15-yard PI in college; and outdated rule?
The way college football has changed toward the pro model, this seems like a rule that needs to change. It's cost us multiple times this year, OSU, TCU, where DB's have tackled our WR's deep in the red zone and we get 15yds out of it. Maybe it's benefitted us too, but seems like a get-out-of-jail-free card for the DB's. Not exactly sure why the rule exists in its present form, anyway, as it's the most asymmetric rule in the book. Even dumber is that the NCAA rule is the 2-yard line if it happens in the end-zone on throw inside the 15, while the NFL is the 1 yard-line. Both should be the one-inch line.
January 2nd, 2023 at 10:58 AM ^
sorry for typo
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:01 AM ^
With how inconsistent DPI calls are in college, would you really want this? Even more power to stripes to decide games.
No thanks. Rule isn’t perfect but it is what it is.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
This is the correct take. College officiating is nowhere near as good as the pros. I'd rather have 15 yards.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:25 AM ^
Counter point based on root cause analysis (aka the eye test) - HIRE AND TRAIN PROFESSIONAL REFS! Tons of $$$ floating around college football yet we have referee crews being held together with balsa wood and mud - why?
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^
I think they said during the broadcast the Fiesta Bowl trophy is worth $1.4M. That should be enough to hire a professional crew for a season.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
…Fiesta Bowl trophy is worth $1.4M.
Spits out coffee.
January 2nd, 2023 at 5:14 PM ^
The football on top has 4000 diamonds. They had it sitting outside the stadium before the game - it’s gaudy as hell, but impressive.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:26 PM ^
Putting aside not only the source of money and the capex vs salary differences, even $1.4 is not enough for an annual set of refs. Even if you limit this to the conference, you need at least 7 crews of 7 officials each plus reserves (not sure how many but let’s just go with the least at one extra per crew) that 56 officials. That’s an average of $25,000/year per official.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:27 PM ^
This guy finances.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:22 PM ^
There's simply not enough money for that.
- NCAA EXECS (shit-eating grin, feet on desk, cigar in mouth blowing $$$ signs, tumbler of scotch in hand)
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
Yeah I’m not in favor of poor officiating having even more of a say in the outcome of games. If anything, I don’t like the NFL rule
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:42 PM ^
Yup, this is the answer. The spot foul in the NFL is dumb. The NFL rule also assumes that the receiver would have made the catch without “interference” which is a major assumption.
I think NCAA also has it correct with not having to be “down by contact”.
I’d also like to see the holding penalty decreased from 10 to 5 yards but called a lot more often.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Yes, this is a bad rule. Also, players should be down by contact, not when any part of the body beside the hand touches the ground.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:22 AM ^
While I agree the 15 yd DPI rule should remain unchanged, down by contact is a rule I'd like to see changed to match the NFL. It would allow talented playmakers to continue plays if they're able to.
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:27 PM ^
Was literally going to comment this. 15 yard DPI is fine, but being down by contact needs to be implemented.
January 2nd, 2023 at 1:55 PM ^
Disagree on the down by contact. I see no real advantage to the NFL rule. We would have a lot more fumbles and be debating them a lot more, we’d be debating “was he touched?” With more stoppage time. Then we’d have guys slipping falling and the defense coming into tackle them when they are on the ground defenseless potentially leading to even more injuries. No thanks.
January 2nd, 2023 at 2:43 PM ^
Did you see what happened Saturday? Down by contact would be a great rule to implement.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
The same basic rules should be the same between the two leagues. I’m fine with the NFL having narrower hashes and longer PAT’s but PI should be the same. Dumb to have different rules for the same game.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:34 AM ^
Every sport has different rules as you move up levels.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:09 AM ^
I've always thought there should be two levels of pass interference at the pro and college level. Level 1 would be incidental and would be a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down. Level 2 would be intentional and would be a spot foul (and automatic first down).
