Harbaugh ranked by CBS as #23 Power Five Coach
Behind Mark Stoops and Herm Edwards and one spot in front of his protege, David Shaw. Not like their opinion matters that much, but broached a topic I actually found interesting.
I personally think this is how the rankings should go:
Top Tier (Won multiple championships, not reliant on the play of a single transcendent player)
#1 - Saban - He's daddy
#2 - Dabo - Step daddy
Second Tier (Proven they can get the job done when everything is clicking)
#3 - Jimbo Fisher - He won a national championship with FSU, has built Texas A&M into a legit contender and is a hell of a recruiter.
#4 - Ed Orgeron - We're only two years separated from their title run. Yes, he had Burrow, a stacked team, and Brady, but someone had to recruit and hire those players and coaches (see what I did there)?
Third Tier (Knocking at the door)
#5 - Kirby Smart - Was very close to winning a title against Alabama. He recruits as well as anyone and has to face Alabama every year.
#6 - Ryan Day - He's taken a Ferrari and...well drove it. Basically the same resume as Kirby Smart (been to a title game, great recruiter) except he doesn't have the best coach ever breathing down his neck.
#7 - Lincoln Riley - He's a Heisman making machine, recruits at an elite level and always has Oklahoma in the conversation. No playoff wins though.
#8 - Brian Kelly - Don't think Kelly is that much better than Harbaugh tbh (solid recruiter, has major deficiencies) but credit for the two playoff births, even if they skate through the regular season.
Fourth Tier (Doing more with less)
#9 - Paul Chryst - Wisconsin has been the most consistently great but not elite team for the longest time. Taking into consideration his meh recruiting, that level of consistency is impressive.
#10 - Mack Brown - He's made UNC a contender for the ACC and has proven to be a good recruiter.
#11 - Matt Campbell - The hot kid on the block. Need to see more consistency before he can jump past the two above but he has certainly shown he can hang with the big boys.
#12 - Pat Fitzgerald - He's basically Matt Campbell if Campbell proves he can only contend every other year. Consistency is hard with less talent but Fitz's ability to coach up teams is commendable.
#13 - Kirk Ferentz - See above. Loss of brownie points for running an alleged racist team environment.
Fifth Tier (The good isn't good enough group)
#13 - Mario Cristobal
#14 - James Franklin
#15 - Jim Harbaugh
#16 - Dan Mullen
You could honestly rank all these guys in different orders and I could understand the argument for them. All these guys have BMWs but drive them like Honda's. Sure, going 75 MPH is cool, but the expectation is you should be going 90.
Interested to see how the board treats these rankings. Is it based on accomplishment or what you've done for me recently? I obviously weighted championships and playoff appearances higher than this guy is up and coming, have you seen his recruiting classes?!
I'm not prepared to list them all out but I bet I could get close to 22.
challenge accepted
Really? I’m not saying that I’d take all 22 ranked ahead of him, or that there are 22 who are guaranteed to have more success. However, I’d be willing to give 1 of 22 different coaches the chance.
That first year I went to the bowl game in Orlando and we beat Florida. I thought we would be on Ohio states level going forward. Yes we got screwed by the refs in the game and maybe that changed the trajectory of the program but for the one year being a Michigan football fan felt different
23? 23? I'm outraged!! There's no way coach shouldn't be in the top 5, maybe even 3.
What's that? This is for best Power 5 coaches? I thought it was for booger eating.
Please disregard.
To your credit, we do tend to fare well in many non-revenue sports. No reason to think we can't be competitive at eating boogers.
By looking at your list the difference between being #8 and #15 is "playing Ohio State".
The difference between Notre Dame's success and Michigan's lack thereof boils down to two words: Ohio State.
Brian Kelly's Notre Dame and Jim Harbaugh's Michigan, most years, are essentially the same team with the same capabilities. Same relative limitations as to what they can accomplish when going up against the Alabamas of the world. I'll give Brian Kelly due credit. He handles the schedule given to him and gets his team into a position where they can at least play for something that matters in the postseason. Harbaugh has not. But Brian Kelly does not have to handle going up against a JV NFL juggernaut every year, one that hasn't slowed down once in 50-60 years. He doesn't have to share a conference with that team, much less a division. In other words, he doesn't have this massive near insurmountable roadblock standing between him and his goals. Every now and again ND will have extremely tough games on its schedule, but ones that tough, against teams that good, don't come around very often. At least not every year.
Not that this is ND's fault, but you have Michigan and ND switch places, and Harbaugh has his Michigan team in the playoffs at least once by now, maybe twice. Will they have won it all? Highly doubtful. But they would've gotten there. ND, meanwhile, would be fighting to get by OSU just once or twice every ten years like the rest of us.
You forget that we were straight dogshit last season.
To me, this is the best comment of the thread. With the way CFB is structured today (4 team playoff), most of the major conferences have migrated to 1 "super" power team, a collection of good teams, and then the rest.
OSU, Bama, Clemson, and Oklahoma have established themselves as the "super" power team within their conferences (for some reason no one in the PAC12 have yet to establish themselves as the "super" team - again mainly because there are already 4 + ND fighting for the few coveted playoff spots).
