A Data-Driven Response to the “Fire Harbaugh” and “Unacceptable” Crowd: What Trade-Offs are You Willing to Make to Win?

Submitted by jcorqian on December 1st, 2019 at 5:48 PM

Conclusion: Michigan will – in all likelihood (e.g., 90%+ probability) lose every year to Ohio State unless we recruit better (defined as being within 2 – 3 spots of OSU through the 247 Sports composite rankings) because we will never outcoach OSU by a margin that is wide enough to overcome the talent deficit (they have lots of money invested in football and can hire top-of-the-line coaches too).  The key to recruiting better will be to do things that Michigan has traditionally condemned as unsavory in college football – yes, I am talking about viewing the sport not through the lens of amateurism and the student-athlete experience, but through the lens of a semi-professional enterprise complete with money and a “football-first” mentality.  This is something that Harbaugh and the current administration is unwilling to do (at least at this time).  As a fanbase, ultimately we need to decide what’s more important: A) amateurism and the student-athlete experience and 9-4 / 10-3 type seasons without B10 championships or the playoffs, or B) shifting to a semi-professional enterprise and competing for B10 championships or the playoffs.

Note that I am not trying to support A or B (my personal opinion is to lean towards B only the sense of unleashing player payments but nothing else, FWIW).  I simply feel based on what I’ve been reading here on the blog that most people are not aware how binary A and B are as paths.  The goal of this diary is to hopefully get people to understand – through data – that Harbaugh has basically done as well as anyone can possibly do (and has more than met Michigan’s historical standard) without going down path B.  You all can obviously come to your own conclusion on what is “acceptable” to you, but I take issue with calling for Harbaugh’s head thinking that another coach can come in and do better while strictly adhering to path A.  Not going to happen based on the data.

Context:  Why am I writing this?  Well, unlike many I am not all too upset at the outcome of yesterday’s game.  Obviously, it sucks incredibly hard as a true, die-hard Michigan fan, but I am a firm believer in unhappiness generally coming from outcomes being worse than expectations.  My expectations were exceptionally low – like Magnus’ prediction of 42 – 17 at TTB, I also thought that we would get blown out.  I analyze data and predict outcomes for a living (I’m an equity investor) and would flatter myself in that I am more dispassionate and less emotional in coming to conclusions from data, even in things that I care deeply about.  On Wednesday before the Thanksgiving break, one of my PMs – who is a Wisconsin grad and a huge fan so extremely familiar with the B10 – asked me how many points I’d have to spot OSU for a bet on who buys lunch.  I told him three touchdowns, and two touchdowns if I was truly being a homer.  The data from each teams’ respective seasons simply told that story fairly clearly.

I’m not writing this because I’m upset at what happened yesterday; I am writing this because I find it incredibly annoying that so many people shit on Harbaugh so hard with endless hot takes (fire him!) after losses like this that can easily be seen from a mile away due to structural gaps in programs – yes, I am talking about recruitingUnless Michigan is willing to address these structural gaps, then we should be content with this outcome.  (Side note – I do think some of the Don Brown criticism is justified, more from a fundamental perspective in DT recruitment philosophy).   I think that Harbaugh is a good man who truly cares about his student-athletes and even yesterday absolutely refused to throw them under the bus to the media after being asked an obviously leading and asinine question on the talent gap.  I think that Harbaugh is an exceptional competitor and that it’s absolutely foolish to question his desire to win The Game.  I also think that Harbaugh is extremely focused on being clean and doing things the right way.  Of course, my whole premise is that we are on an uneven playing field with top programs like OSU, Alabama, Clemson, LSU, Georgia, etc. (I was the guy who wrote this diary).  Unless we as fans / as a school are willing to even that playing field, it’s very much unfair to criticize Harbaugh for what has been – objectively – an incredible turnaround and great job so far.

