WTKA Roundtable 3/7/2024: That's What the Money's For
Things Discussed:
- NCAA no longer regulating NIL: Brave New World? Ha. Maybe for Michigan. Sam has us make our case, which is the same we've been making forever. Craig worries about a Texas A&M situation, Seth & Brian push back hard.
- How should Michigan do it? Supplement what they're doing now but don't lose *THEIR* guys because of money. Bryce Underwood is the classic example.
- Schools can't afford to keep paying what they're paying out right now. Michigan included.
- Warde Manuel: Absolutely wrong guy to show leadership. One thing he's doing is he's the leader of the CFP committee that's coming up with a 14-team disaster that's just the B10 and SEC forcing autobids for $$$.
- Brian: Anyone who's an administrator at a college is expendable; teachers are not.
- Sam: Time to get the collectives in on Bryce Underwood.
- Sam: Trust me, Sabb didn't leave Michigan for money; he woulda had a Benz here too.
- Seth: I'm bored by Sabb talk; we lost our 3rd safety to starting at Alabama. That doesn't mean there's a problem it means we had the best three safeties in America and football has two starting safeties.
- Juwan Howard: Probably not getting fired until Warde Manuel is (everyone: so fire Warde!)
- Who you hiring? Brian: McDermott (Creighton)->Shaka->TJ Otzelberger (ISU)->Mark Pope. Craig: Will Wade (all: !!???!!!)->Otzelberger (good defense!)->Anthony Grant (Dayton, fun offense)->Lamont Paris (SCar)->Mark Byington (JMU). Seth: Nate Oats->Fred Hoiberg->Darian DeVries.
- Sam: Talk to me about Nate, but Bama has been supporting him well, and then you have Brandon Miller/Darius Miles in proximity to a murder. The other thing—put a hand on a player on the court—seems like nothing.
- Seth/Brian: Details of the murder are important; the Missouri thing doesn't move the needle.
- Dusty May? Caught fire with this group, but has only been at FAU, would like to see more of a track record.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
The Usual Links:
- Helpful iTunes subscribe link
- General podcast feed link
-
Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
Sometimes leadership is not taking every penny you can come across.
Sam pushing his love of Howard is really fucking annoying.
Sam is a company man, unfortunately he is just repeating AD talking points to prime the masses for Howard's retention. Basically basketball doesn't exist until fall 2025 at the earliest.
His claim that the ACC and Big 12 proposed this asinine 14 team playoff plan which, as Brian pointed out, would permanently lock their teams out of a bye seemed to also be a way of deflecting blame away from Warde.
I sort of got what Sam was trying to say but yeah I'm not sure it holds water. I think he was saying that the ACC and Big 12 are worried about a situation where all 7 at larges are taken by the Big Ten and SEC in a 12 team playoff. So they were like what if we expanded to 14 and everyone gets 2 teams in guaranteed, and once they cracked open that door the Big Ten and SEC said okay sure but then you never get a bye and we also get 3 spots each.
So the Big12/ACC would get 4/14 spots instead of hypothetically 2/12 spots, which nearly doubles their potential revenue cut, in their proposal. But then that very quickly got swamped by Big Ten/SEC.
Yeah, that was my read as well. If the payouts are approximately even for all 14 teams (I assume even the G5 team gets paid the same amount for being in) then a minimum of 2 spots per league assures you of 14% of the payout vs. 8%. And realistically the Big 10 and the SEC were going to qualify three teams anyway so that's not really much of a concession. Hell, most years the current ACC and Big 12 would be lucky to qualify 3 teams combined so it's a net win for them.
I listened and I thought he was pretty clear that it was time to move on from Juwan.
Where the hell did he say that?
Last night on his board he was all pro Howard excuses and propaganda.
Sam lead in the topic of who the next basketball coach should be. And every person gave their top 3. Then at the end of the segment, Sam said this won't be the last time we talk about this.
Sam may be pro-Howard, but its clear he knows that Juwan's days are numbered at Michigan.
I found it very interesting Sam commented at very end about having more discussions about the next basketball coach, suggests to me that maybe he actually believes Howard will be fired at the end of the season.
