[Bryan Fuller]

Three Folding Chairs Comment Count

Brian November 29th, 2021 at 1:57 PM

11/27/2021 – Michigan 42, Ohio State 27 – 11-1, 8-1 Big Ten, Big Ten East Champions

The thing that cracked me was the folding chair.

I don't know when this happened, exactly, but it might have been around the same time the turnover chain spawned its infinite variations around the country. There are three guys on the Michigan sideline who maniacally wave around folding chairs at key moments. They must be walk-ons. I can discern no rhyme or reason as to what prompts the chair waving. It does not actually seem connected to turnovers—Michigan acquired none in this game. I do not know if it's the same three guys with the chairs or if it's a rotating cast.

But there are chairs, and they are jiggled at high rates of speed on the Michigan sideline, and sometimes they host small gatherings of hype. It feels like a cargo cult. The chairs have dropped from the sky and are venerated because we cannot think of anything better to do with them. Nobody has asked about them yet. Google turns up nothing but ads for folding chairs when asked about this. There has not yet been the Athletic deep dive about the slightly deranged 190-pound defensive end who seized upon the folding chair as his totem, and got his two buddies to join in mostly because the slightly deranged 190-pound defensive end absolutely will not shut up and if they agreed to wield the chairs they could go to the bar before 1 AM.

They are thus a perfect mystery. I cannot understand why this is happening and no one is bothering to explain. The chairs merely are. They are there, so they are there.

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This year Michigan went around stealing sports valor from the Big Ten. They Jumped Around at Wisconsin. They did the Zombie Nation thing at Penn State. They may have gone HOO HOO HOO when MSU did their 300 thing, but no one puts that on television. Michigan's players would gather at the most hype-adjacent spot they could access to do the thing all the undergrads in the stands were doing. The chairs were there. Grasped and exalted, they were there.

In the third quarter, Michigan had just scored to go up 15 and something was playing during a commercial break. The Michigan sideline went nuts. The chairs were lifted again, and again, and again. They bobbed on an invisible ocean. Pure joy radiated from them.

I've been pretty turned off this season for obvious reasons, and I was turned off for much of this game. I simply cannot expose myself to more emotional turmoil at this point. Hope and joy go hand in hand with loss. So I was stoic, for the most part. Little things squeaked out: a "go!" when Corum broke into the secondary, a "get him!" when Hutchinson flushed Stroud out of the pocket. Cracks in the façade. The impossible coming closer. Lucy, holding the football.

The chairs somehow exist outside of this, in the same way I spent 15 minutes "meditating" to the buh-buh-buh-basketball song at one particularly stressful juncture last year. Was this the stupidest thing I could possibly have done? Yes. Did it work? Yes. The chairs are dada and do not follow the rules laid down by Michigan football. They are otherworldly. They worked on me.  I am now into absurdist Buddhism.

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So. There is a great mass of humanity on the field at Michigan Stadium. I'm sixteen rows up. I am surveying this field rush. There are elevated helmets, and what looks like a "slippery when wet" sign. Children sit on their fathers' shoulders. Somewhere in there a guy I think I saw in my section is putting an absurd gold chain around Brad Hawkins's neck; Hawkins will wear it to the press conference. Soon, Carl Grapentine will gently suggest that people on the field cease hugging and crying on the Michigan players so they can get back to the locker room. This will not work very well, so Grapentine will suggest it more sternly.

That is the near future, though. In the present they're playing Seven Nation Army or that suddenly ubiquitous song about pumping it up, and my eyes are taking in a field rush that has carpeted a football field so fully that not a scrap of turf is visible. And there, at the forty-five yard line, is one of the chairs.

The stupidest fucking thing in the world. A folding chair, held aloft like a beacon. Like it means something to someone, this generic slab of metal and plastic that could be put in a high school gymnasium and lost among hundreds of identical copies of itself. Somewhere on that field was a person who looked at the great black emotional nothing of Michigan football and said to himself "I defy you. This is fun." Then he handed the chair to someone else, and he said the same thing, and somehow the chair won, and then the chair gave something of itself to me.

I wrote a big dumb column last year about how Paul Chryst's mask discipline contrasted with Harbaugh's and that was why this thing that just happened was never going to happen. Because Michigan was too chaotic and unfocused and the masks are the thing. It is the same big dumb feeling when I say that somehow the chairs are the whole thing. Going into Wisconsin, where you haven't won in twenty years, and not sitting sullenly on the sideline when the other tribe is doing their haka. Instead embracing the moment. Saying it doesn't have to be like this. Saying the past does not exist. Saying we can go into halftime up exactly one(1) point and tell them that they're shook.

And then it can be true. All of it can be true.

