December 18th, 2023 at 7:58 PM ^
Fuq, he's a Duq.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:26 PM ^
Fuq, he's a Duq, and that Suqs.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:41 PM ^
At least he is not a Buq.
December 19th, 2023 at 2:03 AM ^
And he'll be playing neither for the sparties nor for Tuq.
December 18th, 2023 at 7:51 PM ^
December 18th, 2023 at 8:05 PM ^
Seriously. I feel like we do this every day. Always the bridesmaid....at what point does winning pay off for us on the recruiting trail?! So tired of watching all of these 5*'s go the other way...not holding my breath for Underwood either. I know how this story ends.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:09 PM ^
As far as 5-stars are concerned, it will probably pay off only if UM decides to pay out, up front, in big $.
That's not Michigan's current model. (Understatement ...) They seem to be doing fine. It would be nice to have more 5-stars, but it was nice to get proven quantities (several starter-quality players) through the portal last year.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:21 PM ^
Sure, but it would be disingenuous to say we're doing fine without also acknowledging that it's been largely on the backs of our 5 star QB and virtually 5 star running back these last two years. It would be hubris to just assume that we'll continue to own the conference and get to the playoff every year once our skill position players drop back down to levels more in line with our historical recruiting ability. Granted, the new playoff model should help, but still. JJs and Corums don't just grow on trees, and we certainly don't pull talent like that in every recruiting cycle.
It'll be interesting to see how much longer we'll have to wait until all players are paid via revenue sharing, proper salaries and contracts are put in place, and all the major programs join a single mega conference. This and only this is going to have a chance at leveling the playing field. As long as programs like ours feel self-righteous and sanctimonious about doing NIL the "right" way while others are out there laying down $$ up front, there will be heavy imbalance across programs.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:36 PM ^
Weren’t JJ, Donovan, Blake, and Will Johnson all 5 stars to at least one service? Aren’t they kinda how M scores points and make the offensive line look even better?
Seems like M needs a bunch more players of this caliber.
December 18th, 2023 at 10:39 PM ^
What service had Corum a 5*?
December 18th, 2023 at 10:45 PM ^
Rivals graded him 5.9, #135 overall. That is close. So he was a high 4.
December 19th, 2023 at 7:50 AM ^
There are usually ~25-30 five stars each year, so being 135 overall is not really that close to being a five star.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:41 PM ^
Amen, man. We do an incredible job finding and developing talent. But we don't have the run we've had without JJ, Edwards, Will Johnson, and Dax Hill.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:58 PM ^
Uh, we won the B1G with Cade McNamara at QB. Sure having 5 stars is nice and certainly raises the floor, and we would be better obviously, but tens win with 4 star dudes.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:01 PM ^
JJ played alot that year and we would not have won as much without him
December 18th, 2023 at 9:21 PM ^
What are you taking about? No he didn’t.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:26 PM ^
In 2021 JJ played in 11 games and threw for 516 yards and 5 tds and had 124 yards rushing and 2 tds..so yea, he played alot
That is not some player who comes in during a blow out he was playing
December 18th, 2023 at 9:40 PM ^
First, insofar as the main point under discussion is the importance of recruiting, I absolutely agree that stars matter, and JJ > Cade.
However, claiming that JJ's contributions in 2021 significantly altered our W-L record is laughable.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:48 PM ^
Totally agree on the stars matter especially at QB
I am not saying we won all the games only because JJ played but I highly doubt we have the same record just with Cade as QB either, thats all.
December 18th, 2023 at 10:21 PM ^
I mean -- mostly. I know both Harbaugh and Corum said the fumble in the MSU game was on him, but maybe Cade gives him a better exchange.
So you could plausibly argue that without JJ, Michigan is 13-0 in the regular season, gets the #1 seed, beats Cincinnati, and goes on to lose to the Georgia / Alabama winner.
But you certainly can't argue that they'd have lost more games in 2021 without JJ.
December 19th, 2023 at 12:01 AM ^
Closest I could find was this this 6 yard run to set up the first down. Corum scores in a 29 yard rush on the next play, to put Michigan up 26-22 in the 4th quarter against Nebraska. Michigan goes on to win 32-29. If McCarthy doesn't pick up that first down, does Michigan go on to win? We'll never know.
December 19th, 2023 at 2:04 AM ^
So you could plausibly argue that without JJ, Michigan is 13-0 in the regular season, gets the #1 seed, beats Cincinnati, and goes on to lose to the Georgia / Alabama winner.
Unfortunately we were always going to play UGA. If we had gone 13-0, yes, we probably would have been the #1 seed, but they would have slotted Cinci third and UGA fourth, with the justification that UGA was the last team in (but really just to avoid the first-round rematch with Bama). Would have screwed us over as the top seed, but that doesn't seem to be a priority of the committee (they did the same thing last year, putting OSU at #4 instead of TCU to avoid the rematch with us).