I canceled my 24/7 sub when Sam deflected the blame off of Howard after the Sanderson run-in.
Will Wade? Seriously?!?!
Editing to add: the guys is not only morally bankrupt, but he also doesn't even coach! He just recruits* talent** and rolls the ball out!
*don't ask how he does it
**don't ask how talented the players are
Yeah, that's just an insane take. Will Wade's teams have gotten out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament exactly once at all his stops, and that one time (LSU in 2018) he was suspended for those tournament games because he was breaking both NCAA rules and federal tax laws. So yeah, if you want a team that is run by a morally bankrupt asshole, UM might as well chase guys like Pitino because at least you'll get some wins out of it.
This was Craig’s suggestion and everyone else laughed it away.
Definitely not my suggestion.
McNeese was the best team I saw live and seemed extremely well coached.
But not suggesting UM hire him.
Not ever.
I made other suggestions
Worst round of takes I have heard from you, Craig. Especially bad takes on Anthony Grant from Dayton. Builds a physical defense and simply attempts to foul out opponents on offense. One of the worst offensive coaches in the country, especially out of timeouts and late in games.
Every time I hear Will Wade mentioned I think Deadpool (Wade Wilson).
Seth on NIL: "I'd care more if it was my money."
I wish Seth would listen to his own words when he's criticizing Michigan's NIL philosophy.
There is literally nothing stopping you from going to the highest five star recruit and emptying out your bank account for them to come to Michigan. Have them sign a napkin for it. But wait, you don't want to do that, do you? You'd rather spend other people's money.
If I'm responsible for NIL, I want to be able to call plays and make lineup decisions too!
I get the joke you're trying to make, but let's be serious about this.
Michigan's NIL philosophy makes a ton of sense: you come here, do well, and you'll be rewarded. Our fans will buy your merch. Hell, there's even a collective set up from the OL alumni to take care of the OL.
That's not what Seth has been advocating. He wants Michigan -- specifically, rich Michigan alumni -- to pay whatever it takes to bring the highest ranked recruits here. While having no skin in the game himself.
OSU fans gave Quinn Ewers a million dollars. He's now playing at Texas.
I don't think it's unreasonable that some (most?) of our alumni are wary of getting burned like that. It's better to try to keep the proven stars on the roster than to get into bidding wars / money schemes with high schoolers.
That isnt what happened with Quinn Ewers. He got a $1 million deal from a Kombucha company and in the contract it said he had to be the starting qb in order to make any of the money. And because he played HS in Texas, the company he signed with was actually a Texas based company. So it wasn't OSU fans at all. He left OSU because he wasn't going to start.
Now he did get an F250 from a dealership in Columbus, but he had to give it back as soon as he transferred.
I know several Ohio State fans who personally donated money to get Quinn Ewers. They haven't gotten any of it back.
Again, if you think it's so easy, just give a high school recruit your whole bank account for a signed napkin. There's nothing stopping you.
Within the last year Warde Manuel has been going to big time donors soliciting $14 million for upgrading the football facilities. He could just as easily have gone to those same people and asked them to donate $14 million to an NIL collective.
The thing is, these mega donors are already spending that money. Seth isn't spending their money. He's saying a more forward thinking AD would be directing these donors to spend money on the roster, not on building more elaborate facilities.
And that is what is happening at other schools. When Ryan Day speaks to boosters he says "we need this amount donated to collectives to win games." Warde (and a lot of other ADs) are just sleezy salesmen with fancy renderings showing why Michigan absolutely needs a photo studio to take recruits pictures."
It is just about priorities. And without a leader with vision, the donors will end up throwing their money at unnecessary frivolous projects.
1. This isn't about Warde Manuel. You're giving him way too much credit. He doesn't unilaterally decide how donors choose to spend their money. It's a bigger, more intricate system than just him. If anything he's kind of irrelevant. He's the face of the athletic department. That's it.
