Jon Jansen goes after J.J. and some of the players. "Read the room" He says.
Jansen on his radio show goes after J.J. that he put himself above the team. Then about the train formation, he leaves it open that maybe Harbaugh and or the staff had the players do it. This isn't the first the first time that he's done something like this. Last year, he blamed the Michigan players for the tunnel incident, then walked back his comments later. I guess he likes the radio gig, and doesn't want to piss off Valenti.
Here is the podcast. People can judge for themselves.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
But come on, some of us like being exposed to other opinions on these subjects, and some of us believe a dialog is healthy. The suggestion that "support" means only praising, never criticizing, and that simply noting that some people are critical about some aspects of Michigan football is improper on this site — on the Message Board on this site, for chrissake — is ... well.
I, at least, disagree with those suggestions.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:14 AM ^
Yes and no.
No, you don't want to shut down healthy debate. But I don't need to read anything on this site to know that some people are being critical of the things the team did in defense of Harbaugh on Saturday and that other people fully support it. Anybody who pays attention to college football enough to be on this site already know this is happening so it is not news.
So the question becomes, is it really newsworthy that Jansen believes what he does? I guess, maybe? But only insofar as it makes people have a conversation they have already had again because of how Jansen feels.
And that is getting pretty far down the rabbit hole.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^
The fallacy here is assuming all resources are infinite. I don't run the place or make the rules, but the reason I'm digging my heels is because what I can do is identify a limited resource. MGoBoard has only seven frontpaged topics. The rest don't vanish, of course, but you have to be disingenuously obtuse to argue visibility of a topic doesn't go WAY down once it's bumped off the FP. So if you signal-boost something, it's very much NOT "healthy dialogue is giving every opinion exposure" because you're very much NOT doing that. With only seven FPed topics, boosting anything aggressively shunts something else, effectively killing it. As such you literally cannot ever live up to these naive, lofty ideals of free exposure and open dialogue, at least here. There's too much of a competition for attention.
So we're forced to curate, or at least should, and whatever you think of Jansen, I don't see how an "I don't like thing" snowflake take ever meets the threshold of sniping some other topic of discussion. It has nothing to do with supportive vs. critical. Signal-boosting snowflakes is basically saying one person's opinion is so important that discussion of something else must cease. I'd neg it if it was, "Jansen thought it was cool," for the same reasons.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
I agree with your general point, especially for garbage stuff like Valenti.
Here it seems like this is one of the best 7 possible discussions for today. I disagree with Jon Jansen on this topic and have been becoming less of a fan of his over the last year or so, but I'm not convinced it's an unreasonable/garbage take. He's not crapping on recruits or getting super defensive like EJ Holland and he's got a bit more leeway to be critical than Sam since he's not covering recruiting.
I think it will be interesting to see if Jansen eventually turns off the players. I do get a bit of a disconnect between his style/preferences for what a college athlete should do/say and what I believe the style of the team/18-24s is these days.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
Well. . . okay. I'll admit the importance of this is subjective.
It just really rankles to hear this is some principle thing about free speech and open dialogue. This is a blog, not a forum. As such, the tiny bit of FP allocated for user topics is fundamentally incompatible with that ideal.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but that post reads like the message board version of "Down in front!".
September 6th, 2023 at 9:07 PM ^
Given the number of responses, it’s clear the topic is of substantial interest. Discussions readers are more interested in shouldn’t be disallowed in favor of others that are less interesting.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
I think the conversation is worth having, and I appreciate people sharing Jansen's remarks. not all of us who are interested in the conversation want to devote the time to listening to the podcast. imo, Jansen's football takes are worth while, but the further he gets away from actual football, the less I value what he has to say.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:44 AM ^
"Unwritten-rules-of-baseball"-ass losers.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:10 PM ^
the point is we think jansen is staying this crap just for ratings. there's no need to share that if you believe so.
like, is he actually "thinking this way" or is he thinking what will make himself the most money right now in the short term?
since i think he's just trolling, then i wouldn't want to share it. if i believed he honestly thinks this is a problem for the program, then i would.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^
The down in front crowd should take a chill pill.
JJ is young and bold and this team loves their coach.
September 6th, 2023 at 5:19 PM ^
My question is why do they think this way? I mean seriously, anything to motivate them short of committing a crime or serious moral failure is fine by me and should be to any fan of the team.
