failure and getting beat like a drum by Ohio every year because as a loser thats what you are used to as well. Losing and making excuses
October 22nd, 2019 at 9:05 AM ^
Its only meaningless because you cant dispute them
Sigh. Fine.
6-6 is better than 1-8
This argument is meaningless without context. In the six losses Carr suffered to ranked teams on the road, the team he lost to was, on average, ranked 7 spots lower than Michigan. Michigan's eight losses on the road under Harbaugh came against competition that was, on average, ranked 5 spots higher. Conclusion, Harbaugh's road competition has been tougher than what Carr faced, which is why his record is worse, but it doesn't indicate either way whether he's a better coach or not. Using this data point to draw that conclusion is a lazy take.
2-5 in bowls is still better than 1-3
Yep, by 7%. Splitting this hair and then sitting back with your arms folded in satisfaction as if you've identified a significant discriminator in results is pretty amusing. Harbaugh wins a bowl game this winter and this part of your argument evaporates.
3 rosebowls is better than 0
He's gotten Michigan to an Orange Bowl. Regardless, this metric is irrelevant in the current college post-season configuration, where the goal is to try and make it into the playoff. Making it into the Rose Bowl would only really matter if it was one of the playoff games, otherwise it's just a consolation game on par with any other New Years Day bowl game. You're comparing apples and oranges, and drawing a fallacious conclusion. Again, context.
15 - 2 vs Wisconsin, Psu and State is better than 7-6
Sorry, but this is egregious data mining. Pretending that Wisconsin, PSU, and MSU have been consistently as good or better during Carr's tenure than the programs that Harbaugh is facing currently is completely dishonest. From 1995 - 2007, Wisconsin averaged 8.5 wins a season, MSU averaged 6 wins, PSU averaged 8 wins. From 2015 - 2018, Wisconsin has averaged 10.5 wins a season, MSU has averaged 8, and PSU has averaged 9.5. The three teams you cherry-picked to make your Carr narrative sound better have been averaging a full 2 wins a season more during Harbaugh's tenure. When Carr faced those teams, none of them were as consistently good as they are today, so giving Carr credit for winning games against inferior competition and dinging Harbaugh is another dishonest narrative.
Notice how you ignore 3 top 10 recruiting classes, or how Harbaughs best team was Hoke guys.
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't know what your point is. Are you saying Harbaugh is doing less with more talent than Carr? I don't think that's true. Lloyd frequently drew in Top 10 recruiting classes and came in for criticism for not getting as much bang for his buck with his talent.
But its year 5 and youre giddie because Franklin didnt blow Harbaugh out again
Nowhere did I comment about being giddy that Franklin didn't blow Harbaugh out again; you're putting words in my mouth. I will point out that Harbaugh is 3-2 against Franklin, so your comment about "again" falls a little flat.
and wish your daddy taught you how to play football.
I was more of a basketball player growing up, but my father did teach me a lot about football when he took me to see Michigan play. He also taught me to argue and disagree with people in a dignified and respectful manner; a lesson your father either failed to give you or you just ignored.
Is that sufficient? I'll wait for your apology.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:50 AM ^
Dude, you HAVE to be kidding. We were an absolute shitshow after Hoke. Harbaugh made us competitive immediately.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:08 AM ^
This is hilarious in many ways. When Carr was coach, he was a trainwreck according to these same types of people, can't beat Tressel, can't win the big bowl game, was lucky to win a title in '97 (or even, "share" a title, as critics would point out).
Now, we get the opposite: oh my god, Carr was the best! We were so dominant. If only we could go back to those times, etc.
Why do people have to put the world into such black and white terms? Carr was a good coach. Harbaugh is a good coach. Neither, alas, are at the very topmost level of coaches, people like Urban Meyer (I hate to say), who combine an intricate knowledge of a modern system and the highest level of recruiting.
The end result: the fans are always unhappy.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:36 AM ^
Neither, alas, are at the very topmost level of coaches, people like Urban Meyer (I hate to say), who combine an intricate knowledge of a modern system and the highest level of recruiting.
Although I think Harbaugh doesn't get enough credit recruiting-wise for trying to be innovative. This is the guy who came up with the idea of running offsite spring camps in the south during the offseason. It was a really innovative idea to help pump up Michigan's profile in recruiting rich areas of the country until the SEC got the NCAA to protect their monopoly and create rules to prevent Harbaugh from doing it. That kind of institutional gaming of the recruiting system, I don't know how some coaches, him included, can stomach staying in the college game.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:52 AM ^
The term "nostalgia" is actually a derogatory term describing how we sugarcoat old memories. People who like Carr today fall HARD into this category.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:23 AM ^
Ironically, Wisconsin’s system and program remind me so much of our old teams. Offenses that were predicated on great OLIne play. Power O. Offenses that were ball control and low risk but eventually wore teams down.
I get PTSD every time it’s third down with this team...
I hope we continue to progress. The offensive line has potential but they just seem like they have not put it all together just yet.
October 21st, 2019 at 8:37 AM ^
I downvoted the thread.
October 21st, 2019 at 9:06 AM ^
"I cant believe we wanted this man fired."
who you callin' "we?"
it's one thing to say it was time for lloyd to retire. it's another thing to say "we" wanted him to get fired...the people that wanted us to fire lloyd fired were idiots.
sadly, most of those idiots are still around, still looking to fire everyone every time we lose a game we "shouldn't."
October 22nd, 2019 at 10:05 AM ^
still looking to fire everyone every time we lose a game we "shouldn't."
"Shouldn't" in this context being a night road game against a higher ranked, undefeated opponent to whom we were overwhelmingly picked to lose.
Idiots indeed.
October 21st, 2019 at 9:55 AM ^
Lloyd is the ultimate Michigan Saboteur. The jackass blinked when Tressel made the speech. The program has never recovered. Screw him.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:53 AM ^
Forget that, how about losing control of his team in 2007 and letting them all get high before THAT game?
How about being a "saboteur" and blocking the Les Miles hiring. That shit was just as bad, if not worse, than him prematurely retiring circa 2005.
October 21st, 2019 at 10:45 AM ^
Always appreciated Lloyd Carr, even when frustrated about this or that moment, this or that game. We were lucky to have him as our coach.
October 21st, 2019 at 11:15 AM ^
I didn't want him fired. Would love to hear from people who did, and subsequently hailed RR as the coach who would 'take us to the next level'.
I'm growing increasingly convinced that to get to an Alabama or Clemson level requires widespread, systematic cheating. I'd rather see the team at 9-3 or 10-2 than do that.
Frankly, I enjoyed the Bo era more than the 'modern' era: The Big 10 was actually ten teams. Everyone played everyone every year. No money-grab 'championship' game at year end; the champion was the team with the best round-robin record. Champion goes to Rose Bowl. Everyone else stays home and watches (instead of going to some pointless bowl game that the best players sit out of anyway).