2. Football facilities are not "frivolous." They are, concretely, a more tangible investment to see a return. And at the end of the day, that and coaching staff is the best way to compete with the top programs in college football. If you think just throwing money at high schoolers gets you championships, you haven't been paying attention. There are too many counter-examples that have already been brought up and discussed.
3. "Spending money on the roster." There is a huge difference between paying your stars (Blake, JJ, etc.) -- which almost everyone is in favor of -- and paying high school kids who haven't done a damn thing.
1. The AD absolutely sets budget priorities and decides what the money gets spent on. Most of these donors don't give a shit where their money goes, they just want to be in the suites, get invited to exclusive team events, and generally rub elbows with the team. If the AD or the HC or whoever tells them "we need money for $X" you can bet they are going to be influenced by that.
2. Explain to me how Clemson installing a slide so players who are too lazy to take the stairs is a good investment. Now do the same for the laser tag facilities, the indoor waterfalls, the barbershops and recording studios. What is the investment return on Texas putting a flat screen in every players locker? Are they all individually watching their favorite shows before games?
Yeah its nice to have nice things, but the extent to which the ADs will absolutely waste money on facilities in order to do anything other than share with the players has reached comical levels. Instead of spending $280 million on facilities and nearly $20 million/year on a coaches, they probably could have spent about half that, still had a super nice facility, and given money to the players.
I haven't been paying attention? Well first off, you completely butchered the story of what happened with Quinn Ewers, so maybe you should pay more attention. And secondly, look up the talent composite score of every national champion in the last 20 years. The teams with the most talent, win the most games. The correlation is clear. A counter example like Michigan this year, doesn't discount the last few years of Georgia or Alabama and Clemson before them. Who stacked rosters full of talent by paying players. Just saying 'Texas A&M' doesn't change that fact. There are no guarantees. But amassing talent gives you the best odds.
3. Well in order for JJ and Blake to be stars, you had to get them on campus in the first place. I guess you can keep trying to find diamonds in the rough, and picking up the scraps of what other programs leave. But the last 2 cycles Michigan has had to go to a lot of their tier 2 and 3 guys. The landscape is changing, and if Michigan doesn't change as well there aren't going to be a whole lot of JJs that commit.
Dude, then go give these high school recruits your money to come here. Seriously, what is stopping you? It's completely legal.
This bullshit of "I'm mad that rich donors aren't doing what I want" is beyond stupid. You sound like a third grader.
That isn't relevant. Me giving recruits some money isn't going to sway them. What I can do personally vs the fundraising apparatus that the AD can summon isn't even a comparison. Calling me a third grader is rich, considering you can't understand the difference in orders of magnitude we are discussing here. Then you resort to name calling when you get called out for being wrong about what happened with Quinn Ewers.
I'm not mad "rich donors aren't doing what I want." Rich donors are giving a ton of money already. What that money goes towards is heavily influenced by the administration in the Michigan athletic department. And this is the point that Brian and Seth are making. A leader in this NIL era, is one who is going to be able to use the athletic departments donor connections (so called money cannon) to build a great roster. That is the linkage that is needed. I'm not demanding Stephen Ross pay Bryce Underwood. I'm saying that next time there is a fund raising event, the AD should be incentivizing donors to give to NIL efforts. NIL will bring more talent, more talent will produce more wins, and more wins will in turn generate more revenue.
At no point have I admonished any of the donors. Your reading and comprehension skills are terrible.
A leader in this NIL era, is one who is going to be able to use the athletic departments donor connections (so called money cannon) to build a great roster AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT.
I mean there will be trade offs sure. That is understood. It is why I keep talking about Clemson's dumb slide. If ADs have to build fewer bowling alleys then oh well.
Think of it this way: two athletic departments raise $280 million. University A spends $280 million renovating a facility that was redone in 2013. University B spends $80 million upgrading their facility and spends $200 million on a fund that goes towards compensating players a stipend of $50k/year.
The money is there. It comes down to priorities.
Is that what Seth is saying? I thought what Seth was saying was more along the lines of "I am mad that our AD is discouraging rich doners from spending their money on the right stuff."