Being offended and put off by the train formation that lasted all of 3 seconds and was a clear nod to a coach, shows, as the spiritualist would say, that you are a “low vibrational person”. Especially if you are a fan of the team making said gesture.
September 6th, 2023 at 9:34 PM ^
Its a freaking football formation where they gained 4 yards. Damn, let the KIDS have fun. The former Michigan legends from the Carr era always have a Spartans like opinion on the new generation talent. Let the kids be kids
September 6th, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
Because they allow posters to publish comments that get a lot of up votes.
September 6th, 2023 at 2:03 PM ^
Because the internet is far more of an anger-machine (and the news a fear-machine), more than it is an information-machine.
Libraries are right there. Yet people choose not to use them (except to rent movies apparently, lmao)
September 6th, 2023 at 6:48 PM ^
Grumpy is as Grumpy does.
September 6th, 2023 at 9:46 AM ^
If "the room" was the 100,000+ people witnessing the train tribute; the response has me think JJ read it perfectly.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:02 AM ^
I think Michigan fans like the Train formation.
I think there's a portion of the fan base that is perhaps less enthusiastic about what it represented on Saturday.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
I see Jansen’s take and the kid from the Daily but more broadly, why is a portion of the fan base not enthusiastic about what it represented?
September 6th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
Ding ding ding. What, exactly did it “represent”?
September 6th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
support for a coach who has always supported and advocated for them.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
I mean, I'm not going to go into EVERYTHING that it represented, because you could probably write a book about Harbaugh, the NCAA, Michigan, etc.
But there's certainly a rational argument for saying that Michigan broke the rules, Harbaugh deserves some sort of punishment, and . . . the Michigan players are just saying, "Ahhh, let him off the hook! It's okay to cheat!"
Whether Michigan fans want to admit it or not, Ryan Osborn should not have been coaching on the field at Michigan. He was an analyst. He had no business coaching up Hutchinson, Ojabo, etc. This goes outside of the cheeseburger thing.
Now if you listen to Sam Webb, he says it goes on everywhere, and maybe that's true. I'm sure Michigan isn't the only school to have used an analyst as a coach on the field. That doesn't mean it's okay.
I'll liken it to speeding. If the speed limit is 55 and there are a variety of people going 65, 68, and 71 mph, it's not okay to drive 68 mph. That person deserves a ticket. It's still illegal. Did the guy going 71 get a ticket? No. Maybe the police didn't see him. Maybe the guy was going 71 while the police pulled over the guy going 68. The guy going 71 deserves a ticket, too, but life isn't perfect and not every speeder gets caught.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
So Magnus, I like your analogy here, but isn't this exactly what we've all been wanting and waiting for? For Michigan to stop being the only driver going 55 while everyone else passes them going 63? I know I sure as hell have!
September 6th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
It's what some people have been wanting, sure. It seems to be Brian's take on the situation. It's not universal.
I find many of the NCAA's rules silly, including the limit on the size of the coaching staff. But they're still the rules, and Michigan had an obligation to obey them, perhaps as they work to get them changed. Even if -- perhaps especially if -- other teams don't.
I would rather watch Michigan lose with honor than win without it. If there's no honor, the win is meaningless. And if there's no honor -- no integrity -- then why on earth does the university sponsor an athletic program?
September 6th, 2023 at 11:20 AM ^
There is what there is and there is what should be. I have found almost no correlation between supporting behavior that should be and having that behavior be the norm. So I live in the world of what is. And what is is that Michigan is going to have to follow the crowd at chow time if they want to fill that stadium.
If it came out that the Michigan Athletic Department gave Blake Corum a Ferrari and wired $100,000 to the Edwards' bank account after the OSU game I would have a major problem with it. If it came out that the Michigan coaches were acting recklessly with players or that there was serious hazing happening, I would be irate.
But don't give me any nonsense about a Covid dead period and an analyst. I simply do not care, at all.
September 6th, 2023 at 1:43 PM ^
I too would have a major problem. That’s not nearly enough.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
The point I think many fans are taking umbrage with here, Magnus, is that we seem to be the only ones getting pulled over and issued a ticket at all.
September 6th, 2023 at 1:10 PM ^
I certainly understand that sentiment, even if the conclusion is not totally accurate. There are other schools who are currently under investigation and/or have been under investigation.
