Awesome Finish to WMU v. Toledo: How is this not deception?
Wednesday Night MACtion. WMU fought back to close Toledo's lead to 4 points with 20 seconds to go in the game. WMU comes up to the line, 1st and Goal, with no timeouts. They line up to spike the ball and then only one WMU player runs a route. Easy TD. Game. How is the play Michigan ran with a receiver on the far hash considered deception, and this is not. I see a spike similar to a QB slide. Once you make the motion, the play should be dead, right?
November 12th, 2020 at 9:19 AM ^
I didn't see the game but the bigger question to me is whether that receiver was subbed from the sideline and just spotted up out wide. That should have triggered the "deceptive" penalty. If he was already on the field, it's fine. Pretending to spike the ball is also fine.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:30 AM ^
Yes. The full name of the penalty is "substitution with intent to deceive," which that ref in that game a few years ago unfortunately shortened to "intent to deceive."
As far as I can tell, that WR was also on the field for the previous play, and the offense did not make any substitutions at all, so "substitution with intent to deceive" is not a possibility--there was no substitution so the rule does not come into effect.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:22 AM ^
There was definitely a whistle right as the ball was being snapped which should have negated it. Fake spikes have always been ok. Deception usually occurs when there is a late sub and the wideout only steps inches onto the field or some other pre-play action (usually faking substitutions or the like). Trick plays aren't really deception -- deception is more pre-play.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:29 AM ^
The whistle was to roll the clock since the previous play was in-bounds but netted a first down, therefore there was a temporary stop to set the chains. Once the whistle blew Western was free to snap the ball. I think Western snapped the ball so quickly after the whistle blew (and good for Tim Lester for actually coaching a 2 minute drill correctly, some other coaches should take notes...) Toledo assumed it was for the QB actually spiking it. There was nothing illegal about the play at all. Western made no substitutions and there are no rules against a fake spike.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:45 AM ^
Isn't the whistle for a clock starting usually more elongated?
November 12th, 2020 at 9:49 AM ^
I guess it is ref by ref, but I would imagine it is not. I have not paid that close of attention but the whistle blowing in that situation is usually similar to the whistle blowing to start the play-clock (but not the game clock) in applicable situations, which is usually a short, somewhat muted whistle, like the whistle for the end of a play. Usually a long, louder whistle is for the game clock and play clock starting simultaneously after a dead ball. Since this was not a dead ball situation I would personally expect the former and not the latter. I guess I will try to pay attention to this in the next game I watch because I am curious now.
Edit: Alton below also makes a good point I had not thought of.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
That's what I was thinking of -- the usual "start the clock" whistle. I get you now.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
Officials have the option this year of using "automatic whistles" (some sort of hand-held whistle-sound-making device) rather than having to lower their masks to blow a whistle.
The effect, of course, is that every whistle sounds the same.
Edit: here's a link to an NCAA officials association directive regarding automatic whistles. It specifically mentions the ready-for-play as an occasion when the automatic whistle should be used:
November 12th, 2020 at 9:24 AM ^
I agree that seems like should be flagged for "intent to deceive". Here's the clip from when it was called on us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm6ZVjoEPt4&ab_channel=RafaMiras
The refs and the announcers seem to be making a big deal about the substitution part...someone with more rule smarts then me: Does that matter? Is there something in the rules that talks about or emphasizes substitutions in regards to "intent to deceive"?
There's also the more easy explanation that it was called against us because refs hate us...
November 12th, 2020 at 9:28 AM ^
I can't tell for sure on the film, but my guess is the player never came inside the numbers. Between each snap, all players must present inside the numbers or they are an illegal participant.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:31 AM ^
Interesting. I never knew that.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:56 AM ^
The full rule, 7-1-3-b-1: "[Offensive] players who participated in the previous down must have been between the nine-yard marks after the previous down and before the next snap"
On an NCAA field, the nine-yard limit is at the top of the numbers. If an NCAA game is held on an NFL field, there are little hash marks on each 5-yard-line to show where the nine-yard limit is.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:36 AM ^
The refs 100% kicked that call against us. Jake Butt was on the field for the previous play and did not exit the huddle with the other players that left the field, nor did he go to the sideline and then step back on the field. If he was on the sideline and jumped on the field, he would have to lineup inside the numbers, but since he was already on the field he can lineup 2 steps from the sideline if he wants.