Warde Manuel is a glorified figurehead. He doesn't snap his fingers and make donors spend money. And he certainly can't tell them where and how to spend it.
His power is limited to the hiring and firing of coaches. Other than that his role is largely political.
My understanding - and maybe I'm wrong here - is that Seth's criticism (and others, like Alex Drain and Sam Webb) of Michigan's NIL approach is primarily (not solely) that they (i.e. donors) aren't doing enough to get high school recruits to come to Michigan. As in, they aren't giving the bag, to put it bluntly.
My point has been: 1) Michigan's NIL philosophy is sound, because 2) we've seen other programs burned by throwing money at recruits. The idea that if you come here and do well then the alumni (and fans) will take care of you is something most donors can get behind.
My greater point was that everything is legal in NIL now, so there is nothing stopping you from emptying your bank account to a recruit for a single autograph. I find it hypocritical when someone criticizes Michigan's NIL approach (regarding high school recruits) and then say they'd feel different if it was their money.
Do you honestly believe that football players don't care about facilities? Last time I checked that's what basically every day-in-the-life Vlog by players is, and that's because it absolutely matters. Also, people with millions of dollars like their names on shit, and so they're absolutely going to like having tangible facilities attributed to them.
Also, Ryan Day says a lot of stuff and I'm not sold he actually has much of a plan beyond "I paid a bunch of assholes to try to submarine UM and I still lost, please don't fire me".
Players do like facilities sure. There is a huge difference between working out in a gym on campus that was built in the 1920s, like most students vs working out in a brand new gym with customized equipment. But what is the difference between working out in a facility that was completely redone 15 years ago? It is certainly not as significant. Also, ask a player if they would rather be able to get free haircuts once a week and play laser tag in the facilities, or have a salary of $50,000/year. I assume they would take the money and then be fine paying for hair cuts and laser tag like every other student. Ask Alabama players if they prefer 4 waterfalls or some extra money? I bet they would live with a single waterfall.
And yeah sure, the donors want some recognition. But there is only 1 facility, and it isn't named after a donor. I guess we will see if this round of $14 million results in any new named buildings or coaches, but my guess is it won't. 99% of donors aren't getting anything named after them anyway. They are in it for the clout.
I mean, 15 years ago was 2009, and I can comfortably say that facility design, technology, and expectations have improved significantly in the intervening in the interim. So yeah, while it's all debatably a waste, it does matter. And it's way more than the stupid waterfalls you hear about; check out those videos and you see state-of-the-art practice facilities, recovery stations, food, nutrition, etc. And while I'm all for players getting money, a salary needs to come from the school and shouldn't rely on the fickle largesse of rich donors.
Also, while the facility itself isn't named after someone I can promise you various portions of the facility do have names on them for sponsors and donors; I was in law school nearly 2 decades ago and it was common then to see little placards outside classrooms, study rooms, etc. with names of donors - both individuals and law firms - on them. So yeah, you do get your name on stuff for a $1M even if it's not outwardly visible.
Yeah I do think players like new things. Nice things are nice. But I think it is diminishing returns and I think the incentives are all backwards. I mean it is borderline a waste of resources to be spending $280 million on Alabama's football facilities in 2023 after upgrading them in 2013. I understand it is much more than waterfalls. But they still put the waterfalls, bowling alleys, etc in there and that has a cost associated with it. If you were operating this like a business, you would put in all the nutrition and performance things and not all the superfluous stuff, because there is no real value there. But again, they aren't incentivized to think critically about what the players actually need, they are incentivized to just spend more and build more because then they can artificially deflate their budgets which prevents them from having to discuss player compensation.
And yes I think the salary would be coming from the school. But a large part of the schools revenue is derived from donations. So the point is that when the donations come in, the admin needs to be budgeting that for player compensation instead of more dumb things. The majority of donors aren't setting the spending priorities of the AD. The AD says "hey we need $14 million to do these upgrades, donate $X amount and you get Y perks." If an AD instead said "Hey we need $5 million for the roster, donate $X and you get Y perks." Donors would still be there. So yeah you get names on things, but I don't think donors are mainly motivated by that. No one is calling up Warde and saying "hey I want my name on a plaque in Schembechler Hall, what can we do?" and Warde goes "uhh I guess we could add another hot tub..." The point is that the AD is herding the donors dollars into different pet projects, one of which could and should be payments to players.