What the Data Says

Michigan and OSU Annual Record Since 1953 (Michigan Joining the Big Ten)

Conclusions:

Michigan has always been a good but not elite program – the average season across this 67-year dataset has a 69% win percentage (defined as wins over total games played, so ties back when ties were allowed do not count as wins).  When broken down by coach:

Bennie Oosterbaan: 57%

Bump Elliot: 53%

Bo Schembechler: 79%

Gary Moeller: 73%

Lloyd Carr: 75%

Rich Rodriguez: 57%

Brady Hoke: 60%

Jim Harbaugh: 73%

So for example, the average Lloyd Carr season was a 75% win rate, or basically 9 – 3.  Note that the average win percentage for all coaches other than Harbaugh is actually only 65% (note that this is different than the average across every season, since every coach’s average record is counted as just a single entry in this calculation).  The key takeaway is that Harbaugh actually is performing better than our historical average, and basically on par with Moeller and Carr.  This doesn’t even factor in the fact that he had no foundation and had to clean up after RR and Hokes’ messes.  Only Bo is has a higher average winning percentage, and I would argue that Bo had advantages that Harbaugh doesn’t.  These include: 1) higher scholarship limits, 2) a weaker rest of the B10, and 3) a significantly weaker OSU.  Bo also had a much easier path to championships since you could tie… under the old rules, we would have tied for the B10 Championship with OSU last year so Harbaugh would have won a championship, something that is often overlooked.

Now, let’s turn to OSU.  They have an average season win percentage of 77% across the 67-year dataset, which is notably higher than Michigan’s 69%.  When broken down by coach (I’m skipping Fickell’s interim year):

Woody Hayes: 76%

Earle Bruce: 75%

John Cooper: 70%

Jim Tressel: 82%

Urban Meyer / Ryan Day: 92%

Meyer / Day’s success is simply astronomical and clearly above OSU’s previous trend line, though Tressel had already established it.  Clearly, something changed with Tressel and then changed again with Meyer / Day.  Note that the average win percentage for all coaches other than Meyer / Day is only 76%.  Meyer / Day have an absurd 92% win percentage.

All of this is easily supported by Bill Connelly’s S&P+, by the way:

So, what changed in terms of OSU dominating Michigan?  It’s extremely simple – recruiting.

Michigan and OSU Annual Recruiting Rank Since 2000 (247 Sports Composite)

A few notes here: 1) Obviously I would go back further, but the database only goes to 1999 and the data integrity looks weird that year.  2) I highlighted 2003 – 2007 for OSU’s class absolute rank because these are obviously incorrect – I looked into it and it seems that for whatever reason, the 247 database lists only a few OSU commits as hard commits and the rest are there but not included in the tally, so the number of recruits per class looks abnormally low which accounts for the low scores.  Realistically, OSU’s classes were much better – I’m hoping that the average player scores are still correct but have my doubts since they probably only include the players counted as hard commits.  Ultimately I decided to simply present the data as is without trying to manipulate it at all and just caveat what is obviously wrong.  I don’t think it really affects my point too much – just keep in mind that OSU’s 2003 – 2007 classes were realistically still likely ranked in the top ten and probably on par or better with Michigan.

Conclusions:

OSU has always out-recruited us.  Not a surprise, but look at how much the gap has increased since Meyer took over in 2012.  Now look at the gap since Harbaugh took over in 2015 – it has actually widened, which is extremely troubling.  Things have gotten worse.  Since Meyer started, the average player score for Michigan has been 90.0 and for OSU has been 92.2.  This is a gap of 2.2 on a 100 point scale, which seems small at first but then you realize that 247’s scale basically realistically goes from 80 – 100.  Since Harbaugh took over, this gap has widened to 2.7 – Michigan is 89.7 and OSU is 92.4.  This is a massive gap and basically the difference between a high 3-star average recruit and a mid-4-star average recruit on 247’s system… across every single recruit.  We are getting dominated in terms of talent.

I think that’s fairly obvious to everyone.  What’s more interesting to me is the uptick in OSU’s recruiting since Meyer started.  From 2000 – 2011, OSU’s average player score was 87.2, or a mid-high 3-star.  Since 2012, OSCU’s average player score has been 92.2, or a fairly solid 4-star.  This is a massive, massive increase – at a difference of +5.0, it’s actually more than the gap between OSU and Michigan today that I just mentioned of 2.7.  Again, there are some data integrity issues with 247 for some of the 2000’s years, but no matter what this is a tremendous increase in recruiting performance.