So those teams get the majority of the elite talents and the remaining ~20 teams "good" teams fighting over the rest and attempt to go between 8-4 and 10-2.
There will be some that say this is whining, but I am just stating facts.
> 7 years the CFB playoff has been done....
> 21 total games played (42 team slots)
> Bama, Clemson, OSU, and Oklahoma have played in 31 if the 42 (73.8%)
> Bama, Clemson, OSU, have won 17 of the 21 games (80.9%)
Recruiting during the same time period....
> Bama, Clemson, OSU and Oklahoma have recruited 86 out of 253 5-Star athlete from 2014 - 2021 - 34% (source 247 college football recruiting)
> Since Kirby started at UGA...... 69 out of 128 5-Stars have signed of with Bama, Clemson, OSU, Oklahoma and now UGA - 54%
> Even without Kirby, Bama, OSU, Clemson, and Oklahoma have signed 48 out of 128 37.5%
Not counting LSU great stars aligned run, only 2 team aside from the 3 mentioned above have actually won a playoff game (Georgia and Oregon)
The facts clearly show that a handful of teams (essentially 1 per conference) have positioned themselves as the place to go to have any reasonable attempt for CFB game. They have procured the bulk of talent, combined with good coaching, and limited access to the ultimate goal (national championship) to establish a stranglehold on the sport.
Parity is long gone in CFB and until the NCAA makes a fundemental reshaping of the game (ie expand the playoffs), it will only get worse.....
Yes the author of the article alludes to some to this.
From the article “I think this might be a little too low, but when it comes to Harbaugh, everything seems embellished one way or the other. I had him at No. 17 on my ballot. I mean, he went 2-4 last season, but Michigan has still been a solid top-20 program during his tenure. The inability to beat Ohio State looms large for obvious reasons, but we don't seem to hold that against other Big Ten coaches like we do Harbaugh. 2020 rank: 12 (-11)”
Osu is THE issue for him. It’s the sole reason anyone has Franklin higher than him (they’re even head to head after last year) and Wisconsin doesn’t have to beat osu to win their division. This doesn’t excuse Harbaugh. This is the narrative he knew he’d face if he couldn’t beat them. But if you look at player development and his time before UM there definitely aren’t 22 other coaches with a better resume.
We’re #23
"Brian Kelly: There was once a time when fans could complain that Notre Dame was constantly overrated, and they were right. Thanks to Kelly, it's no longer the case. Kelly has led the Irish to two CFP berths in the last three years, and he also led them to the ACC Championship Game in their only season as a member of the conference. There's still a bit of a gap between the Irish and the elite programs, but that gap seems to narrow slightly with each passing season. 2020 rank: 5 (E)"
UHHHHHHHHHHHHH I can say that Notre Dame is still constantly overrated.
This ranking and $2.99 will get you a gallon if gas.
Can I put the gas in a trash bag?
Coach Mel *&*^ Tucker is in the top tier, just ask any sparty fan.
Halfway down P5 coaches seems about right. No doubt Harbaugh has gotten Michigan to stop being an embarrassment to getting them into the 'sorta good' range, but for the resources and recruiting and all that Michigan has to offer, he should be doing far better.
Has he really ?? We’re still a embarrassment 4/5 games out of the year and they happen to be the high profile games
Tell me more about this high profile Ganges
High profile or not, do not drink the water from the Ganges
I will give credit where credit is due to Orgeron for hiring Joe Brady and getting the hell out of his way, but its hard for me to justify him being the #4 coach in the game. The 2019 season was an outlier for him in an otherwise extremely meh career. And the fact that LSU regressed hard to the mean last season is a big indicator that 2019 was just the epitome of catching lightning in a bottle. I won't dispute that 2019 LSU offense was one of the greatest to ever do it. But he's 61-41. He gets way too much credit for one season.
Brian Kelly is probably right around where he should be. I think at this point his program is what it is and barring him unearthing a Heisman-esque game changer at QB, he's never going to beat an Alabama or full-strength Clemson in the playoffs (sorry, but they would never have beaten Clemson the first time around if Trevor Lawrence was out). But he gets there and manages the schedule put in front of him, so you can't ask for much more than that as a ND fan. He's definitely their best since Lou Holtz, and unless Urban Meyer tells you he wants in, you do what you can to keep Kelly around.
Would love to see what Pat Fitzgerald could do at a school with more resources and a bigger budget/devotion to football, but that'll likely always be a "what if?" Either way, its amazing what he's been able to accomplish at a school with as strict academic guidelines as Northwestern has. As for Kirk Ferentz.....I mean.....has he really done more with less? He reminds me of a more tenured Gus Malzahn. Enough 6-6 to 7-5 years happen in tandem to where he finally approaches a "make or break" season, and then he goes 12-2, gets a contract extension, and then goes 7-5 the following year again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
As for Harbaugh....yeah he's right where he ought to be. Can beat the coaches below him but really can't consistently (or ever) beat the guys ahead of him. His Michigan team, as far as how it performs on the field and the results it gets, are the definition of predictable. Mostly beat the guys you're supposed to beat, never beat the guys you can't.
