DL substitutions MacDonald or Nua?
Are the substitution calls on MacDonald or Nua? The reason I ask is because early in the year Coach Hart said his only regret in one of the games was not playing D. Edwards more. Which makes it seem like coach Hart determines who is on the field for the RB's. While the DL might be more situational than RB and the pieces aren't as interchangeable, I was wondering if its Nua or MacDonald that is calling for the fire drill every 3 plays.
November 5th, 2021 at 9:47 AM ^
Switch!! Oh, wait, shit…
November 5th, 2021 at 9:59 AM ^
I really don't know for sure but logically it has to be both. A DC has to decide the package and you cannot decide who is on the field by yourself as they have to worry about every position group. So, I am going to guess both in the sense that DC decides the package and the position coach decides the player. I guess moreso the position coach than the DC. I hope someone with coaching knowledge answers this. But I hope it doesn't turn into blame game.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:02 AM ^
Well in my very uneducated fan opinion then Nua should know the college rules on subs and how hard it is.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:20 AM ^
Of course he should! So should MacDonald! Nonetheless, Harbaugh should have questioned McD after the first penalty. McD and Nua should have then sorted it out so it didn't happen again. Harbaugh should have blasted McD after the second. Harbaugh should have gone off with a 'WTF is wrong with you?' moment after the 3rd...
Maybe he did these things? We don't know.
Would a player - any player - get a chance to carelessly fumble away the ball three times in one game? Nope... Had Cade not been in the medical tent, McCarthy wouldn't have seen the field again after his carelessness earlier. Fumbling on a hard hit, when you're otherwise holding the ball tightly, is a thing that happens. Witness a Donovan Edwards fumble against NW (I think) - it was into the OL, with a good hit. He was holding the ball properly, and a great hit on the ball just knocked it out. He got a second chance (and carried again that game) because he wasn't being careless with the ball and hasn't demonstrated carelessness (ie: Christian Turner's fumble issues).
MacDonald wasn't just being careless, he was being flippant, dismissive, and arrogant. Whether the substitutions are on him or Nua doesn't matter. Harbaugh has to answer the heat from the issue. He needs to make sure that McD feels that heat.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:23 AM ^
okay. so it didnt happen in game. Are you confident the same issue wont come up again? Against Indiana.. or maryland.. or osu? this has long been an issue, and maybe its the norm. i dunno. we dont see it because we've never really run an effective tempo offense to force the other team into similar mistakes. Maybe its normal? Would love a few penalties to equate to a few great negative plays here and there...
November 5th, 2021 at 10:30 AM ^
Not sure what you're getting at...
Are the troubles with tempo going to be solved by tomorrow night? No. As you said, there's no historical evidence to show us that Michigan understands anything about tempo.
Are the illegal substitution penalties going to end by tomorrow night? I dunno... We have to hope so, but until we have such evidence, we can't say they will. We expect players to learn from mistakes and not repeat them. We should also expect coaches to learn from mistakes and not repeat them.
But we have decades of tempo issues to fall back on...
November 5th, 2021 at 12:17 PM ^
You reiterated my point. Whether or not you expect Harbaugh to yell and scream... its unrealistic to expect real-time change from the least changing dinosaur in the history of college fb (us). Game to game, i would hope, but as you said, we've had years to figure it out.
My second point was, maybe this is just normal and we have to stop demanding perfection. Since WE never run tempo with any consistency, its unlikely we'd ever see another team with the same issues. I think in year 1, its fair to expect some of this, but if its a methodology of mcdonald's to heavily rotate, then i think its to be expected long term.
My last point was, with all those substitutions, i hope as we accumulate better players on the DL who can play --- some positive for us (negative for the offense) comes from the freshness of the rotation, or at least having the right guys on for the right play to stuff key plays etc...
November 5th, 2021 at 9:06 PM ^
We just need to learn to get injured to slow down tempo
November 5th, 2021 at 12:57 PM ^
This should have been corrected four fucking games ago. I said so and they better be ready for MSU to exploit it, and they did.
