WTKA Roundtable 1/25/2024: The Age of Culture Dudes
Things Discussed:
- Seth is on early to talk about the Lions, relates it to Harbaugh/Sherrone Moore: Dan Campbell is a culture guy, and that's a hole that the NFL left when it shifted to playcallers as head coaches.
- Harbaugh to NFL: Seems the program is set through 2024, need to figure out their plan for 2025.
- Where were you when you heard? I was about to start the final boss fight of a very long D&D campaign.
- Expected? Yeah, said so in the previews. Michigan tried but Harbaugh was going to take a good NFL deal. When in history has someone gotten a successful NFL coach to come back and coach their college team for 9 years? This was the deal. There is no Super Bowl at Michigan.
- Sherrone? Yes. When? They have to wait 7 days but will probably apply for a waiver so it could happen in a week or tomorrow.
- Leaving: Minter, probably Jay Harbaugh. Brian: Spread your wings, Jay. Seth: He's not that kind of guy, but he may be the kind of guy who loves Michigan enough to want to stay. Herbert? There is nothing in the NFL for him like there is at Michigan, but Seth is worried because Bruce Feldman says Harbaugh plans to take him.
- Staying: Clink (AHC?), Bellamy, Hart, Robinson, Campbell to OC, Newsome to OL coach. Need to find a DC, an LB guy, and new special teams coach. Is there a 3rd Skywalker on the Ravens (Orr?) or another guy that Minter and Macdonald know? Jim Leonard: No. Brian has good dude concerns because he couldn't do better than an analyst for Bert (Note: Leonard has a buyout from Wisconsin that would have been voided if he got a DC job but that shouldn't have mattered; knifing Chryst in the back seems to matter). Need to stay ahead of Ohio State in the metagame.
- OSU: They could have gotten a guy as good as Caleb Downs if they'd just recruited Rod Moore out of their own backyard. This is what they're up against. Ohio State has always been the program that will do anything in the world to beat Michigan, and they're never going to stop that.
- Is it bad for CFB that there's no Harbaugh and Saban anymore? Only if you're the person in charge of getting instant clicks by putting someone's name in the headline. What makes college football special isn't the character head coaches; it's the unique connection the fans have to their players.
- Hockey: Young team that doesn't have the depth to overcome mistakes in a very tough league.
[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Seth & Craig were on early here. Segment 2 is here. You can watch the video here:
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He didn't even get the Nick Saban; he's working for Bert!
January 25th, 2024 at 12:46 PM ^
In the write-up, there is mention of a 7-day wait before Moore (or someone else) can be named as HC. I wasn't aware of this 7-day wait requirement. Is it a Michigan thing? It didn't seem like Alabama had to wait that long to announce DeBoer as their new HC.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:12 PM ^
It is a Michigan thing, but Ira said it can be waived and he expects the application for a waiver to go out, so we may see something as of this week if that goes forward
January 25th, 2024 at 5:19 PM ^
It's a state requirement thing, and I get it. But also, as noted during the podcast, it's designed to open up opportunities for underrepresented groups, and so saying you want to eschew the wait to hire the first black football coach in team history feels like a worthy exemption.
January 25th, 2024 at 1:16 PM ^
On your first point, I think the calculus is that the value-add of JJH outweighs the risk presented by potential NCAA compliance issues, especially given how they’ve been rendered down to a paper tiger in recent years.
Howeva, this objectively sound calculus can be undermined by a sufficiently risk averse culture that’s more concerned with upholding a fanciful brand image than optimizing performance. I have a ton of confidence in Moore as a coach but would hate to see him thrown under the bus to appease the NCAA at some point, same as I did with Jim.
January 25th, 2024 at 2:34 PM ^
I think Craig's opposition to the buyout is ideological: the buyout is a restraint on the employee's ability to move jobs and Craig has always been a pro-employee guy. I don't think he's wrong in principle, but buyouts in coaches contracts are ubiquitous so I don't quite understand why thought it wrong for Michigan to want to include one in the contract.
Also, I must have misunderstood Craig because it seemed to me he was saying that Michigan was trying to put the immunity clause in the contract when I thought that was Harbaugh's doing (Jim wanted immunity from being fired for cause if the NCAA or Big10 suspends him more for past infractions.)
January 25th, 2024 at 5:26 PM ^
Thank you.
I was not trying to say (but maybe did) that UM was trying to put an immunity clause in the contract. I don't know, exactly (of course) what the language of such a provision looked like. Before I can have a real opinion I would like to see the exact terms.
But here, if you really wanted to keep JH, seems to me (aside from money) they would not have been throwing chairs in the way of a deal. Make an offer w/o such a clause. Say nothing about NCAA violations. As I got it JH wanted a three person panel, and not Warde, to decide on sanctions for such violations. Fine. Agree. Reasonableness is always a standard of merit.
Forget about buyouts. To me they are unconscionable most of the time.
I could be wrong---often I am---but it sure feels like UM could have been more aggressive in trying to retain him.
Still, Brian is most probably correct--he was out the door once the LAC job was on the table for him. Maybe, well before.
If I were AD I would have told JH some time ago to write the/his own contract. "What do we need to do to retain you?" And then go from there.
Thanks, elm for your comments.