AWARDS

Known Friends and Trusted Agents Of The Week

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legendary [Patrick Barron]

you're the man now, dog-2535ac8789d1b499[1]

#1 Aidan Hutchinson. On WTKA this Thursday I was asked what needed to happen for Michigan to win this game and the first thing out of my mouth was "Aidan Hutchinson wins the Heisman." Well:

Heisman voters are and old and crotchety and reliably predictable bunch with no imagination, but you have to figure that if Georgia shuts Bryce Young down the voters are going to blanch at 1) an Alabama quarterback who can't even get them to the playoff and 2) an Ohio State quarterback after Hutchinson dominated a game against OSU in which he had three sacks.

Anyway, yes, three sacks. Yes, a holding call drawn. Yes, Ohio State flipping their first-round OL around in a desperate attempt to find anyone who could stall the guy out. Yes, this:

Also this:

Heisman. Best player in the country. Period.

#2 The Offensive Line. Zero sacks. Zero tackles for loss. One(?) zero-yard run, that on some tempo that got the snap count jumped. By the fourth quarter OSU defensive tackles were doing plainly insane things and getting fed buckets of garbage when that didn't work. Jump to the interior and get escorted past the play. Yeah, McNamara escaped some pressure. Also Hassan Haskins had ONE HUNDRED AND TEN YARDS before contact. Also Andrew Vastardis immediately reached the nose tackle on the long Corum run and the two guards wiped the LB level. Michigan is going to finish this year in the top 5 in sack rate allowed and just put up ~300 yards rushing on Ohio State.

I officially withdraw any concerns about getting rid of Ed Warinner and making Sherrone Moore the OL coach. Give me my hairshirt.

#3 Hassan Haskins. Haskins may have had a lot of help from the offensive line but he picked the right places to go, frequently churning through gaps that didn't seem to be there until he hacked through the thicket of arm tackles. Then he falls forward, every time.

Honorable mention: David Ojabo had a thundersack, drew a hold, and flushed Stroud into a Hutchinson sack. Blake Corum didn't have a lot of opportunity but maxed it out. Donovan Edwards may have had the catch of the year. Erick All was part of the murderous blocking. Vincent Gray and DJ Turner got got, as you will, but survived. Cade McNamara did everything right except for the interception, which was… not great, but I mean. JJ McCarthy hit his one pass and ran his package impeccably. Josh Ross had a massive tackle for loss to kick off the second half.

KFaTAotW Standings.

(points: #1: 8, #2: 5, #3: 3, HMs one each. Ties result in somewhat arbitrary assignments.)

55: Aidan Hutchinson (HM WMU, #2 Wash, #1 Rutgers, #1 Wisc, HM Neb, #2 NW, T3 MSU, T2 IU, T1 PSU, #2 Maryland, #1 OSU)
33: Hassan Haskins (HM WMU, T3 Wash, T2 NIU, #2 Neb, T1 NW, #1 IU, #2 PSU, #3 OSU)
23: The OL (#1 Wash, #1 NIU, HM Neb, HM NW, #2 OSU)
22: David Ojabo (#2 Wisc, T3 MSU, T2 IU, T1 PSU, HM OSU)
18: Blake Corum (#2 WMU, T3 Wash, T2 NIU, HM Neb, T1 NW, HM OSU)
14: Cade McNamara (#1 MSU, HM IU, HM PSU, #3 Maryland, HM OSU)
12: Donovan Edwards(T2 NIU, #1 Maryland, HM OSU)
8: Ronnie Bell (#1 WMU), Brad Hawkins (#1 Neb), Dax Hill (#3 WMU, HM NIU, HM Rutgers, HM Wisc, HM Neb, HM MSU), Josh Ross (HM Wash, HM NIU, HM Rutgers, HM Neb, HM NW, HM PSU, HM OSU)
7: Brad Robbins (HM Wash, #3 Rutgers, HM Wisc, HM PSU), DJ Turner (#3 NW, #3 PSU, HM OSU)
6: Nikhai Hill-Green(HM NIU, #2 Rutgers), Jake Moody (HM Wash, HM Wisc, #3 Neb, HM MSU), Andrel Anthony (#2 MSU, HM Maryland)
5: Cornelius Johnson(HM NIU, HM Wisc, #3 IU)
4: AJ Henning (HM WMU, #3 NIU), Roman Wilson (#3 Wisc, HM PSU)
3: Erick All (HM NW, HM MSU, HM OSU)
2: Junior Colson (HM IU, HM PSU), Mike Sainristil (HM WMU, HM Maryland)
1: Andrew Vastardis (HM WMU), Mazi Smith (HM Wash), Gemon Green(HM NIU), Chris Hinton (HM Rutgers),  Taylor Upshaw (HM IU), Michael Barrett (HM Maryland), Matt Torey(HM Maryland), Vincent Gray (HM OSU), JJ McCarthy(HM OSU)

Who's Got It Better Than Us(?) Of The Week

Michigan chasing the beleaguered CJ Stroud out of the pocket on fourth and forever, causing him to hurl up a ball that is well short of the sticks.

 

 

Honorable mention: Hutchinson's sacks; Ross stuffing a third quarter short yardage play; McNamara hitting Johnson deep; McCarthy hitting Wilson; Blake Corum jetting for 55; virtually everything.

image​MARCUS HALL EPIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEK.