I grant you that implementing those levels would cause a great deal of controversy with the officiating and may not be worth it. But I've always thought the pro and college rules are either too punitive or not punitive enough, and that would solve it IMO.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
I see where you’re coming from, but agree most with your last point. Giving refs more discretion to determine intent is a terrible idea - after all these years nobody really knows what targeting is and don’t even get me started on the failure to consistently call offensive holding
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^
Didn't they scrap the 5 yd incidental facemask because of difficulty in determining between incidental and non-incidental facemasks.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^
Is it a failure to consistently call holding or is it by design? I think the powers that be like offense and aren’t interested in impeding it with post snaps penalties unless it’s egregious.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:11 AM ^
I like the pro rule vs the college rule. Too easy for a burned defender to tackle a defender for a 15 yards penalty vs making them think whether that same decision is worth the spot foul or seeing if the receiver can make a catch
January 2nd, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^
Yeah but the spot foul not only punishes the defense but it then gives credit for a catch to the offense that is in no way guaranteed. Does a WR make a catch 100% of the time a ball is thrown their way when they aren’t interfered with? Of course not, but the NFL assumes that they do which is a mistake. A WR still has to complete the catch, with possession, in bounds, with an accurate throw from the qb.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
I think the NFL DPI rule is too punitive. It assumes the probability the receiver makes the catch would be 100% if the DPI didn’t take place. I think the college rule is better with the possible exception of 2 yd line vs. the 1 for DPI in the end zone.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:05 PM ^
I'm with you here. The NFL rule gives an outsized reward for the offense relative to other fouls. For OPI, for example, the stakes aren't nearly as high, so it has always struck me as a bit unbalanced. That said, over last couple of decades they've let defenders increasingly put their hands on receivers, allow hand fighting, etc., which has leveled out the advantage somewhat.
My 82-year old father still yells "That's pass interference! Throw the flag!" on nearly every deep ball in football, still thinking he's watching Terry Bradshaw to Lynn Swann no matter how many times I say, "Dad, they allow that now." But he throws up his arms in disgust, wondering what happened to the game he played in college. I suspect we're all headed there at some point. : )
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
With the real-time predictive stats available now, they should use catch probabilities to award yardage based on expected value of the play.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:27 PM ^
Yes, it assumes a catch but every penalty has that assumption. O line holding assumes DE would make sack, for instance. The player gets the benefit of the doubt since they weren't allowed to attempt.
counter would be that those are 10 yards and not spot foul. But take block in the back, block in the back assumes player would make tackle and can negate a 100 yard td, so it's equally punitive.
For a nice balance, I'd say make dpi a lessor of 25 yard penalty or spot foul.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
No it's perfect. Can't assume the guy will catch
I think the NFL should have degrees of pass interference. There's the obvious major ones which would spot fouls, and then the other marginals which would be just 15.
Too many low possession NFL games are decided on weak pass interference calls.
May be a feature not a bug.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Exactly. To me that’s the difference. In the NFL, it is far more reasonable to assume a catch by the receiver. In college, the skill level is significantly lower except for the top tier. 15 yards and a first down seems reasonable.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^
My idea that I've had for 20 years:
Foul occurs 15 yards or less from LOS = spot foul.
Foul occurs 15-30 yards from LOS = 15 yards.
Foul occurs 30+ yards from LOS = half the distance to the spot of the foul.
My problem with the pure spot foul idea is that it presumes the catch. There are many instances when the WR has no realistic chance to make the catch even without the penalty, and yet the NFL awards the offense as if the catch would have been a given.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
I like the idea, but seeing how the refs can’t even get spots right (our INT on TCU 49 marked at Mich 49!), would they be able to reliably do the math to figure out what the penalty should be? More reviews!!!
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
Too many options. Every pass defense penalty in the NFL is an automatic first down. This is aimed at making incidental holding and illegal contact calls outside five yards from the LOS, not the same as PI or as punitive even if the intent is similar. First downs are more favorable options for NFL offenses than yardage mark-offs because it gives teams greater opportunity for scoring plays.
The NFL PI rule is as old as the league and was put in play to prevent defensive players from preventing scoring plays by physically obstructing receiver moves and catches in late-game situations.
Over time, of course, the level of contact between receivers and defenders has become more debatable in terms of actually determining what should be allowed before a PI penalty is flagged.