November 5th, 2021 at 2:58 PM ^
1VaBlue1...Man, your reply made me hungry. Does anyone know what Cade is cooking today?
November 5th, 2021 at 10:47 PM ^
Christian Turner! Where did he end up again? I always liked him.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:20 AM ^
On the WTKA Roundtable, the guys seemed to think it was Macdonald as the constant substitutions is a pretty NFL thing to do
November 5th, 2021 at 10:21 AM ^
I don't really care or think it matters. Whoever is getting pantsed by college crappe, the other coaches shouldn't be allowing it. And if that guy isn't listening to even basic feedback and that's costing them games, that's a serious problem.
Unless the entire coaching staff is mystified by tempo, which is a problem of such scale I'd rather not contemplate.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:17 AM ^
It seems like each year we have a head scratching systematic coaching error that is baffling. I remember when MSU timed all our snap counts with Hoke year after year. Our inability stop the rpo or anyone with a running qb, then the crossing route exploitation. Now the ability to be prepared during up tempo offense. Making quick adjustments has never been our strong suit.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:49 AM ^
Don't forget every offense knowing what coverage Don Brown called during the last 2 years of his tenure. Yes, it sucks that we seem to have coaching weaknesses that go uncorrected every season.
November 5th, 2021 at 12:16 PM ^
I'm really not sure where this talking point came from. Of course they knew; Don Brown all but told the press the day he arrived that he ran press man. And for much of his tenure, his defenses were among the best in the country. We just ran out of talent, and then ran out of recruiters, to keep up with OSU's ability to roll out enough receivers to beat our third, fourth, fifth DB. Then he moved to basic zone in the last two years not to beat OSU per se, but because he'd completely run out of press man corners. His drag on the recruiting is a fair knock on his record, and I'll concede that he was let go when it was time to move on. But tricksy coverages, or lack thereof, was neither Brown's jam nor a shortcoming that got him fired.
And FWIW, Brown had no issues with tempo.
November 5th, 2021 at 12:58 PM ^
Brown had no issues with tempo because he left the starting 11 on the field the entire game.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:24 AM ^
What's amazing is that there is a simple solution if you get caught with your pants down in a tempo situation, call a freakin timeout! Any competent coach would do that especially in the first half.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:32 AM ^
The subs worked for 7 games and then they were exposed..a good coach will adjust and move forward.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:37 AM ^
Yep - I would tend to think its MacDonald getting burned on this because Nua really should know better as a college guy. If this is a good defensive staff, this won't happen again. If this happens again or OSU does it to us 10 times this month, I'm going to lower my hopes for MacDonald significantly.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:41 AM ^
Yeah, you can expect improvement from someone who learns from mistakes. If NFL guy got a little embarrassed by college crappe, we can move on. However, the fact that they were still getting burned late in the same game isn't encouraging.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:44 AM ^
I recall a couple snaps that hinted at this substitution issue in the Nebraska game. But yeah this is the first time it's really been exposed. Coaches deserve criticism on this issue but no need to think Mac or Nua are incompetent after one game. It's not easy to be flexible with packages/personnel with college kids mid-game. If they can't fix it going forward then it's time to really get on the coaches.
November 5th, 2021 at 1:42 PM ^
Yes and no, it worked because undefeated for 7 games. But they got caught several times by hurry up. So it was on MacDonald to adjust and be ready.
MacDonald is going to have to decide what he wants in his defense and have a LBER make a base call and he will need a few base calls that are automatic.
Now, what wasn't MacDonald's fault is this. I know on a couple plays as soon as the whistle was blown they send the sub in, that's when the players need to be looking to the sidelines to know who has to get off the field and who is on, as well as what the call is.
Extenuating, On a couple of those plays from the whistle, ie tackle the ref grabbed and spotted the ball within 3 seconds and 2 seconds later msu snapped the ball. Dang near impossible, the qb had to tell the ref and coach telling sideline ref they were in hurry up because it was spotted before half the team was up from the last play.
