UM/OSU 2017 Refs - 10 questionable calls
1.) Holding on Hudson? - TD Drive - Also, is Winovich being held?
2.) Holding on Bredeson? Ref was 25 yards away - Klatt disagrees
3.) Schoenle blocked in back
4.) Glasgow blocked in back
5.) Spot on O'Korn?
6.) No call on Interference against DPJ - Klatt calls out ref again
7.) Blatant hold against Hurst - The mis-call of the game - TD Drive
8.) No PI against McDoom?
9.) Cheap hold on Cole - Klatt says poor call
10.) Holding against Winovich?
If someone can embed, please do so.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:15 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 11:20 AM ^
Yeah because I'm sure Michigan didn't get away with anything or got lucky on a few non-calls. The refs weren't perfect but jesus christ its pathetic that somehow this blog has convinced itself that their is some big decades spanning conspiracy against Michigan.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:40 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 11:40 AM ^
I don't think there's a conspiracy and I don't expect the officials to get it perfect. I do expect them not to turn every big game into a fucking shit show and to obtain at least some moderate level of consistency. If you're gonna call borderline, ticky-tack shit, then call it both ways. If you're gonna let stuff go, let it go both ways. Don't call that hold on Hudson, or Bredeson, or Cole and then let absolutely 100% identical (or worse) shit go the other direction.
No, there's not much, if anything, we can do about it. No, there's no conspiracy. No, it isn't a decades long screw job. Yes, every fan base feels screwed by the officials, pretty much all the time. I'm still mad about it, and I'm still happy other people, especially neutrals, notice it from time to time. And hell, if bitching about it loud enough can raise awareness in the poor quality of CFB officiating enough to get us even a slight improvement, then fan-fucking-tastic.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:13 PM ^
Oh no, somebody pointed out that litererally every fanbase complains about refs and can point to miss calls. That means he sucks.
There are 7 officialls watching 22 players sprinting across an 100 yard field and making split second judgement calls often with obscured views. It would be literally impossible to call a game perfect or exactly equal in both directions because it could be a different ref seeing a similar situation from a different angle making a different judgement call. You litererally have people zaprudering replays that can't agree whether it was a hold on Mo Hurst but somehow that gets up on the list as a BLATANT MISSED CALL SPECIFICALLY DONE TO SCREW MICHIGAN BECAUSE DELANEY IS THE DEVIL. Its a really hard fucking job that is impossible to get perfect which is why every team in every sport complains about officials. The sooner that people realize that its a really hard job and accept mistakes by refs are part of football the better off this place will be.
The things that should piss people off are when replay officials get things blatantly wrong. The worst call by the officials was not overturning the spot on O"Korns run.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:22 PM ^
I don't think we even disagree that much. Like I said: I'm not expecting perfection. I want consistency. And yes, you aren't even going to get perfect consistency. That's fine too. I get that officiating is hard. Honestly, I tend not to complain about officiating for the exact reasons you outline.
What bothers me is that nobody in charge seems to care. It's not like we've already exhausted all options to improve officiating. We're not well beyond the point of diminishing returns here. The B1G and NCAA seem to put as little effort as possible into officiating quality. It feels an awful lot like they're doing the bare minimum they can get away with, and it affects the quality of the product they're putting forward. It sucks. I'd feel more lenient if I felt like the people in charge actually gave a shit.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:47 PM ^
I don't know, man. I think NFL refs are extremely good. Maybe I'm not tied in closely enough with the NFL or fan blogs but I don't see much complaining. And the games I watch seem to be called extremely well. I wish we could get NFL refs to do big college games such as Michigan OSU.
November 28th, 2017 at 2:02 PM ^
There is more review of a smaller pool who get more games to practice 16 game regular season plus 4 pre-season games>12 regular season games and having to find refs for 60 games a week rather than 12 so yes I think the NFL does a slightly better job but people still bitch all of the time. I can tell you a trip to a ravens message board last night would just be posts alternating between saying how much joe flacco sucks and how much the refs suck.
November 28th, 2017 at 2:18 PM ^
I don't think anyone has an issue with the fact that mistakes happen. Of course the refs are going to be mistaken from time to time.
Every player mistake and every coaching mistake is analyzed forwards and backwards. Ref mistakes carry zero accountability, their process is the opposite of transparent, and we have gotten way beyond the realm of simple mistakes anyway. There is no way you can explain away what has happened to Michigan in these last two OSU games as "well, refs make mistakes." Stop making excuses - for the refs. Hold them accountable, have them answer questions at press conferences and I bet you see things cleaned up in a major way.
As far as other fanbases - please don't waste your time and energy worrying about their reactions.