JSN makes an absurd catch on third and nineteen, which allows OSU to score a touchdown later on that drive, keeps them in contact, and causes the BPONE portion of your brain to freak out about how that will be the turning point.

Honorable mention: JSN makes a fourth down catch that is bobbled but does not hit the turf; Garrett Wilson skies over Vincent Gray for a touchdown; McNamara throws a red-zone interception to blunt Michigan's first-half momentum.

[After THE JUMP: baffled]

OFFENSE

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[Fuller]

A game plan, a package, a canal, panama. Michigan dug into the Box of Harbaugh Past for the McCarthy package, which featured a diamond backfield and a play that I labeled "double iso" in UFR when I saw it for the first time some years ago. Both tight ends plunged to either side of the center and the back picked where he was going; from there Michigan built off that with a swing pass, a QB power, and a bash play that sprung Corum outside the defenders. This culminated in the play action shot to Roman Wilson that McCarthy dropped in a bucket.

I can't say I've ever seen the "we are preparing a special package for our backup QB" thing work, and virtually every facet of the diamond thing worked well, and worked well together. It's like compiling a program for the first time and having no bugs. It happened to me once and I remember it forever.

This was just part of a bravura gameplan that saw Michigan rack up a dozen or more RPS plays. By the end OSU didn't know what they were looking at; guys just stood around.

Flea flickers forever. Michigan State may have just paid Mel Tucker ninety-five gajillion dollars because he had more or less the same team as Nebraska (33rd vs 38th in SP+) this year, but you have to appreciate the fact that MSU ran a flea flicker in almost every game this year. Flea flickers are great and everyone should run one a game. QED.

Excellent work by Michigan to use the wheel there, putting a linebacker in run conflict and not relying on a safety to bite.

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uhhhh let's call it trail coverage [Barron]

It's called press coverage for a reason. Kerry Coombs still coaches the DBs:

OSU CB to top

I don't think that's the way they draw it up.

A negative tempo thing. Michigan's initial attempt to go up-tempo on third and short got stoned because OSU was extremely ready for it; all the tempo ended up doing is telling OSU exactly when Michigan was going to snap the ball.

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[Fuller]

A positive tempo thing! At least Michigan used the jumped snap on tempo later in the game, drawing Ohio State offsides on a third and one and getting a free downfield shot to Andrel Anthony that was one diving catch away from being a big play. Somewhat alarmingly, the subsequent third and two that ended up being a bomb to Roman Wilson and a PI flag was another situation where Michigan thought they had a free play, but did not. An OSU player jumped at the simulated snap but did not actually cross the line of scrimmage.

Short yardage, though. This space has complained about Michigan's short yardage approach all year, but in this game Michigan's only failure was the aforementioned tempo snap. Most of the rest of the game Michigan kept it as simple as possible and converted by running directly up the back of the center while Michigan doubled the defensive tackles. Michigan actually screwed up its blocking on the first one but it didn't matter because the other double worked and Haskins could fall forward:

By getting closer to the LOS and going straight vertical Michigan had one extra step before those slanters could get to Haskins, and then they were hitting from the side and since Haskins can squat a dump truck he was unstoppable. Sometimes the play hit so fast that it didn't matter that Michigan had screwed it up. This was also from the first drive; Zinter does not chip the DT and he wins inside but he can't do anything because Haskins is already racing past him:

OSU DT to bottom

Directly vertical at pace makes those guys coming in from the side fruitless.

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butter [Fuller]

"What? How?" There were more consequential spectacular catches in this game but none were smoother than Donovan Edwards casually spearing a ball low and away from him with one hand and then tucking it in his elbow like nothing unusual had happened. Then he just about got a foot down on a very difficult back-shoulder throw:

A chunk of the offseason should be a bunch of analysts in a lab trying to figure out ways to get Edwards the ball.

Also excellent job on the self-scout by Michigan, anticipating that Ohio State would be paying a lot of attention to Edwards on the swing passes and blasting through red zone issues on the first drive with that statue-of-liberty end-around:

It is an RPS +2 when you score from 13  yards out and only really need one block.

Next time do it in the field of play maybe? Roman Wilson stepped out of bounds on his first quarter catch and then decided he wanted some:

If you're gonna do that might as well get the yards you're earning.

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[Barron]

One stretch only. Michigan incorporated some zone stretch as the season went along here but ran it just once in this game. It was kind of a big deal, though. As a person who's probably charted more stretch plays than anything else I love a good reach block, and when you're lined up like this…

image

…and your nose tackle gets reached, leaving a giant gap and the left guard scot free to to the second level, you are screwed. 86 takes his first step upfield because he's not expecting stretch and Michigan's been hammering it vertically and we are one bum ankle from a touchdown:

Mmm sequencing.

Punched in the mouth. Also, what is Steele Chambers doing on this play? He's frozen. No idea what he's looking at. Barely needs to be blocked. On the very next play Michigan scores and the playside end, Tyreke Smith, doesn't even get blocked either because he's diving inside as two guys pull around him.