Here on out the defense has got to practice this because the refs didn't slow down one second. Avg time to spot a ball at the end of a play is 6-8 seconds and about 5-7 in a hurry up, so ball spotted for play in 3 seconds on several plays was more than impressive imo. I recall one play in my life where that happened for michigan when it had to, ie the last second fg kick vs nw to win under hoke. That's it..
November 5th, 2021 at 3:44 PM ^
The subs worked for 7 games and then they were exposed..a good coach will adjust and move forward.
This is false. The defensive subs and alignments have been god awful all season and most blatantly against Washington. My brother and I have been saying since the Washington game that better teams were going to "pants" us with this if it didn't get fixed. MSU was that better team, and we got pantsed repeatedly. And it's ignorant to think PSU and OSU won't be doing the same thing. Hate to be a debbie downer but its pretty telling if this wasn't an obvious vulnerability that was self-scouted and corrected by the 8th game, week 9. Really no excuse.
It doesn't need to be fixed "in 1 week", it's been in need of fixing all season.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:41 AM ^
My general feel for this is that position coaches are going to be involved in the actual work of their positions but that they’re executing the plans of guys up the chain.
I put the initial subs in the first half squarely on Macdonald. He’s the one determining what packages he wants, what coverages and play calls. And it has been stated explicitly that they were seeking matchups, which is a DC call.
The issue in the second half rests jointly on Macdonald and a bit on Harbaugh, because it should have been fixed.
There is zero chance that a position coach like Nua or Hart makes a sub call against the wishes of their superiors.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:07 AM ^
* Leaders.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:56 AM ^
And *best?
November 5th, 2021 at 12:49 PM ^
In this case, I'm making a pure chain-of-command reference. It's a noun, as in "one who is above another in rank, station, or office," per Merriam-Webster online.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:44 AM ^
Just say you created a post to blame Nua. It saves characters.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:45 AM ^
247 free article discussing this topic.
It's worth noting that Saturday was far from the first time Michigan has toed the line with its frequent rotation up front. Speaking with reporters this week, defensive lineman Mike Morris explained that the frequent substitutions is due to defensive coordinator Mike Macdonald's desire to have the right personnel on as many predictable downs as possible. Morris, for example, can be seen playing on the defensive interior on likely passing downs (52 overall snaps this season), an end role over offensive tackles on standard downs (44 snaps) and on the edge in likely rushing downs (97 snaps).
Beyond Morris, Michigan's specialization is seen all along the Wolverines' defensive front. The number of linebackers, edge defenders and tackles vary by the situation — perhaps a byproduct of Macdonald's NFL experience and inheriting a roster with players carrying the size, frames and skillsets for a different defensive coordinator.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:06 AM ^
Can a very small piece of the solution rest with the players?
I've noticed that after good defensive plays there is the usual mini-celebration. Rather than "celebrate," if the coaches and players understand that they are having substitution issues, perhaps instead they should be quickly looking at the sideline and allowing for a faster substitution.
Please do not misunderstand, this is only a minor issue in the entire process.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:25 AM ^
This would, again, be on the coaches to get them to do that. Natural reaction is to high five (ie: 'celebrate') a good play. Coaching drills learned behavior - 'do not celebrate, look to us for further instruction'.
But I don't like it... It's a game - players should be allowed to congrats a teammate for making a stop. If that second or two causes a penalty, then the coaches have other problems to worry about.
November 5th, 2021 at 12:54 PM ^
How the players react after a play with respect to getting on and off the field is still on the coaches.
November 5th, 2021 at 7:04 PM ^
I read earlier this year that Macdonald wants them to celebrate. One of the players said it.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:45 AM ^
EDIT: The post above mine is better.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:49 AM ^
Well, Jay Harbaugh was constantly blamed around here last year for the RB rotation.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:54 AM ^
Nua is not spelled H-A-R-B-A-U-G-H, so he has a fighting chance...