Here’s where I need to take a little detour and just state right now that if you insist on burying your head in the sand and don’t believe that paying recruits (etc. “cheating”) is 1) happening in college football despite the mountains of evidence, and 2) preventing Michigan from recruiting better, then the rest of this diary is not for you.  Just don’t read it and please don’t bother commenting.  Debates where both sides can’t agree on the facts don’t lead to anything, and I’m frankly not interested in wasting time.  I’m not going to try to lay out evidence to convince you other than quickly summarizing the following:

  • We know that much of the SEC is shady, from Saban on down, and is paying players
  • We know that Hugh Freeze was doing shady things and paying players (Laquan Treadwell cash photo)
  • We know that Clemson is paying players and funneling payments through religious venues (there is literally an article about this online)
  • We know that Georgia is paying players (Isaiah Wilson)
  • We know that Rashan Gary was offered ~$300K
  • Interim AD Jim Hackett himself literally said publically that people were trying to pay Rashan
  • John Bacon’s book elaborates on the Gary situation, discusses the issues more in detail (a Michigan coach is dejected because a recruit just got a brand new car in his driveway from another school, and he gives up on the recruitment knowing that kid wants money comes to mind), and literally has a quote from Harbaugh saying “it’s hard to beat the cheaters”
  • Seth of MGoBlog– on the board on this very site – has stated what the going rate for a Georgia 4-star under the table is and has also mentioned that Isaiah Wilson was coming to Michigan until Georgia made an offer he couldn’t refuse last minute
  • Andy Staples of The Athletic literally just wrote yesterday that  “Harbaugh either doesn’t know what a team that can compete with Ohio State looks like or — more likely — knows and has elected not to try to wade into the same recruiting waters.  Ohio State doesn’t compete with Michigan for players.  It competes with Clemson, Alabama and Georgia for players.  Only by signing multiple players that those schools want can a program join that club.  But that’s difficult to do, and it requires a choice Harbaugh has thus far seemed unwilling to make.”  Even the mainstream media is on to it.

Since it is a fact that Ole Miss was paying players during Hugh Freeze’s tenure and Georgia is currently paying players under Kirby Smart, I hypothesized that we would see a significant uptick in recruiting success during these coaches’ respective tenures.  I was absolutely right, as the data shows:

Ole Miss and Georgia Annual Recruiting Rank Since 2000 (247 Sports Composite)

Using the same 247 dataset, I found an absurd increase of ~8 spots (due to rounding) in class rankings between Freeze’s Ole Miss tenure and non-Freeze coaches over the same time frame.  The increase in average player score was 4.5 – this is the equivalent of going from a 3.5-star to a 4-star, or a 4-star to a 4.5-star on average.  Georgia’s data is even more absurd – historically, the school already recruited really well.  However, since Smart took over in 2016, Georgia’s average class rankings increased ~5 spots and the increase in average player score was an absolutely bonkers 5.2.  The data would suggest that it is ludicrous to say that paying players doesn’t materially improve recruiting – both Ole Miss and Georgia have seen their star average essentially go up by half a star or more when they have been paying players.

Now, to bring it all back to Michigan and OSU and Meyer’s +5.0 improvement in average player score – based on this, is it really so crazy that OSU is paying players, at least on the margin?  Yes, I understand that Meyer was a championship-winning coach at Florida, but can that fact alone draw countless 5-star, all-world recruits from Texas, California, and the Deep South?  Columbus isn’t really that much warmer than Ann Arbor, and it’s not like it’s a more attractive destination than staying in the South or the West Coast.  It’s likely not just Meyer and the excellent football that is attracting at least some of these recruits – there’s probably a little financial juice to get them over the line.

And it doesn’t have to be all financial – it can be other benefits.  Less stringent academic standards, for example (Fields taking only online classes ring a bell?).  Free cars, tattoos, meals, entertainment, etc., for example.  My point here is that given what we know about Urban Meyer and his willingness to bend the rules to get an edge (I’m not going to list Meyer’s transgressions, as I’m sure everyone is aware), is it really so crazy to think that OSU might be utilizing unfair edges in recruiting that gets them that incremental 5-star and those several incremental 4-stars relative to Michigan? 

I am certainly not arguing that every kid that goes to OSU, Georgia, Clemson, Alabama is going there for money – obviously they have excellent football programs.  I’m just saying that maybe instead of three 5-stars, they can sign five 5-stars, or twelve 4-stars instead of eight.  Over 4 or 5 years, these numbers add up a lot – there’s way more bullets in the chamber to hit on elite players, obviously.

It actually wasn’t even Meyer that started OSU down this path – they did that before with Tressel, who already had plenty of smoke for payments and impermissible benefits while at Youngstown State.  You can go to Michigan’s 247 board where several members who have connections / played football in that area confirmed that Tressel was recruiting with cash even back in those days.  I would contend that it is likely that OSU has shifted toward an SEC-style recruiting strategy while the rest of the Big 10 is still stuck with the traditional Big 10 “Midwestern” values strategy (and I’m from Iowa, I know what that means).