Rewatching this game in some detail was a wild experience. This defense gave up nothing on the ground since Oregon, and here you've got key players making mistakes that look like high school tape. The dagger Haskins run saw OSU lined up like this presnap:

image

That is a total of three players to the left of center and five to the right. Then the OSU line slanted to the top of the screen. The sheer number of plays I ran across where I ended up wondering "what the hell is that guy doing" is remarkable.

DEFENSE

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[Barron]

Punched in the mouth, part 2. OSU was shook in this game almost from the start. Michigan went down the field and scored on their opening drive; the ensuing kickoff hit the ground and was placed on the four, and their first snap was an errant snap launched when Stroud had crept up to the line to call out the protection. They would find their footing at times but then one of their terrified tackles would commit a false start, or there would be another bad snap, or holding would finally get called. It was like watching the Ozymandias statue crack apart.

Anyway, this is how you rattle an opposition offense:

It's one thing to do that to Penn State, and entirely another to do it to Ohio State. This is a team that was coming off a 49-point first half against Michigan State and seemed entirely unprepared to get punched in the mouth. 

Stroud kryptonite. CJ Stroud is still pretty young and obviously very good at quarterback things but his habits when he gets pressure are bad. Even a slightly messy pocket will cause him to fail to step into throws and sail them:

There is plenty of room for him to step into it and rifle it but he does not. This meant that on several plays in addition to the ones PFF charted as pressures (probably!) Stroud was more or less pressuring himself.

I don't understand. TreVeyon Henderson got loose for a 28-yard run when Michigan got tempoed. The other 23 running back carries in this game went for a total of 66 yards. That's 2.9 yards a carry.

To me this is the single most baffling thing that transpired on Saturday. OSU's top two backs were averaging SEVEN YARDS A RUSH. Michigan was coming off back to back games against Penn State and Maryland in which their near-exclusive focus on the passing game allowed two moribund ground attacks to crack four YPC. The other top-end rush offense Michigan faced this year, Michigan State, ripped them.

As far as I can tell there wasn't any special schematic tweak that allowed this to happen. Other than a daring zero blitz at the tail end of the third quarter, Michigan was largely content to line up with a light box and live with the results, which were then outstanding and perplexing.

One thing that did seem to help: Michigan substituted their DTs much less frequently than normal. IIRC a lot of the success PSU and Maryland were having was not against Hinton and Smith. On the other hand, Donovan Jeter and Kris Jenkins both turned in big plays, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Aid in understanding. Craig mentioned that he thought OSU had a run/pass tell, and could it have been as simple as "pistol = run"? Via @colintj:

tell

That's quite a split.

The stick. Michigan went up 14-10 and then Ohio State had an opportunity for back-to-back possessions spanning halftime. They got a field goal out of the first one when RJ Moten came up to stick JSN short of the sticks, and then Josh Ross turned in the linebacker play of the year to turn the first drive of the third quarter into a three-and-out:

Michigan scored in three plays after getting the ball back and OSU was never closer than eight the rest of the way.

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nope nope nope nope nope [Fuller]

When you can see it coming. The worst feeling in the stands is when the opponent does some motioning and they get a matchup that you can only scream "nooooooooo" about in slow motion, and well here's David Ojabo covering JSN:

At least this was tricky on OSU's part since they put JSN in the backfield to get that matchup. Mike McCray in man coverage against Saquon Barkley remains the all-time worst of these moments of prescient doom.

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[Barron]

Corners: fine? Good? Great? OSU got a lot of short stuff on them that Michigan was more or less giving up by design because you have to play bend but don't break against this offense. When they did get hit downfield the corners were generally in great position and the OSU receivers were making absurd catches. There was the 3rd and 19 discussed above, but also the Garrett Wilson touchdown saw Vincent Gray a hair's breadth away from getting a PBU:

Olave had another contested catch, that one against DJ Turner, that I was less sanguine about because that ball was in a much better spot to make a play on and Turner could not. But even considering that the CB vastly exceeded expectations. At no point did any of them get zipped past like OSU's star corner against Cornelius Johnson. Everything was earned.

SPECIAL TEAMS

Not a factor. OSU hit a couple of chip shot field goals; Michigan did not attempt one. Punting was relatively even. Kickoffs were only interesting because I learned that if you call a fair catch and the ball bounces, the fair catch stands but you don't get to go out to the 25. Which is a weird rule, if you ask me.

Brilliant, or lucky? Michigan picked up a kick catch interference call when JSN decided to fair catch the ball at the three. One of the Michigan gunners was also trying to catch the ball at the three and the two guys bumped. I've tried to figure out whether that was a canny play or just another mental mistake by OSU; I started thinking it was the former and now think it's the latter.

First: can't blame the Michigan player in that situation since returners aren't supposed to field a ball inside the ten, let alone the five, and he's concentrating on fielding the punt on the fly, which would have been a huge play if accomplished.