He did leave the huddle before the other players that were in for that play did but there is no rule against that. Just a miserable call. I am still bitter as well that my junior high football team got called for a deception penalty under similar circumstances that was also bogus.
Edit: I guess I was slightly off based upon what Alton wrote above but the larger part stands.
November 12th, 2020 at 11:43 AM ^
Dan Marino did the same exact thing some years ago. Nothing illegal at all. Shame on UT for not having someone on the receiver.
November 12th, 2020 at 4:14 PM ^
The applicable rule called against M way back when was 9.2.2.B, using a tactic associated with the substitution process to confuse opponents.
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=12276.msg122987#msg122987
The only rule against deception I could find when the ball is in play is 9.2.2.a: "No player shall conceal the ball in or beneath his clothing or equipment or substitute any other article for the ball."
November 12th, 2020 at 9:25 AM ^
The deception play against NW a couple years ago was quite different. In that play, the WR was sprinting to the sideline like he was being substituted out, while another WR that was already next to the sideline stepped out. Meanwhile, a player was sprinting in to the huddle from the sideline. The effect was that only 10 were in the huddle, with #11 only two yards from the sideline. What NW saw was a player running out, and a player running in. What they missed was the guy that just stepped out.
Now, only the refs believe that play was 'illegal'. OF FUCKING COURSE IT WAS DECEPTIVE!!! The offense and defense both do deceptive things in every play to make the other guy think about what's going to happen, and be wrong!
The play you posted was perfectly fine - you play to the whistle. Case closed. Play to whistle while defending the guys on the field, and you probably win that game instead of losing like a loser.
Of course, in the last two games Michigan believes that a QB faking a run handoff as he drops back to pass is as good a fake today as it was when Bo ran. This play would be quite an improvement - I hope Michigan incorporates it for the next 2nd & 9 they face...
November 12th, 2020 at 9:26 AM ^
The “deception” name for the penalty is deceptive. It’s not actually about all attempts to deceive. Every play in football is an attempt to deceive, except for the Michigan offense.
November 12th, 2020 at 10:39 AM ^
You mean run up the middle twice and throw in 3rd and long is not fooling anyone? ?
November 12th, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
what a dumb rule.
November 12th, 2020 at 9:57 AM ^
So you think that having a WR run a route while the rest of the offense doesn’t move is in the same deception category as what Michigan did?
November 12th, 2020 at 9:59 AM ^
I think we’re burying the lede here by not mentioning that WMU was able to successfully execute an onside kick prior to this play.
We could have sure used that kicker vs. MSU
November 12th, 2020 at 1:26 PM ^
It was even the exact same two-kicker dribbler Harbaugh drew up!
November 12th, 2020 at 9:19 PM ^
The punter/kickoff specialist was a badass for diving into a pile of Toledo kickoff guys to get the recovery at the bottom of the scrum. Kickers are football players too.
November 12th, 2020 at 10:04 AM ^
Because that's not what the rule says, fartsniffer.
November 12th, 2020 at 10:16 AM ^
How is a fake spike deceptive? The deception is pretending to sub a guy out and just "hiding" him near the sideline - almost like when the late subs are trying to run off the field before the same but not intending to sub him. Whether the call in our game was correct or not isn't relevant here as they were lined up normally and Toledo just assumed they were spiking it so didn't bother playing defense
November 12th, 2020 at 10:29 AM ^
May have had the intent to spike the ball until Toledo did not cover the wide receiver.
November 12th, 2020 at 11:57 AM ^
It's not illegal to deceive after the ball has been snapped.
November 12th, 2020 at 12:16 PM ^
There's no difference between a quarterback's pump fake toward a receiver or a fake spike - both can pull a defender and open up a passing lane and both are done with the quarterback's arm motion.
November 12th, 2020 at 1:23 PM ^
Paddle the Canoe!!
November 12th, 2020 at 3:26 PM ^
You can fake spike but you can't fake kneel
November 12th, 2020 at 9:24 PM ^
There was another big game decision that got missed in the WMU comeback - Toledo was driving up 3 with under 3 minutes to go. The have 4th and 11 inside the WMU 30. Instead of kicking a field goal to go up 6, they go for it. And, they convert on a throw short of the sticks that the RB muscled to get the 1st down. They score a TD on the next play to go up 10. WMU may have let them score but the 4th down call was ballsy regardless - more than 99% of cases, that would have won the game for them. It's MACtion