I would rather college alter the down-by-contact rule than a spot foul for PI. College still applies the same yardage mark-offs as the pros for illegal chop blocks, personal fouls and offensive holding. But there are differences in the composite of defensive holding and PI calls within a certain area at the college and pro level. I don't think there is great need to change either way.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:24 AM ^
I prefer the college rule. The NFL rule is too harsh. It's not a certainty the player would have caught it.
15 yards and a first down is a significant punishment. The only time it may seem insufficient is right at the end of a half, like against TCU. But honestly, I don't think an offense should be able to drive the field just because of one penalty. That really incentivizes flopping to draw the flag.
Anyway, those 15 yards against TCU added up - putting us in Moody's range.
Even dumber is that the NCAA rule is the 2-yard line if it happens in the end-zone on throw inside the 15, while the NFL is the 1 yard-line. Both should be the one-inch line.
Also disagree. The offense still needs to earn the TD. PI in the end zone gives them a fresh set of downs, but it's still on them to get those two yards, as it should be.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
You can argue that the NFL spot rule is also a get-out-of-jail free cards for QBs and WRs on poorly and under thrown deep passes. Why should the offense be rewarded with an entire length of the field drive after one incomplete pass? The spot rule is worse in that it gives zero room for error for the defender and all the power of the offense is in the refs’ decision to call or not call even the slightest contact. With how offense-centric the game already is, I don’t want to watch desperate offenses go hunting for easy 50 yard long penalties by baiting the refs into calling DPI. Shags’ proposition is a fine one, but you would need strict language to define “incidental” and “intentional” so that refs have a clear choice when calling those two levels of DPI. That’s not something that I see being easily implemented.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
I think the rule the way it is suits the college game just fine. there are already instances where teams essentially run a DPI play. I would hate to see it become more common.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
I agree with you on the 1 yard line. But, in general, there’s a bigger talent disparity in college, and I feel like keeping it at 15 gives teams with less talent a chance to try to keep up. It does make games more entertaining imho.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
Right off the top, I think of Will Johnson spinning around Chucksizzle in Indy. Glad it was only 15 yards.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:54 AM ^
As a Michigan fan you should be happy that the 15 yard penalty exists in college football for PI calls.
January 2nd, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
I would propose either a 15 yard penalty or half the distance between the line of scrimmage and the yard the foul occurred (which ever is greater). To me, this rewards the O with more yards on long throws to keep the DBs a little more honest.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:01 PM ^
No. It’s harder for college athletes to defend without interference so I like that it’s not called on every play and that it’s only 15 yards.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:13 PM ^
Call me strange, but I am actually not terribly fond of the NFL rule on this, and given how up and down and up and down college officiating can be, the 15 yards seems like a better solution to me. If college officiating were more consistent and more about the technical nature of the rules, if that were even possible given the speed of the game, then I might listen more to this.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^
I think a good compromise would placing the ball at the midpoint between the spot of the foul and the LOS with an automatic first down.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^
Officials in college football aren't good enough or consistent enough for this.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
Outdated rule #2
Current scholarship #'s. The scholarship numbers allowed should be returned to 105 due to the increasingly long seasons in which NCAA football has decided to entertain. I know people will jump on here and say "but NIL" that doesn't matter, not every program is NIL rich. After watching the Michigan bowl game I thought to myself how nice it would be to have more depth due to all the sustained injuries, and that goes for every team.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^
Scholarship limits are to help Title IX compliance. If you go back to 105, schools have to come up 20 more women’s scholarships, which are costly as women’s sports rarely make a profit. Either that, or cut 20 more men’s scholarships in other sports.
Probably better to just use NIL as a way around this.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:50 PM ^
I'd love to know how many universities are in strict Title IX compliance. My guess is very few.
January 2nd, 2023 at 4:08 PM ^
Not sure how profitability of the sport the athletes play matters. 40 more scholarships (20 men and 20 women) cost a certain amount regardless of whether the sport they play is profitable or not.
January 2nd, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
The college rule is OK as it is. It was put in place because the NFL rule was too much for the defensive and encouraged deep heaves on the hope that a flag would be thrown. If we continue the primary rush philosophy then the pro rule would seem to favor teams like Ohio that are more pass based.