Let me tell you about the OSU fans I saw (there were more around us than I would have liked... but not as many as I feared). During the first quarter they were as nervous as whores in church and QUIET. Once the ref crap started happening, it changed to LOUD commentary on EVERY play. Either celebrated or bitched about EVERY play. It was in such stark contrast to most of the Michigan fans. Yes, please don't worry about how other fan bases perceive us. The most normally strident Michigan fan in our nearby vincinity was cordial and polite to the Buckeyes next to him. Next year I'll have to find out how we are treated in their stadium....
November 28th, 2017 at 2:45 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 11:23 AM ^
I mean, I think you can find 10 calls every game that both teams aren't going to like. It just so happens that ours were in some pretty key moments - and last year's spot is fresh in our minds.
If you want to get all hyped up on conspiracy theories, I think the consistent and well-documented lack of holding calls against our defensive line over the course of 2 seasons is much more compelling evidence
November 28th, 2017 at 12:32 PM ^
The sports conspiracy I definitely believe in is that Jordan was secretly suspended from the NBA for gambling when he went to play baseball hahah.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:22 AM ^
Any chance we get a competent replacement in the near future? Or is he going to be Kim Jong Il and hand the reins to Kim Jong Un?
November 28th, 2017 at 2:48 PM ^
Please, make him go away!
November 28th, 2017 at 11:51 AM ^
So 4 of the calls on that list are all the same guy - the Field Judge in the deep left of the secondary. He called the Bredeson "hold" from 25 yards away, he missed the obvious PI on DPJ, and he was the closest ref on all of the blocks in the back. If I'm the B10 reviewing these plays, his performance stands out above all.
The problem with the various holding calls or the Hurst play is consistency. Bredeson and Cole were both victims of body language. While they didn't actually hold, you could see how a ref who is trying to watch a lot of things at once could interpret it that way. Okay - sucks for us. But then you have to be consistent and you can't somehow NEVER call holding against OSU. I don't think the Hurst play is blatant either, but it falls in the same gray area that our calls did. I can tolerate bad refs if they're at least consistent.
Same applies to the PI penalty. I loathe announcers who say "they're letting them play out there" only to then get calls on Watson and Hudson for plays that were less obvious than the DPJ call. The McDoom is more of a gray area call, but it falls into the consistency bucket again.
November 28th, 2017 at 11:53 AM ^
I don't think refs call holding on the line anymore, no matter what. Every fan base is screaming about getting held. I saw a Nebraska post on it, Miami is complaining, etc. I believe that the conference, known for its defense, is deliberately trying to improve the offensive stats, which get attention, and not calling holding unless they have to. Even here, there are comments about missed calls against OSU. Everyone gets held and everyone holds (murders?).
November 28th, 2017 at 3:53 PM ^
So what's their excuse for calling it on us?
November 28th, 2017 at 11:54 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 11:58 AM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 11:08 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 12:00 PM ^
Wow.
Unless you want to spend time fixing a hole in your wall today, do not watch this.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:33 PM ^
Apologies
November 28th, 2017 at 12:12 PM ^
1.) Not holding. The WR/TE fell on his own. It was incidental contact that had no bering on the play
2.) Holding on Bredeson? The DB turned his body while engaged with Bredeson. That shouldn't be a penalty.
3.) Schoenle blocked in back. I missed that one live. That wa bad.
4.) Glasgow blocked in back. I saw that one live. that was borderline.
5.) Spot on O'Korn? I thought that was horseshit. The ref spotted the ball where his foot went out, not were the ball was.
6.) No call on Interference against DPJ. That was some BS. don't know how you miss that one.
7.) Blatant hold against Hurst - I missed this one live, but it is a hold.
8.) No PI against McDoom? - Sorry, that's a good no-call. Our guys do that all the time.
9.) Cheap hold on Cole. Whatever, it was declined.
10.) Holding against Winovich? I don't see it.
November 28th, 2017 at 12:50 PM ^
There were a lot of bad calls #7, the hold against Hurst non-call was the worst. We had 6 penalties for 50 yards and OSU had 9 for 75. Were the OSU penalties better than ours? I'm assuming they are, but you sort of have to present both sides or it does look like sour grapes. (I'm pretty sour about it.)
November 28th, 2017 at 1:21 PM ^
We weren't going to get the calls. The big ten was protecting its championship game winner by ensuring OSU won on Saturday.
Now that Alabama lost, I think the big ten needs to ensure that Wisconsin wins to make the playoffs. I expect the refs to tilt it towards Wisconsin in a close game.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:35 PM ^
It's 4th and 20, OSU ball on their own 7, less than 10 seconds left in the first quarter. OSU punts, obviously.
Three refs throw a holding flag against Goins of OSU--the R (Ron Snodgrass), the C (Eric Oliver) and the U (Ed Feaster). Meanwhile, DPJ returns the ball to the OSU 10, but that isn't the point. All 3 flags land in an admirably tight pattern in the OSU end zone, about 2 yards behind the goal line.