Flybys are not legal. AJ Henning muffed a subsequent punt on which an OSU gunner gave him a flyby right before the punt arrived. Several years ago we learned that you don't actually have to impact a player to draw the kick catch interference flag—I believe it was Steve Breaston who had to avoid an opposing player before attempting to field a punt—and I was expecting that flag to come out because of the muff.

MISCELLANEOUS

Go directly to Louvre. Patrick wins with cruelty:

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[Barron]

Previous bullet is only complaint. The Michigan internet was in flames after an erroneous report the day before the game that the same crew that did the 2016 game would be assigned to this one, including the infamous butt-tap side judge. Nope: entirely different crew. And aside from the kick catch interference bullet above I can't really think of another moment where their presence was even an issue, either way.

It's possible that the hold on Ojabo that brought back  the Stroud scramble touchdown was weak, but Ojabo dipped around the outside and appeared to go down because the right tackle had his arm around his chest still—on replay that looked like it might have been Ojabo falling of his own volition but that movement pattern is always going to draw a flag. It's pretty much the only thing that gets called on pass rushes these days. Everything else was pretty obvious and not screwed up.

Property damage: minimal. Hooray:

Well done? I don't think I should have to say that but here we are.

The classic error. Everyone goes for it on fourth down in the correct way now so we don't have many opportunities to cluck about having Madden kids on your sideline, but here's a thing to cluck about: when you're down 15 and score a touchdown in the fourth quarter you need to go for two so you know how many scores you're down. Ryan Day kicked the extra point and didn't know if he needed to onside kick with five minutes left.

HERE

Best and Worst:

You’ve undoubtedly read and/or seen the crazy stats from the second half, but just in case consider these numbers:

  • Michigan scored TDs on all 4 of their non-kneeling drives.
  • They didn’t face a single 3rd-down on any of those drives.
  • The average length of those drives was 72 yards (!) covered in 5 plays (!!).
  • Michigan only three the ball 4 (!!!) times in the half, going a perfect 4/4 for 77 yards.
  • They ran the ball 17 times (!!!!) for 190 yards (5x!).

OSU was able to move the ball as well but at far greater difficulty, going 8/15 on 3rd and 4th downs and practically abandoning the run (17 yards on 16 carries) while Stroud was getting pressured on numerous dropbacks despite his tackles committing sometimes-egregious holds on almost every play.  And after every Buckeye score Michigan roared back with an answer, usually on Hassan Haskins’s broad shoulders, to the point that by midway through that 4th quarter OSU’s defenders seemed…um…less-than-enthusiastic about trying to denying him near the goal line.

The State of our Open Threads:

As usual, we shall start with fucks given - there were 303 of these, which is actually quite low for an OSU game in the data I have, but then, this is the first OSU win that I have data for. The record for an OSU game in the Harbaugh era is actually 751, which was the 2016 game, and about 20% of those fucks came around a moment best not discussed right this second. Of course, this was a substantial increase from the mere 78 we gave during the Maryland game, but far short of the 476 we gave during the MSU game. 303 is, however, the second most fucks we gave this season, with Nebraska being a close third at 299, followed fairly closely by Penn State at 285.

A couple more reflections on the win.

Comments

txgobluegirl

November 29th, 2021 at 2:53 PM ^

I cried.  When we officially won, I cried.  Out of sheer joy, relief - you name it.  One of the craziest moments ever.  Ever since, I have not stopped smiling, or asking my husband "hey - guess who won on Saturday?"  

Hail!  And Go Blue!

s1105615

November 29th, 2021 at 4:05 PM ^

Cried on Saturday.  Cried on Sunday after rewatching.  Will probably cry next Saturday around 8:00 when the guys run out of the tunnel onto the field.  
 

While I haven’t posted about it here, I was probably one of the deepest into BPONE, honestly unsure I’d see UM beat OSU again in my lifetime (and I’m a not unhealthy 41).  I refused to hope until Haskins scored his 5th TD, but was still steeled against the, what I considered the inevitable, come back from OSU.  When the 4th and 18 ended 5 yards short, my 12 yr old son and I yelled and hugged, and I cried.  Mostly relief, but also a huge chunk of happiness for the coaches and staff that all their hard work had finally paid off.

I’m sure I’m not the most rabid, or enthusiastic, or definitely not most hopeful fan.  But the win means more to me since The Team has finally been able to accomplish two of the more attainable goals that they set for themselves every year.

Now, they have the opportunity to achieve another this Saturday.  If they do, they will get another chance to put themselves in position to accomplish the ultimate goal.  While it would be gratifying on many levels for me as a fan for UM to win this weekend and beyond, the biggest satisfaction will be seeing those coaches and players rewarded for their all their hard work when this world is not fair and that work isn’t always rewarded commensurately.

Go Blue,  Beat Iowa.

mjv

November 29th, 2021 at 3:02 PM ^

The chairs are the kickers.  I sat next to a former walk-on during the Northwestern game and he said the kickers started doing that.  Now it seems to be a thing.

lunchboxthegoat

November 29th, 2021 at 3:05 PM ^

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." 