Again with the speeding analogy, when you get pulled over, you think, "Well, that guy just passed me and he had to be going at least 80 and he didn't get pulled over and they must be targeting me!"
But then you drive past people pulled over time and time again for the next ten years, and you're like, "Haha, you shouldn't have been driving like an asshole. Sucks to be you!"
September 7th, 2023 at 8:04 AM ^
While Kirby Smart drives by at 100, shooting guns in the air and throwing keys of coke out the car windows. Some teams are more equal than others.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
The speed limit analogy is perfect. If the speed limit is 55, almost everyone drives at 63-65, and the cop decided to pull over a Uber driver going at 61 and give him a ticket because the company will sanction him.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
It's like getting pulled over for speeding and expecting a slap on the wrist (warning to not do that, or small fine/ticket). Instead the cop throws you in jail for something barely illegal, and something everyone else is doing and not getting any punishment for.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
Magnus, You show a very limited understanding of rules and laws.
Anyone can be charged with something- driving, taxes, there is always some way to pin a crime on someone.
I'm sure there are thousands of NCAA violations every year. When the NCAA seems to be only interested in going after Harbaugh it shows there is an agenda that isn't about enforcing the rules.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
But this isn't 68 vs 71. This is 58 vs 121. It's laughable to see teams like UNC and Kansas skate why we have suspensions for an analyst on the field and cheeseburgers. One is a minor infraction that is usually let go, the other is reckless driving.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:10 PM ^
Yeah, some folks like to say "nuance" when they often mean "obfuscation". It's a cynical way to make a smokescreen of false reason and credibility.
Michigan is not squeaky-clean by any means, but the violations during Harbaugh's tenure vs. that of some programs that basically avoided punishment is only "nuanced" if you're a toxic, disingenuous shitposter. Harbaugh got pulled over for going 60 in a 55, technically illegal okay, while the cops are just waving at cars with effin' booster rockets strapped to them. That's not nuance; that's "failed state" levels of hypocrisy and corruption.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
Time to follow the flow of traffic and tell the NCAA to fuck off.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
Exactly!
September 6th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^
Yea but if you have a clean driving record, most times you can just pay a small fine with no points on your driving record and get it reduced to impeding or some bullshit. Harbaugh, as far as I know, has a clean record. Does he deserve some sort of a minor punishment? Maybe. Does he deserve a 3 game suspension or whatever bullshit the NCAA was pushing? Absolutely not.
September 6th, 2023 at 2:47 PM ^
A couple of things. You say, "Harbaugh deserves some sort of punishment, and . . . the Michigan players are just saying, 'Ahhh, let him off the hook! It's okay to cheat!'"
That's an obvious straw man argument. No one is saying that.
What the players and other Harbaugh defenders are saying you allude to later in your argument: it's a speeding violation. Yet the NCAA has chosen to selectively prosecute when -- to continue with your metaphor -- there are far more serious rules violations readily apparent to anyone paying attention. With the North Carolinas, Kansases, Tennessees, etc., etc. more or less getting away with far more fundamental violations, apparently because they can, it seems ludicrous to many to prosecute Michigan for relative trivialities. Worse, the aggressiveness of the prosecution does not appear to be motivated by the specific violations, but by Harbaugh's refusal to capitulate by admitting he lied when he doesn't think he did. In short, the NCAA appears to be acting out of spite.
I would add the NCAA's behavior in issuing an aggressive public statement on the matter when it knows Michigan can't respond is unprofessional. Arguably, the statement violated the NCAA's own rules, which raises the issue of hypocrisy, and further undermines any claim the NCAA is acting in good faith.
This is why the players, and frankly (to rebut the "read the room" comment) most of the Michigan community in this specific instance is supporting Harbaugh.
September 6th, 2023 at 9:43 PM ^
So you trying to tell everyone that Bama's analyst do not coach on the field when they can leave the office and become OC for the Championship game in a week's notice? How about a Fox pregame host? We know he installed OSU 1st quarter offense. He had to be on the field to do that because it was working too smoothly.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
Because even if the NCAA are idiots--the idea of punishment when so much, far worse, goes unpunished is clearly crap--flouting the rules, in the end, or rules-breaking, isn't our best look? Outside of rah rah tribalism, there is room for a more nuanced take here.