What really screwed us was UGA losing to Bama. If UGA wins like they should have, we either get Cinci or ND, both of which were very beatable (although if we came in looking like we did against TCU, might still have lost)...
December 19th, 2023 at 4:06 AM ^
Uhhh, we really wanna argue that JJ didn't contribute to the W-L record in '21?
😬
I admire you and everyone who upvoted you and you're ability to forget.
As a sidenote, you all can argue that he "significantly altered" wins (which I don't think anyone was ever saying - you added that because it helps your argument). But he damn sure had some key plays that contributed to them.
His presence and ability to run opened up holes for Corum (B1GCG vs. Iowa comes to mind, extending drives in other games). He throw an absolute dot to Roman Wilson down the sideline against OSU (then did it again 2 years later for a TD) and had a run that got us down to the 1 in that game.
Maybe his impact is comparable to Mullings this year? Maybe Semaj Morgan?
We're winning games without those guys, but they had a few key plays in key moments...and like JJ, they scored non-mop-up duty TDs. Which is probably where the comment is coming from, not "significantly altered our W-L." Semantics matters in this discussion.
December 19th, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^
I'm responding to an exchange in which wetnoodle made this claim:
"JJ played alot that year and we would not have won as much without him."
By "won as much" I take him to mean that his contributions added a couple of wins (minimally) to our record. By "significant" I mean that it changed the complexion of our season in a meaningful way, which doesn't seem different than what wetnoodle was arguing.
I remember perfectly well the plays that JJ made throughout the season, including those you cite. All the same, he ate some of the snaps Cade might have otherwise completed. My assumption is that our record could have just as easily been 13-0 or 11-2 w/o JJ. I don't in any way disagree with how he was employed, but wetnoodle overstates the case, and assumes that none of us remembered JJ entering the game in non-mop-up settings, but still to the tune of roughly 50 yds. of passing a game.
I agree with your Mullings and Morgan comp. By claiming that "we're winning games without those guys," you're agreeing with me, and not the original premise that I was denying.
December 19th, 2023 at 8:22 AM ^
So he averaged less than 50 yards passing and about 11 yards rushing per game. Not a lot.
December 19th, 2023 at 8:59 AM ^
I love JJ so I hate to say this, but the only game that he swung was the State game that year and he didn't win it for us...
December 18th, 2023 at 9:24 PM ^
Cade was a highly touted recruit. Top 10 QB in his class.
December 18th, 2023 at 10:49 PM ^
He cracked the top 10 for “pro style,” meaning not very mobile, but he wasn’t a top 10 QB overall. He also didn’t crack the top 250 of all players. Brian was only moderately optimistic in his MGoblog McNamara recruiting profile and foretold that he would come up short in his future battle with McCarthy.
https://mgoblog.com/content/2019-recruiting-cade-mcnamara
December 18th, 2023 at 11:03 PM ^
He was like 282 in the composite and a 4 star.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:55 PM ^
No. It’s been the defense and offensive line that are the drivers of this program. Both are filled with 3 and 4 stars.
Sainristil, Jenkins, Graham, Moore, McGregor, Corum, Wilson, Loveland, Zinter, Keegan, Johnson, etc. These are the guys who make Michigan football what it is today.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:34 PM ^
I agree with this, but given how Michigan gets in trouble any time it does things the way other schools do, maybe that's a deterrent to that approach?
December 19th, 2023 at 12:27 PM ^
I hate to break it to you, but revenue sharing won’t level the playing field. It creates a floor, not a ceiling, on what 5-stars get paid.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:23 PM ^
True, it was nice to get proven starters and quality players to fill gaps last year. But it also has been scary quiet so far this year with so many top players already signing elsewhere. We are going to have tons of spots to fill, particularly on offense. Need to start making moves soon.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:51 PM ^
I think it's time to consider that we can have a good culture and do a lot more in NIL at the same time. I think finding a middle ground of players who want to be paid to come here and also work hard is better than limiting your options so much by being hellbent that we can't pay anyone like literally any other program.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:26 PM ^
Honestly, who gives a shit? We're doing just fine by NOT signing prima donna 5 stars.
December 18th, 2023 at 8:52 PM ^
We do have three prominent 5 stars on the team in Mccarthy, Will Johnson, and Donovan Edwards. In a few years , we won't have any.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:04 PM ^
Edwards isn’t playing like one.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:13 PM ^
He does not even play like a 4 star..3 star tops
December 19th, 2023 at 4:19 AM ^
How exactly does a 3 star play? And what does he need to do to play like a 4 star?
Because Mike Sainristil was a 3*...and I would assume you think he's playing like a 5*. Correct?