Fitzgerald at 12? Man, I dunno about that. Sure he does more with less but not a whole lot more.
I would rank him at 123
He’s definitely between 20 and 45
Here are the Big Ten head football coaches ranked in reverse order by the CBS and 247 Sports panelists.
Mike Locksley (Maryland) - 61; Mel Tucker (Michigan State) - 57; Jeff Brohm (Purdue) - 53; Scott Frost (Nebraska) - 47; Bret Bielema (Illinois) - 42; Greg Schiano (Rutgers) - 34; P. J. Fleck (Minnesota) - 25; Jim Harbaugh (Michigan) - 23; Tom Allen (Indiana) - 20; Paul Chryst (Wisconsin) - 18; Kirk Ferentz - Iowa (17); Pat Fitzgerald (Northwestern) - 8; James Franklin (Penn State) - 13; Ryan Day (Ohio State) - 4
Some other coaches of note; Jedd Fisch is 64 at Arizona, Steve Sarkisian is 46 at Texas, Chip Kelly is 39 at UCLA, Mike Leach is 33 at Mississippi State and Lane Kiffin is 30 at Ole Miss.
LINK to the list of coaches ranked from 26 to 65.
But is he #23 in our hearts?
I like your breakout and by and large agree with the tiers and which coaches occupy them (like some of the other posters, I think Orgeron is too high based on the '19 season). Honestly though, I think Harbaugh at #23 is pretty fair assessment from CBS based on the results of his 6 year tenure at Michigan. Yes, he has won some games and beats up on the cupcakes and mediocre B1G programs. He's beaten some good not great teams at home, but as we know he has not won anything of any significance (unless you would consider a Citrus Bowl win significant), has a terrible road record against good competition and for the most part, gotten his clock cleaned against OSU.
For me though what speaks most pointedly to Harbaugh's mediocrity at Michigan is his ability to convert good-not-elite prospect talent into NFL draft picks while simultainously finishing on average 4th in the B1G aggregate standings. I believe the stat was that Michigan has produced the 4th most NFL draft picks over the course of Harbaugh's career at Michigan. While the context doesn't include where in the draft these players are going, and certainly I think that matters.. being a top 5 program in NFL talent production still says something about something.
To me that says, I can identify and develop talent with the best of them, I just can't produce results that align on Saturday = mediocre coach. I do think it's possible a reboot of the program could work - after all, he has produced the results you would expect from an elite coach before. We just have yet to see him do it at Michigan.
Room to grow, and soon.
If you’re a P5 school with an opening, who are you hiring? There’s at least 5 guys ahead of him I would not be interested in replacing Harbaugh with, and 3 more that are pretty debatable but I’d lean towards Harbaugh. So like 15-20 is where I’d put him.
How much stock do you put in last year is essentially the question?
From 2015-2019, Michigan was in the Top 10 in the country in win %, NY6 bowl appearances, 10-win seasons. They were a Top 10 program under Harbaugh.
From 2015-2019, Harbaugh was 0-5 against Ohio State, 1-4 in bowl games (which are becoming increasingly meaningless) and 47-9 against everybody else.
So, again, is 2020 a weird COVID year that we should write off or a harbinger of a continuing downward spiral? We won't know the answer to that until September, unfortunately.
Let's divide salary by ranking and see what we have in reality.
You think Harbaugh is too low?? 15 is.. rich. And Lincoln Riley would be my #3.
Any and all of #5 through #12 could jump ahead of Ed Orgeron. I would even say Jim Harbaugh is probably ahead of him too. I just don't know how you can get your pick of the litter in Louisiana and not have great results.
Can't believe i've become a Orgeron apologist in this thread but we do remember that he won a title two years ago right? Those are...great results. He has the hardware that the others don't have. It has to mean something. There is a lot that goes into being a head coach beyond being a great offensive or defensive mind. I'd argue that all the guys above are better that Coach O at scheme but I don't think i've seen enough evidence to claim they are better CEO types, motivators, roster managers, or talent developer/evaluator. LSU regularly recruits well, develops NFL talent, and has the most recent championship than anyone not named Alabama. He owns a +.700 winning percentage at LSU and has a title. That is nothing to scoff at.
Sure his previous coaching track record is not so good but judging a coach on their past performance would be like ranking...uh Jim Harbaugh in the top 10 based on his Stanford and 49ers experience...
That's a great post and a great list. Thanks for sharing.
Pretty good list, the only thing I want to argue with is Kirk Ferentz is too high.
23 is perfect since we're sponsored by Jordan. Idk honestly based on how last season went, you could rank him 60 and I wouldn't argue with you. Last season was just so freaking bad, inexcusable. Need a great season coming up to compensate for it. But I'm not saying he can't coach we all know he can, just no reason for us to be so poor on the field last season. He got a pass for covid but every team struggled with covid. Makes me sad that we were less resilient than most of the rest of the conference in fighting through the difficulties posed by covid. If anything, weird difficult situations like that should be where we can outshine other teams with our resources and facilities.