I wouldn't have called out J.J. afterward--he's a kid and that's his beloved coach. But there's a time for putting down your head and getting on with things, and that's what the three-game voluntary suspension was ABOUT.
Thankfully, this will not be the end of the world.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:12 AM ^
I knew Michigan fans who wanted RR fired for Stretchgate. There's a contingent of longtime Michigan fans who care more about Michigan's reputation for following the rules than anything else.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Most of the folks who wanted RR fired for Stretchgate wanted RR fired before he coached his first game. That guy never had the full support of the community.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:40 AM ^
While RichRod didn't do himself many favors, I think that episode was the first exposure for many of us to just how petty the Internet can be. Remember shred-gate? And cell-phone tower gate? It's almost as though if you look hard enough, you'll find controversy anywhere.
September 6th, 2023 at 10:42 AM ^
Right. Stretchgate was not a fireable offense. It was embarrassing on several levels, though. And let's face it, these guys know what they're doing. Rich Rodriguez isn't a dummy. You don't get to be a head coach for like 15 years without having any clue how long you can practice, what constitutes practice, etc. He was trying to get away with something and got caught.
Some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." Jim Harbaugh obviously likes to push boundaries. He got caught. It's not the end of the world, but it happened.
September 6th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
Agree, it's not the end of the world.
Disagree with the general premise here. Others above have noted the speeding analogy isn't near accurate. And I do believe part of the reason the NCAA can target Michigan with impunity over small rules violations, is there is enough a part of the fanbase/administration who gets stuck on the tree (two-ish small rules were broken) as opposed to the forest (other university's abusing major rules, NCAA breaking it's own rules to speak publicly about this, etc.).
At this rate, you or other UM administrators might as well coach the Offensive Tackles not to hold at all, ever, since that's breaking the rules. And when an OT gets flagged for a hand inside the shoulder pad once when the other team is mauling the DL play in and play out, you can tell the OT in front of the whole team and fanbase that he knew the rules and still broke them. There's small rules violations (holding, analysts coaching), and there's big rules violations (targeting, sex abuse culture, buying players by the bushel, fake classes). We can choose to stand on the concept that a rules violation is a rules violation, and I'd even be up for that if the NCAA had demonstrated a modicum of fairness. But it hasn't.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
Some people say, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." Jim Harbaugh obviously likes to push boundaries.
That's not fair. You really think Harbaugh pushes the boundaries more than the average Big Ten/SEC coach??
It's not obvious to me at all he is pushing any boundaries. IF he broke any rules (secret NCAA investigation so we literally don't know anything beyond what reporters have alleged the NCAA has alleged) it couldn't have been an honest mistake??
This is where we start to get defensive about harbaugh. Okay, maybe he broke a rule, we get it. Does he deserve a reputation as "obviously likes to push boundaries"?
We do think Harbaugh is one of the most ethical coaches in college football, and if you think he's one of the worst, then we do have a disagreement that makes us very defensive.
September 6th, 2023 at 1:17 PM ^
I'm not privy to the inner workings of what happens at Indiana or Minnesota or Rutgers because I don't care about them much, but yes, I think Harbaugh pushes the boundaries. He did so with satellite camps. He did so with how players practiced (young guys practice like 8:00-12:00, while old guys practice from like 10:00-2:00). He's promoting players getting paid. He pushed for a one-time transfer rule with immediate eligibility.
These are not all bad things. But they are pushing and testing boundaries.
I didn't say he's unethical, or that he's "one of the worst." I said he pushes boundaries.
September 7th, 2023 at 9:58 AM ^
But the fact that he pushes boundaries (and I agree with you that he does) is completely irrelevant to this case.
None of the infractions that Michigan has conceded occurred (most of the even self-reported) were attempts to push boundaries. Most, in fact, were staff attempting to fulfill their duties and violating a constantly-changing set of rules around Covid.
September 6th, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
double post
September 6th, 2023 at 10:45 AM ^
I never supported Rich Rod beyond wanting Michigan to win. Michigan has the whole "Michigan Man" thing. Rich Rod was coaching at the university he played for and almost brought them to a National Championship. He could have coached there for 20 more years, made a lot more money and had a lot of success. He wasn't loyal. He wasn't Michigan material. He was a bad hire.
I get that most coaches are journeymen including Harbaugh and Bo, but if you're just doing it for the money something is wrong. Bo didn't take the A&M job.