It’s been a long diary already, so let me wrap up by simply saying that the point of all this isn’t to point the finger at OSU or any other school.  Frankly, I don’t give a fuck if these schools want to pay kids (many of whom are likely not super financially well-off) lots of money to play football for them.  In fact, I can find no moral argument against it – isn’t this what American capitalism is all about, the ability to monetize your God-given skills without prejudice or penalty?  All I have to say is good for OSU and these southern schools – not all of these kids are going to make it to the NFL, and at the very least they are getting some sort of compensation for their skills and unbelievably hard work in the meantime.  There is no moral indictment of OSU going on here from me (at least in terms of money; Meyer sheltering a wife-abuser is a completely different story).

The point of all this is to try to show – with data – that Michigan is operating at a significant structural disadvantage unless we shed Path A (amateurism and the student-athlete experience) and pursue Path B (a semi-professional enterprise in which players are recruited with money).  Again, we each need to decide individually whether we are fine with Michigan winning 9 – 10 games a year and losing to OSU and never playing for championships while keeping our “integrity,” or whether we want to really compete nationally in college football.  It is absolutely, 100% a binary decision – you simply can’t have both.  I’m sick of people shitting on Harbaugh’s inability to compete with the big boys when he has one hand tied behind his back – he quite literally, based on his record and on the S&P+ data, is doing as well as he possibly can.  We as a school need to decide what we want – if that’s just to be a better version of (hopefully) Wisconsin, Iowa, Stanford, etc. and never compete for championships, that’s totally fine.  Just please don’t be a hypocrite and shit on Harbaugh – or even worse, much, much worse – the players for only having a knife at a gun fight.

P.S. – yes, Wisconsin beat us this year, yes Iowa beat us in 2016 – teams with more talent occasionally drop games.  We all know it happens to OSU too.  The point is the trend line, not small blips in data.  Also, I know that we made a lot of mistakes yesterday and we could have played a better game.  But we got beat by 29 points.  Michigan fixing its errors isn’t going to erase a >4 touchdown deficit.  OSU was just better, because they had better talent.

Comments

jcorqian

December 1st, 2019 at 6:02 PM ^

On a lighter side note, just an observation while I was putting together all this data:

I have to say that Bo's consistency is so impressive.  He maintained a 79% win percentage every season.  Woody, by contrast, was at 76% despite having way more undefeated (2) and 1-loss seasons. 

Bo never won the big one, but he was a hell of a coach.  Woody was obviously amazing as well, but he was a bit more up and down over his tenure - but the ups were really, really high.

befuggled

December 2nd, 2019 at 9:35 AM ^

I suspect part of it is simply that Bo wasn't at Michigan until 1969. Woody coached at Ohio State in the fifties and sixties, when it was harder to win every year and even the best programs were up and down.

By the seventies, the best programs had a clear advantage over most other schools.

Bo still did a great job even in the seventies.

HChiti76

December 2nd, 2019 at 11:48 AM ^

Thanks for putting the time and effort into this.  I already agreed with your assessment but it was nice to see some data.

A couple corrections: you meant since 1953, when MSU joined the conference, not Michigan.  And, unfortunately, Rich Rod was not 9-3 his first year, he was 3-9.

I am contemplating writing a diary under the heading: The Bo Myth but I would probably be bombed into oblivion.  I attended Michigan from 1972-1976 so the 72-75 football seasons when we were 0-3-1 vs OSU.  In fact, after the big upset in 1969, Bo was 1-4-1 vs OSU the next six years.

Bo was an excellent coach, a Hall of Famer, and he put Michigan on the national stage, where they had only been periodically since the mid 1940's.  However, through the combination of Mitch Albom and John Bacon's books and people who are young and didn't experience the Bo years in person, he has been made out to be a demi-God.  Many Michigan people would be surprised to know how he was not uniformly beloved when he was a coach and how he faced many of the same criticisms that Harbaugh now faces.  "Couldn't win the big one."  He did lose the last game of the year his first 11 seasons.  Had a very poor bowl record.  And I would argue his coaching mistakes at the end of the games vs Notre Dame and South Carolina cost Michigan a national championship in 1980.

Oh well, another topic for another day if I ever get the courage to write the diary.  Probably not.