January 26th, 2024 at 8:27 AM ^
Regarding the buyout, the whole thing seemed silly anyway. It was around one million, was going to be around 4 million...none of these people (NFL, Harbaugh, UM) actually care that much about that kind of money. Sure, it could have been zero. If the buyout was zero, Harbaugh could have a newly signed UM contract and continued his discussions with LA just the same, ultimately ending up in the NFL. Not a great PR look for him, if he cares, so he probably wasn't that inclined to do it.
So yes, a more prudent PR thing for UM would have been to concede on the buyout clause. It wouldn't make a material difference in the end.
As for immunity, the way I have understood it from when Sam talks about it, he basically wanted a fully guaranteed contract even if he was fired for cause in the future. For example, if some future staffer decides to go rogue and commit a level 1 violation, the new NCAA rule says the NCAA can stick Jim with that level 1 even if he had nothing to do with it. Jim didn't want to be fired for cause in such a situation. Sounds like a reasonable protection for him, but if it's worded in such a way that UM has zero recourse for any of Jim's actions, that's not such a great deal for UM.
Make an offer w/o such a clause. Say nothing about NCAA violations.
That seems impossible to do for a college coach. In fact, Michigan probably would be the one who prefers that idea, no? If there's no clause about NCAA violations, then they can do whatever they want in response to them.
As for dropping the TRO, I still have never received a totally satisfactory explanation as to why it was dropped. The best version of the story I heard is that the Big Ten threatened to increase its suspension to the postseason unless UM and Harbaugh dropped the case. And also the Big Ten promised (though not in writing) to end their "investigation," such as it was, if UM and Harbaugh dropped the case. Frankly, that's the best case scenario for Michigan as to why they would give up on the TRO. If something else spooked them, that's a bad thing. And remember that Harbaugh had to agree to dropping his separate case as well. Perhaps he was grudgingly convinced to do so, but ultimately he had a choice there, too.
I do think that the entire NCAA and Big Ten mess was a factor in Jim's decision, but that doesn't mean Michigan's response is at fault for pushing him out the door. What did Jim want, for Santa to go out and say "Gee, I hope he doesn't fire me!" That ultimately didn't even work for Tressel. They backed Jim. They still have an institution to represent. Jim is not the university's administration. He was an employee.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:40 PM ^
I'd like Mike Elston to get a shot at DC.
January 25th, 2024 at 12:56 PM ^
Not about Harbaugh specifically, I would like to know - as an alumnus, taxpayer, and occasional donor - who made the ultimate decision to kill the legal challenge(s) to the Big Ten? I would like to know who made that decision and their rationale. I am not saying it was the *wrong* decision per se, but those details should be released at some point.
January 25th, 2024 at 2:33 PM ^
Of course Harbaugh is going to try to get Herbert to come with him. He couldn’t have a higher opinion of the guy. The only question is whether Herbert will want to go. I’m not sure how someone can say there would be nothing for him in the NFL. It’s pro sports and football at the highest level.
January 25th, 2024 at 3:04 PM ^
not sure if it is realistic, given we have money to throw around, can we get Brian Griese back as OC and QB coach?
January 25th, 2024 at 7:17 PM ^
Has he expressed an interest in that?
January 25th, 2024 at 3:44 PM ^
Seth is correct when he says no one knows what would have happened with the TRO hearing. Craig is off base about that unless the judge told him in advance “oh yeah, no worries, I’m going to grant this sucker."
January 25th, 2024 at 5:30 PM ^
I concede to being off base a lot.
But.
I know the lawyers.
I know the judge.
January 26th, 2024 at 8:38 AM ^
unless the judge told him in advance “oh yeah, no worries, I’m going to grant this sucker."
So, is that what happened? Who gave you the absolute assurance? Why wasn't Michigan given that absolute assurance? Why wasn't Harbaugh? If Harbaugh was, why did Harbaugh drop his case as well?
It's hard to just take your word for it without actual details. Understandable that you wouldn't want to discuss those details, but every other mgolawyer who was posting on the board at the time said many times that going in front of a judge is always a gamble and an unknown.
January 26th, 2024 at 8:25 AM ^
THANK YOU for pushing on the 6-8 times craig said harbaugh “wanted out.” that implies he was unhappy at michigan. nobody with half a brain honestly believes that.
January 26th, 2024 at 3:42 PM ^
I hope I never said Harbaugh was "unhappy" at Michigan. I don't think that and I don't think JH was unhappy. I have never thought he was unhappy here. So, if I said that, I am confused.
I think it is certain, now, he wanted to go back to the NFL. Seems like that's been on his horizon for a while.
January 27th, 2024 at 6:56 AM ^
i don’t think you said he was unhappy at any point, but the use of “he wanted out” implied (in my opinion) more dissatisfaction than he actually felt. i might say “he wanted another shot at the nfl,” but it’s really just a quibble.
it ain’t no thing, obviously, and i always appreciate your insight and comments on the roundtable. you’re one of the high points of my michigan week!
January 26th, 2024 at 10:51 AM ^
Has anyone seen the link to the job posting for the foobtall head coach position?
January 26th, 2024 at 11:32 AM ^
to Brian.... just because the NFL doesn't have a Herbert strength role, don't assume that Jim won't create it and be an innovator. He attributes a ton of success to Herbert and I'd be surprised if he doesn't bring him.
January 27th, 2024 at 12:59 AM ^
why does brian feel the need to constantly talk over craig?
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