 

This OSU squad did not know how to respond to getting punched in the mouth. Then it happened again. And again. And again. 

 

My jaw was absolutely on the floor for the final M drive. We were just paving them. Paving Ohio State. I did not realize until well after the game was over that we averaged over 7 yards per carry. AGAINST OHIO STATE. It still doesn't seem real. 

Win Saturday and we punch our ticket to the playoff. This seemed impossible in August. Fuck, this has seemed impossible since its inception. 

Go Blue.

 

 

jakerblue

November 29th, 2021 at 3:25 PM ^

For how many years have we wanted a drive like that. Time after time this team has had trouble getting the first downs to run out the clock and piss away a victory. 

But not only did they get the first downs they stuffed it down the defense's throat all the way to a TD. That might have been my favorite drive of the whole game.

s1105615

November 29th, 2021 at 4:10 PM ^

I just remember saying to my son “we don’t even need a TD, just a 3 or 4 minute drive and a field goal”.  Just breathtaking to see OSU roll over and let Haskins score to try and save clock.  Obviously the right call on their part, but as a UM fan knowing that UM wasn’t going to give up the big play and OSU was going to burn clock all the way down the field if they did score it would in all likelihood be too late…just perfection.

Sam1863

November 29th, 2021 at 3:11 PM ^

Roman Wilson is quickly becoming one of my favorite players. He not only smacked the defensive back OOB after making that reception, but later grabbed onto another's ankles and wouldn't let go, getting his helmet knocked off and drawing a 15-yard unsportsmanlike penalty. And then he was laughing about it coming off the field.

Might say he plays with a little bit of an "edge," and it was good to see.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 3:15 PM ^

when you're down 15 and score a touchdown in the fourth quarter you need to go for two so you know how many scores you're down. Ryan Day kicked the extra point and didn't know if he needed to onside kick with five minutes left.

I actually don't agree, had that discussion with my brother during the game, and thought Day made the right call.  With five minutes to go:

- If you're down 15 and you score and then kick, you're down 8 needing one drive to tie it or two to win it.  If you then get the stop and score the next TD, you either tie it, or you onside kick - and recovering the onside kick means you need just a tiny handful of yards to win it.

- If you're down 15 and you score and go for two and fail, you're guaranteed to need two full drives.  Even if you get a stop, barring a turnover, M will punt and stick your ass deep.  Sure, you could get the FG first, then onside kick and try for the TD, but that's not as good as only needing the FG after the onside kick.

All of this assumes you can stop Hassan Haskins, of course.  But essentially, the reward for scoring the 2PC early or late is the same: a tie game.  The penalty for failing on the 2PC is that you need another score to win it - but if you fail it early, the game will still hinge on an onside kick, but you're certain to have to go more yards in less time to get those two scores.  Better to minimize the number of drives you need.

rc15

November 29th, 2021 at 3:22 PM ^

I think Day did it to save face, hoping to be able to say "we only lost by 1 score", but it definitely lowers your win probability. If you are down by 8, you don't know if you are down 2 possessions or 1. It's better to know as soon as possible so you can make educated decisions on whether to onside kick or not.

I think it would've especially mattered in this game. I felt great about being up 15 instead of 14, because even if OSU managed to score twice, they still had to win essentially two coin-flips in a row. 2pt conversion, then OT. If OSU had gone for 2 and gotten it, I would've been full BPONE and just been ready for the inevitable comeback. And while what I'm feeling doesn't matter, I think some part of the team might've felt the same way.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 3:38 PM ^

I think if you're down by 8, it's more accurate to say you know you need a 2PC, rather than not knowing if you're down by one or two possessions.  At five minutes to go (actually more like 4:30 in this case), there really isn't a question about whether you'll need to onside kick.  Barring a turnover, you will have to.  If you're down 9 at 4:30 to go, and you don't onside kick, the best you can hope for is a three-and-out that costs you 1:20ish, or three timeouts, or some combination.  Then M punts and you get the ball deepish in your own territory with 3 minutes and needing two drives.  Pull that off also without onside kicking?  No.  I don't see a non-turnover (or non-lucky-big-play) scenario where that happens.

Since you know the onside kick has to happen, you are better off doing it when you know you'll recover it down 2 and need only a FG to win.  That can only happen by failing at the 2PC late.  Fail it early, and you guarantee the two drives plus the onside kick.  Fail it late, and you still guarantee the two drives plus the onside kick, but you reduce the necessary yardage.

wile_e8

November 29th, 2021 at 4:26 PM ^

Since you know the onside kick has to happen, you are better off doing it when you know you'll recover it down 2 and need only a FG to win.  That can only happen by failing at the 2PC late.  Fail it early, and you guarantee the two drives plus the onside kick.  Fail it late, and you still guarantee the two drives plus the onside kick, but you reduce the necessary yardage.