Thanks again for the diary and GO BLUE!!

caliblue

December 2nd, 2019 at 6:19 PM ^

I was a student 1975-83. I remember we won vs OSU 1976 at OSU and it was a watershed moment because we had lost so many and Bo could not win against OSU. Of course OSU or UM, whoever won always got handled by USC in the Rose Bowl since we did not pass and could not defend the pass. The Big Ten winning bowl games was not a common thing then. Then the NCAA lowered the scholarship numbers and we and OSU could not offer scholarships to players just to keep them from other teams. The Big Ten for awhile was wide open, until OSU became the masters of the universe

maizenbluenc

December 2nd, 2019 at 1:36 PM ^

If you look at Bo's record, the decrease to 95 scholarships in 1978 really started the modern win rate trend (confirmed by the decrease to 85 in 1992).

Also, it's really too bad we don't have recruiting data back to the 90's to see what happened to Michigan versus Buckeye recruiting in the years after '97.

I do think some of Ohio State's increase came from A.) hiring a multiple NC winning coach, and B.) winning a NC in the 2014 season (early in his tenure).

Finally: We had an uptick that year sure, but the 2016 "loss" was a big roadblock to Harbaugh's ability to close the gap. I actually think B1G meddling to get OSU into the playoffs that year, hurt the conference overall in the long run. It certainly hurt Michigan.

bronxblue

December 1st, 2019 at 6:30 PM ^

A lot of people point this out but it requires a number of caveats.  Alabama had a 94% win expectancy in this game and still lost because of insanity.  2 of the other 3 Auburn wins are the kick six and the year Cam Newton got paid $250k to play there.  So it's mostly that Michigan has been unlucky against OSU.  Flip Gardner getting that 2 point conversion, the spot being short, and like 5% better QB play in 2017 and that's basically your 4 times in 10 years.

And Auburn runs itself like a football factory; that's a culture change as much as anything.  Michigan hasn't shown a willingness to go to that level quite yet, and so we'll see if that changes.  

freelion

December 1st, 2019 at 6:18 PM ^

Great article and very insightful data. I agree about the binary choice and the path we have chosen. Michigan has many other things going for it in terms of athletics, academics, research, thought leadership, etc on a far greater scale than any of the football factories. Ohio State literally has nothing else besides football.

I do take the issue with the idea that we are automatically losing to Ohio State every year because of talent. If we played relatively mistake free yesterday, it's a game in the 4th quarter and maybe we find a way to win. We should be able to pull off the upset from time to time similar to what MSU has done to us historically despite the large talent gap between us. Harbaugh has a disturbing pattern of having his team ill prepared for road games and big games in general. I believe this is fixable but I don't know what the fix is and you would think a veteran coach like Harbaugh could solve it but he seems to be in denial about it.

I'm most upset about the PSU loss this year because I think that was totally avoidable. It was lack of preparation that again led to a very slow start on the road. If we finished 10-2, we would be in the Rose Bowl conversation and be going to a much better bowl.

Next year is probably around 9-3 again with losses to Washington (road), Minnesota or MSU (road), Ohio State (cheaters on the road). Harbaugh will probably continue to have a great record at home and fail to beat quality opponents on the road and will get shellacked by OSU. Our only hope against OSU is that Ryan Day gets indicted on child pornography charges but that's unlikely in the incestuous town of Columbus where football trumps everything.

jackw8542

December 1st, 2019 at 6:33 PM ^

We lost at PSU because of a number of atrocious calls (no OPI when PSU's tight end pushed our DB away just before the ball arrived for its first TD, the OPI call on Collins where there was, if anything, PI by PSU) and the drop. The team came out ready to play and was impeded by the refs in a really hostile environment.

saveferris

December 2nd, 2019 at 7:34 AM ^

Next year is probably around 9-3 again with losses to Washington (road), Minnesota or MSU (road), Ohio State (cheaters on the road).