November 5th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
And it was wrong then, too.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:28 AM ^
Magically, Mike Hart started subbing running backs in and out as soon as he came to Michigan.
Here's the answer to the OP's question:
No DL coach or RB coach is going to put a player on the field as part of a regular rotation without having that substitution pattern discussed and approved by the coordinator/head coach.
Jim Harbaugh's not leaving his career arc up to the whims of some inexperienced DL coach wanting to substitute willy nilly.
November 5th, 2021 at 12:12 PM ^
I understand DL/RB coaches needing Jim's approval for plays/packages in terms of higher level scheming. But are they really going to be discussing individual personnel substitutions for those plays/packages?
Seems like that's a lot of headspace required for a HC. For RB because there's usually only 1 player I can see Jim saying "get Haskins in on short yardage or it's a blowout get Donovan in there" but I can't picture Jim saying "I want these 3 to 6 players in on the DL for this specific play".
November 5th, 2021 at 12:37 PM ^
Yes, they are. Coaching is a full-time job. They have guys that they trust in certain situations and guys that they don't.
They know what guys are good, and what guys aren't, and they know what their specific strengths and weaknesses are for specific tasks. They work hard at this, studying film, studying practice. They spend hours on it. So they know who is good at pass-rushing but not at stopping the run, who handles double-teams well and who is better knifing through gaps single-blocked. They know all of that. And in these cases we have different packages for specific situations; passing downs are a lot different than short yardage.
We've got quotes in the thread basically saying as much.
Now, the guy saying "I want these DLs" isn't Harbaugh, at least not directly. It's the DC. But Harbaugh is at least somewhat present in those meetings.
November 5th, 2021 at 1:23 PM ^
DOUBLE POST. Sorry.
November 5th, 2021 at 1:23 PM ^
If we can do it as a high school staff, then Michigan's coaches can do it.
Harbaugh isn't subbing on a per play basis. They're subbing in packages that they've worked on throughout the week/season.
If 3rd-and-8+ means they send in the NASCAR package, then the NASCAR package goes in. The coaches know throughout the week that Mike Morris, Mazi Smith, and Taylor Upshaw are on the NASCAR package, and they know who the backups are on that package, too (I made up those players and the package name).
Next week the NASCAR package might still be in on 3rd-and-8+, but the NT might be Donovan Jeter because he had a better week of practice, didn't get in trouble, etc.
I think a lot of people misunderestimate how detailed these coaches are.
November 5th, 2021 at 2:24 PM ^
Ah, makes sense
November 5th, 2021 at 10:52 AM ^
The buck stops at the DC and both are to blame. Mac Donald had better have learned his lesson because his defense will be seeing a lot more up tempo offensive schemes for the rest of the season.
It would help if our offense, Gattis-et al, did a little more of that. It's been done a few times but there needs to be more from that side of the ball.
November 5th, 2021 at 10:57 AM ^
I don't know either, but play #3 more. He is a run stopper!!!
November 5th, 2021 at 11:18 AM ^
Irregardless of who is making these substitutions, it’s on Harbaugh to notice guys not getting off the field or guys majorly out of position or trying to get settled and then use a timeout. I use the same analogy as players trying to get lined up on offense and the play clock is winding down, coaches always use timeouts. This isn’t the first time this has happened this year and timeouts should have been used then as well. To me, lack of game management falls on Harbaugh. Under him we have struggled with using tempo and defending it, I’d say there is a common denominator.
November 5th, 2021 at 11:31 AM ^
"...I’d say there is a common denominator."
There sure is! And that the common denominator you complain about is Michigan football itself. Not since Fritz Crisler was running the Mad Magicians has Michigan effectively used - or defended - tempo. Okay, so Rich Rod used tempo effectively as an offensive scheme, but he sure couldn't defend it.
Tempo has been a systemic issue to Michigan football for generations. Unless you just need to blame Harbaugh, he is decidedly not a common denominator here...
November 5th, 2021 at 11:40 AM ^
Other coaches were bad so being bad is okay? This fan base, yikes.