"If you were operating this like a business..."
If you were operating this like a business - you'd immediately get rid of every sport in the athletic department except football and men's basketball.
I think there is some middle ground between eliminate all sports and spend $200M on new facilities every decade.
I know it is not a business, the point is that they often don't take a hard look at what is needed because spending excessively is encouraged.
"I think there is some middle ground..."
yes - not running it like a business.
You guys are forgetting that the same people who are donating for NIL opportunities are the same people who are donating to the University for all of its needs - it creates an issue because it pits the University against athletics/student-athletes for the same pot of money.
No I don't think we are forgetting that. That is the main point. The school/AD sees the NIL collectives as their competition so doesn't want to promote them. They want to greedily hog the money.
The school/AD don't see the NIL collectives as their competition - they literally ARE competition.
The AD does better when the team is better, the team is better when it has more talent, more talent can be acquired through NIL. It can be a symbiotic relationship if the AD chose to see it that way.
My bank account wouldn't do jack shit in one of these recruitments.
You'd be surprised. Maybe you should try before complaining.
Not a perfect metaphor for this situation, but "you can't complain/want something unless you personally also do the thing you're advocating for." Even if that person has 1/10000th of the power to do so. Seth donated 1% of his wealth to an NIL. No one signs. Ross donates 1% of his wealth to an NIL (he's given way more for other things) and he gets like 5 recruits signed/year no problem.
I'm a big fan of this meme. It especially applies to Decatur Jack telling me above that because I think the Michigan AD could be better about fundraising for NIL, that therefore I should give my whole bank account to a recruit....yes that will show them.
Okay. I'm going to argue in good faith here.
1. We all want Michigan to win. We all want Michigan to get the best recruits they possibly can. We all want a competent athletic department. No one is arguing against those things.
2. The problem with the meme is that the person saying "Things should be better" is actually suffering under the model and has no way out of it. That does not apply here.
3. "Fundraising for NIL." Again, and I will keep making this point, there is a difference between paying players already on the roster who have proven themselves and throwing money at unproven high schoolers. If you want the latter, then there is nothing stopping you from doing it yourself. Don't complain about how other people are spending their money.
4. Two things can be true at the same time. You can have a problem with the AD and also think Michigan's NIL approach is sound.
Stop upvoting your own posts.
Also, 2 is wrong because you're saying that me and Seth can single handedly raise millions of dollars to compete with other schools for recruits. All fans are at the whims of those in power in this sport with no way out of it.
3. As I pointed out, I don't have a million dollars to give Bryce Underwood. And to reiterate, I am not complaining with how the donors spend their money. They are extremely generous with their money. My problem is with the way the AD spends that money.
As I state later in the thread, people keep talking about the pay proven players model. Sure that is all well and good when you got guys like Zak Zinter and JJ to commit back in 2019. We are 5 years later and the game has changed. You aren't getting the next 5 star QB without something up front. We've witnessed that for the last 2 cycles. Sure, you can get guys like Kendrick Bell, Jayden Denegal, Alex Orji to commit with the promise that they would have an opportunity to make money as a senior. But I don't think any of us think those guys will ever be as good as JJ. And you need those 5* QB types to be the foundation of a top tier team.
If Decatur had been upvoting his own posts, I'm going to go back and neg each one just to counteract his vote.
That's pathetic! Buy hey, at least he's doing the equivalent of donating his bank account - he's putting his vote where his mouth is!
I think it's pretty important for folks in this discussion to remember these two inconvenient facts:
1) The school can't pay NIL.
2) It is illegal (not against the rules - against the LAW) to entice HS players using NIL in the state of Michigan
So what exactly is it folks want the AD to do - knowing the school is not going to pay NIL itself (against the rules) or entice HS players with it (against state law)?
maybe you'd be surprised at how expensive medical bills are for extended care
Comments