Wait, what? This makes no sense. How the hell do you reduce yardage by doing it late? You're still going to need two drives plus the onside kick either way if the 2pc fails, but if you fail early you have more time to plan for the extra needed possession. If you wait until late to go for two, on that last drive down 8 you don't know if you need to go fast (because you might need the extra time for another possession if the 2pc fails) or go slow (because you don't want to leave a lot of time on the clock for the other team after you convert the 2pc). 

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 5:05 PM ^

Wait, what? This makes no sense. How the hell do you reduce yardage by doing it late?

Because if you fail late, you need the onside kick plus about 10-15 yards for the field goal.  That's it.

If you fail early, you're going to kick off, stop the other team's offense, and they're going to punt it.  Now you need to go ~70 yards, and then you need the onside kick anyway.  Or you're going to go 40-50 yards kick a FG, onside kick anyway, and still need 50 yards. That's where the extra yards come in.

People are too focused on the time, but what they leave out is that the opponent gets a say in how much time goes off the clock and you'd damn sure rather have to spend that time driving only once than driving twice.

wile_e8

November 29th, 2021 at 5:28 PM ^

Because if you fail late, you need the onside kick plus about 10-15 yards for the field goal.  That's it.

If you fail early, you're going to kick off, stop the other team's offense, and they're going to punt it.  Now you need to go ~70 yards, and then you need the onside kick anyway.  Or you're going to go 40-50 yards kick a FG, onside kick anyway, and still need 50 yards. That's where the extra yards come in.

Your scenarios assume onside kick if you go for it late vs kick it deep if you go for it early. Of course the scenario where you kick it deep requires more yards! That has nothing to do with if you go for it early or late! If you fail early and onside kick it's the exact same yards. Especially since you're much more likely to know you need to onside kick if you go for it early and fail. 

People are too focused on the time, but what they leave out is that the opponent gets a say in how much time goes off the clock and you'd damn sure rather have to spend that time driving only once than driving twice.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You still need to drive twice if you go for it late! Only you have less time to plan for those drives!

All your scenarios involve comparing the happy case for going for it late compared to the worst case for going for it early. Once you start comparing similar cases (2pc fails for both cases, onside kick fails for both cases, etc), going for it early is clearly better. 

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 9:10 PM ^

No, my scenarios are both looking at what happens if you miss the 2PC.  If you make it, it doesn't matter when you do.  They both lead to the same place.

You still need to drive twice if you go for it late!

Not necessarily!  You are leaving open the possibility of only driving once.

But if you do have to drive twice, then the second time you do, you only have to pick up one first down.

Your scenarios assume onside kick if you go for it late vs kick it deep if you go for it early. Of course the scenario where you kick it deep requires more yards!

No, you're missing the point of how this works.  First sentence there is right.  Second sentence is not.  Kicking it deep has nothing to do with you requiring more yards.  Kicking it deep saves you yards, because when you get the defensive stop, the punter is standing thirty yards further back than he would if you onside kicked and failed.

Mr. Elbel

November 29th, 2021 at 5:01 PM ^

I don't totally get your point. They were kicking the ball to us with 5 minutes left. They needed a stop and then a drive. Obviously they didn't get the stop so it's all moot, but they were down 8 with 5 minutes left. On a 3 and out they get the ball with 3 mins 30 secs or so if they don't burn any TOs. They then have to drive, score, and get the 2 points to tie. But what if they miss it? Now they need an onside kick and have probably under 2 minutes or less to drive again into field goal range. That's needing 3 drives in under 5 minutes, and super unlikely to happen.

Should they have gone for it when they should have, it would seem to me that if your options are being down 2 scores (9 points) after a failed 2pt conversion with either 5 minutes left or something more like 2 minutes left, I'd rather have 5 minutes left. You need more time to score twice. You need an onside kick no matter what.

Here's the options:

5 minutes left, down 9: drive the field quickly, score, recover an onside kick, drive the field quickly again, score.

2 minutes or less left, down 9: drive the field quickly, score, recover an onside kick, throw a hail mary, score.

You take a 2 minute drill drive over a hail mary every time. If you're assuming that they make the 2pt conversion, then that's a totally different conversation. But the point is, you don't know if you'll make it or not. You can hope. But what if you don't? In late game situations, you have to plan around the worst case scenario because nothing is guaranteed. Assume you won't get the 2 and call plays accordingly.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 5:18 PM ^

But you're making two very grievous errors here.

#1:

5 minutes left, down 9: drive the field quickly, score, recover an onside kick, drive the field quickly again, score.

That's not an option.  It's more like 3 and a half minutes left.  Unless you're proposing to recover two onside kicks, you have to give the ball back, and the other team is going to burn your clock or your timeouts, or both.

#2:

2 minutes or less left, down 9: drive the field quickly, score, recover an onside kick, throw a hail mary, score.

You don't need the Hail Mary.  You score a touchdown, recover the onside kick, then you only need 10-15 yards for the winning field goal.

As you say, it's a totally different conversation if you make the 2PC.  Because if you do, no matter what, you've tied the game.  (We're also leaving out weirdness like turnovers or surprise big plays, which you can't count on.)  But whether you go early or late on the 2PC, you don't get a better reward.