Michigan's road schedule actually looks pretty favorable next season.  Washington will be tough, but the Huskies are a 5-loss team that doesn't look to be much better next season.  Michigan State is going to struggle to make a bowl next season, they're not beating Michigan.  Minnesota and OSU look like the toughest games we have on the road and it remains to be seen if PJ Fleck has built a annual contender in Minneapolis or if this season was a flash in the pan.  Michigan could easily be 10-1 or 11-0 going into their final weekend against the Buckeyes in Columbus.

uminks

December 4th, 2019 at 1:49 AM ^

I think we beat Washington on the road. Next season could potentially be better, the D tackles will probably be better and some younger DB may play faster. McGrone and Ross will shore up the LB. If we can keep Black at WR, I think the young WRs will have big seasons. Plus we should be a better running team. I think we will whip MSU on the road. I'm sure we will have some other road loss with the for sure road loss being OSU. I think 10-2 will possible or even an 11-1 next season.

jackw8542

December 1st, 2019 at 6:31 PM ^

I like it the way Harbaugh does it. If there is going to be semipro football, let the NFL start a farm system and have colleges go back to being colleges where its students compete against each other.

gruden

December 1st, 2019 at 11:17 PM ^

That's great in theory, but there's too much money involved now.  Too many AD's are addicted to the revenue, especially since it pays for the non-revenue sports.  We're too far down this road for it to be feasible now, too many alumni expect it.  The SEC would never have it.

Zopak

December 1st, 2019 at 6:35 PM ^

Fantastic diary, I absolutely love seeing cold, hard numbers. For whatever reason, it completely sets me at ease with the situation. As long as it is considered cheating to buy player commitments, I want no part of that. 'The Leaders and the Best' means a lot to me personally, and it's worthwhile to me to uphold our values. Michigan is so much more than just a football program. I'd never want a sport to besmirch the university at large. 

That said, the moment that money is allowed to be thrown about... Unleash the money-cannons baby. 

jcorqian

December 1st, 2019 at 7:19 PM ^

Frankly I also don't give a fuck if we are completely clean or not.  I'm sure there's some booster somewhere that has given a kid a few hundred dollars handshake.  Let's not equate that to Georgia paying Isaiah Wilson $400K+ to flip and doing that systematically across its recruiting machine.

If I were a betting man (and I am), I'd bet that we don't have a systematic way to funnel lots of money to star recruits.  If we did, Jesus Christ we are bad at it.

MIdocHI

December 1st, 2019 at 10:41 PM ^

How obtuse are you?

Chase Young, a potential Heisman winner on defense, was just suspended 2 games for accepting money. They admitted it because the evidence was so obvious. Do you think that is the only impermissible benefit that has occurred at OSU?  How naive can you be with such blatantly obvious cheating?

jcorqian

December 2nd, 2019 at 1:48 PM ^

Well, I don't necessarily disagree here.  That's the point of my post - one option is to join the "cheaters" and start recruiting with our hands untied.

Yeah, I somehow forgot to include that incredibly obvious Chase Young example where he was literally caught getting paid THIS YEAR and got off with two games against Maryland and Rutgers.  It's all a fucking joke.

username03

December 2nd, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^

Right, I'm saying it isn't really cheating in the first place and whatever difference there is between what goes on at anOSU and Michigan is a difference in degree not in kind. Therefore I find the 'but they're cheating' excuse to be bullshit.

EDIT to add: What went on with Chase Young is most likely exactly what is going on at Michigan, as was testified to.

The Geek

December 2nd, 2019 at 5:40 PM ^

When I was a kid in the 70’s my grandfather owned a car dealership near the MSU campus in EL. He was a big Sparty booster when he was alive and even when I was around 10 years old I knew grandpa had Spartan football players on the take. One of the reasons I became a Michigan Man actually. I saw first-hand how dirty their football program was/is. 

Trebor

December 2nd, 2019 at 7:38 PM ^

I feel like the distinction is quite clear. It's hard to pay guys to sign an LOI when they're already on the team, you know? Paying players is against the rules, whether they're a recruit or a current player, but paying recruits gets you more talented players, while paying current players does nothing for the relative athletic talents of the team.

Trebor

December 3rd, 2019 at 11:35 AM ^

What? Nowhere did I say that one is okay and the other isn't. Both are against the rules, it's the outcome that's different. That doesn't make one more 'bad' than the other.

FYI, I'm all about the players earning as much money as possible. Pay everyone whatever the market is willing to pay them. I'm not rich enough to be a booster, so not my money, not my problem.

Maison Bleue

December 3rd, 2019 at 3:13 PM ^

I am not saying players at Michigan don’t get money, you can’t watch all of the players all of the time. But if you think how Michigan players get paid is indistinguishable from how OSU systematically pays it’s players, well then, I have a property on a iceberg I would like to sell you. It’s pricey, but it has an amazing ocean view(currently).

Also, please point me to this under oath testimony that you keep ramming in everyone’s eye sockets.