So by this ass backwards logic that is only used to shit on a current player, we actually have MORE 5*'s on this team.
J.J., Corum, Wilson?, Loveland, Keegan?, Zinter, Jenkins?, Graham, McGregor?, Colson?, Barrett, Harrell?, Johnson, Sainristil, and Moore? are all 5* or 4.5* players.
You can't call Edwards a 3* and not bump up other guys...which would defeat the original argument that Michigan doesn't have 5*'s.
December 18th, 2023 at 10:56 PM ^
He did last year, and I think the last two OSU games could’ve gone the other way without him and if it was McNamara at QB instead of McCarthy. Michigan has done a great job of developing less heralded recruits, but there’s a ceiling without at least a few stars.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:37 PM ^
I guess I don't know Moore well enough to comment on whether he's a attention seeking guy, and it's not fair for a middle aged dude like me to pass judgement on kid, but from what I've heard initial indication seems like he may not necessarily be a real team player. So with that said, with Jadyn and Carter in the fold... I think we'll be just fine.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:08 PM ^
No but a lot of our important players in this run since 2021 were composite top 100 recruits (many of whom are 5 stars) signed before NIL was so important in recruiting. JJ, Donovan, Will Johnson, Corum, Dax Hill, Aidan, Mazi, and Junior Colson just to name a few. The 2023 & 2024 classes have a lot less top 100 players than we usually do. This will be the first time we’ve gone two consecutive classes without signing a 5* since 2012 & 2013. We’ll find out in the coming seasons if we can sustain this level of success with a dip in recruiting relative to what the 2021-2023 were made up of.
December 18th, 2023 at 9:51 PM ^
Without a talent reload, Michigan will just fade and be another version of Wisconsin when they won three B10 championships in a row.
December 19th, 2023 at 4:32 AM ^
No they will not.
This is what folks like you don't seem to grasp.
Recruiting rankings factor in NFL projections and how early a kid will play.
You all can bitch and moan about 5* talent all you want. But Michigan's model is sustainable because it takes those non-5* guys and develops them over 3 years.
So guess what, by the time they're ready to play? THEY ARE A FUCKING FIVE STAR!
Was Giovanni El-Hadi a 5*? No.
No close your eyes and add Giovanni El-Hadi to this year's recruiting class. Where do you think he would rank? He would ABSOLUTELY be a 5* in this class of 2024.
You're not getting 5 years from a 5* anyway. So yes, it's awesome that Will Johnson started late his freshman year. But he's done after next season.
Meanwhile, we have guys who contribute just as much as Will did as a freshman...and we will get 2-3 years out of them as well.
Ernest Hausmann a 5*? Nope. But this year was similar to Will's freshman year and if he's 1st team All-B1G next year and the year after? Guess what? He's basically a 5*.
Derrick Moore, Kenneth Grant, maybe Keon Sabb...all have two more years of eligibility. So if they're true freshman this year...you get two years from them and then they're off to the NFL. Why does it matter that it's Year 2, Year 3, and Year 4?
You need some 5* recruits because you do need some guys to come in and play right away.
But tell me, what is wrong with having Mike Sainristil? Another guy that if he was a true freshman in 2021, he's a 5*.
The point? Being a 5* out of HS sounds great. But "playing like a 5*" for two years in your career...is just as good.
Also, a team full of 5* recruits is just going to have a shit ton of guys in the portal every year. But that's not even the point I'm making.
December 19th, 2023 at 4:37 AM ^
When a kid redshirts, you should almost automatically move them to the next class and re-rank them.
That's at least how I tend to think about it. They have the same eligibility (4 years) as the incoming class. And some of those guys would be a "5 star" in the next class. Keon Sabb immediately comes to mind. He's a top 25 player in the class of 2023.
And if that were the case, you would have ZERO expectation for him to play past 2025. Because every Top 25 player in this '23 class is expected to be 3 and done as soon as they touch campus.
December 19th, 2023 at 9:27 AM ^
Except for the fact that a top QB is what makes a team elite and capable of winning titles. There is a reason that Michigan has done so much better the last two seasons and it is because they have an elite QB.
More talent is a good thing. People cannot be serious if they think Michigan would be better with a gritty 3* qb over Underwood in a few years.
December 19th, 2023 at 2:13 AM ^
This will be the first time we’ve gone two consecutive classes without signing a 5* since 2012 & 2013.
That's kind of shocking honestly, since it feels like we rarely get 5*s. But I guess we got Peppers in 2014, Gary in 2016, Aubrey Solomon in 2017 and Dax Hill in 2019 before our current guys in 2021-2022...
December 18th, 2023 at 8:41 PM ^
Sam had some positive feelings about Underwood. Nowhere near done but it’s not out of the question. The Game helped.