But the choice between 5 minutes left and down 9 or 2 minutes left and down 9 doesn't make sense.  Because you don't have the ball in the first scenario.  You don't get the ball back til the opponent is done with it.

Here's the real choice, the only choice: if your defense does the job, you're getting the ball back with 3:30, probably around your own 30 yard line.  (All moot, obviously, if your defense doesn't do the job.)  Now: Would you rather be down 8, or down 9?  (Remember: we're assuming that if you make the 2PC, it really doesn't matter when it happens.  Down 7 is best, but there is zero difference between being down 7 and scoring the TD, and down 8 and scoring the TD plus the 2PC.)

Anyone who chooses 9 is crazy.  I'd rather maybe have to have only one possession, than definitely have to have two.

(As I mentioned below, knowledge is more power given more of the fourth quarter to play with.  But here, we're talking about having time for only one decent possession.  Two possessions with 3:30 is a scramble drill no matter how you slice it.  You want to do whatever you can to avoid that, and with five minutes to go, that means kicking the XP.)

wile_e8

November 29th, 2021 at 5:38 PM ^

Here's the real choice, the only choice: if your defense does the job, you're getting the ball back with 3:30, probably around your own 30 yard line.  (All moot, obviously, if your defense doesn't do the job.)  Now: Would you rather be down 8, or down 9?  (Remember: we're assuming that if you make the 2PC, it really doesn't matter when it happens.  Down 7 is best, but there is zero difference between being down 7 and scoring the TD, and down 8 and scoring the TD plus the 2PC.)

Anyone who chooses 9 is crazy.  I'd rather maybe have to have only one possession, than definitely have to have two.

Here is your problem: you're assuming the coach is an idiot who will kick it deep with five minutes left down nine. The advantage to going for it early is knowing that you need to score two more times right then and you start onside kicking right away and hope for a miracle. 

You're going to need a miracle either way if you miss the 2pc, but going for it early gives you more options to hope for a miracle. 

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 6:30 PM ^

Here is your problem: you're assuming the coach is an idiot who will kick it deep with five minutes left down nine.

Well, if that's your argument, then your real beef with Day is that he, in fact, kicked it deep with five minutes left down nine.  Actually about 4:45.

But as I said: you're now proposing to recover two onside kicks.  One onside kick is hard, but doable; you probably have less than a one percent chance to get two in a row.  Fail in that strategy (a very high probability) and now your best-case scenario goes from down 9, 3:30 to go, and on your own 30-35, to down 9, 3:30 to go, and on your own 5 or 10.

Going for it early doesn't give you more options to hope for a miracle - it simply requires more miracles.  Two onside kick recoveries?  That's one hell of a miracle.  I'd rather only have to recover one, wouldn't you?

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 5:41 PM ^

To break down my essay above a little more succinctly:

- The two choices you offer aren't really available.  The choices are to get the ball back with, max, 3:30 on the clock (probably less), in your own territory, and to either be 8 or 9 points down.  (Again, if you make the 2PC, it doesn't matter when you do it - the result is the same.)

- So that knowledge of whether or not you need two possessions isn't really worth anything.  It's only worth something when you have enough time to do something about it, and 3:30 isn't it. Knowing you're two possessions down with 3:30 left gets you nowhere.  You can either have a potential path to victory that involves only one possession, or know for sure you need two.  Taking the knowledge over the one-possession path is counterproductive.

wile_e8

November 29th, 2021 at 6:04 PM ^

The counterpoint, succinctly:

  • You'd rather find out you're down 9 with 5:00 left than find out your down 2 with 0:15 left. Both suck, but one has more options. 
  • If you find out you're down 7 with 5:00 left your end game strategy is much clearer than being down 8 and not knowing if you're going to need one or two more scores. 

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 6:24 PM ^

I disagree strongly with the second: your end game strategy is very clear when down 8.  Score a touchdown and get the 2PC.  It's almost exactly the same as your end game strategy if down 7, except you send the offense back out instead of the kicking team.

And if you don't get that 2PC, you don't lose any clarity.

And if you're worried about being down 2 with 0:15 left, then you simply don't spend 3:15 of your 3:30 scoring the touchdown.  Spend 2:15 instead.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 29th, 2021 at 9:18 PM ^

You want to go a little faster than if you were down 7. But if you're down nine, you have to go at warp-ass speed all the time.  Because despite this mystic knowledge you have of needing two possessions, you still don't know everything.  You don't know if your onside kick will come after a field goal or touchdown, and you might need to recover that kick and go for the end zone instead of the 10-15 yards to get into FG range.

rc15

November 29th, 2021 at 3:15 PM ^

Shouldn't the Stroud muffed snap on the first play have been illegal motion? The QB is moving towards the line of scrimmage as the ball is snapped.

I think you still take 2nd & 9 there instead of 1st & 12, but if he was able to make something out of a broken play that should have been flagged.