Refs huddle, interminably.
After the huddle, the R, C and U go to their flags, pick them up, and toss them onto the field at the 3 yard line. Only at that point does Mr. Snodgrass announce the holding penalty. The fact that the flags were moved from the end zone onto the field takes 2 points off the board for Michigan. Maybe that's okay, because they got the TD anyway on that possession, but Michigan should have been up 9-0 at that point and about to receive a free kick. Instead it's 7-0.
So something happened there. All 3 refs call holding in the end zone. They talk for a few minutes, and change their call. What convinced all 3 refs to change their call?
Oh! And then the refs screw up the "untimed down" rule causing a 10-minute or so segment with only 1 play from scrimmage.
November 28th, 2017 at 3:51 PM ^
I feel like we'd decline the safety and take it in the red zone, honestly.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:27 PM ^
I have been thinking about that for a while. Your hypothetical choices:
* Up 9-0, and about to receive a free kick and get the ball on our own 40 or so.
* Up 7-0, first and goal on the 10.
There is the old "never take points off the board" rule, which suggests taking the safety. But there is the metrics-based "50 yards equals 4 points" rule of thumb, which suggests declining the penalty is actually 2 points better than taking the safety.
The more I think about it, the more I think you are right--the correct call would have been to take the points off the board and take the ball at the 10. Under that version of events, the refs did us a favor--moving the penalty out of the end zone gave us the option to accept the penalty and take half the distance to give us 1st and goal at the 5.
I'm not letting the refs off the hook here, given (1) the overall negative appearance of them moving the flags after they huddled, and (2) the referee then screwing up the untimed down situation, that was what I would call a "bad look"--especially since it caused FOX to show about 3.5 minutes of commercials, followed by a single play, followed by another 2.5 minutes of commercials, followed by a touchdown, followed by 1 minute of announcers talking and then a kickoff.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:30 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 7:43 PM ^
You have a stronger constitution than I do.
Good to know, I only experienced this in the stadium, so I just assumed those 3 flags ended up where they were supposed to.
November 28th, 2017 at 10:53 PM ^
The hold I saw in that one was in the end zone, though it may have started outside it.
November 28th, 2017 at 10:54 PM ^
The hold I saw in that one was in the end zone, though it may have started outside it.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:42 PM ^
Didn't watch the whole thing but yeah we took our share of bad calls in this one.
And someone tell Joel Klatt that it's BREDESON and not BRADENSON.
November 28th, 2017 at 1:55 PM ^
these remain my fav threads to read
November 28th, 2017 at 2:46 PM ^
They should be, because they are bound to start evening out eventually, and then you are going to be a whiny little biotch, probably calling for an "all-out investigation",
November 28th, 2017 at 3:01 PM ^
probably not
November 28th, 2017 at 5:17 PM ^
and enjoy your streak for now .... you seem to be a more reasonable one and I know you know we've stood toe to toe with you guys the last two years, and a lot of those times outplayed you guys....not including DJ Durkins give up game in year 1 under Harbaugh.
A QB thats even playing a smidge below average wins that game saturday and you know it.
November 28th, 2017 at 10:30 PM ^
the refs stuff will always make me laugh because that one guy up there thinks michigan has been called for 17 more (!) holds in two games than osu and it's just hilarious. i mean how do you even argue with that? the other guy mentions how michigan's biggest offensive play of the second half shouldn't have even counted because it was a delay of game and he gets 20 negs. again, hilarious.
to your points about the actual game play, i don't disagree with most of it. michigan likely makes things much more interesting with decent qb play. would that have been with peters though? he hasn't even completed 10 passes in a game yet. why's everyone here pretending he was peyton manning? would he have helped michigan win? idk? after all, its defense still gave up 4 straight scoring drives to a backup freshman qb at home, so there's no telling how the game flow changes if osu and michigan were trading scores. michigan had a dominant 1st quarter, and then proceded to give up 360 yards and 31 points over the final 3/4th of the game to lose out on a 31-6 OSU run. is that toe-to-toe? not really.
all season michigan didn't have the depth or talent to play a full 60 minute game. this one was no different. does that change next year? we'll see.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:46 PM ^
The pitiful existence you must lead to have to troll this board after a win no less. What valuable time and space you must occupy with these priorities. You are probably one of those westboro baptist types that protests at marine funerals.
Ass clown.
ps. my wife is a Buckeye and she thinks you suck
November 28th, 2017 at 10:17 PM ^
holy shit dude
November 28th, 2017 at 6:15 PM ^
Beat it, trailer park
November 28th, 2017 at 1:57 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 2:23 PM ^
But Drake Harris clearly had a catch in the 4th that the replay showed that they called incomplete and was never reviewed.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:17 PM ^
The catch was made and then after hitting the ground, the ball came free. And the booth is claiming that this is a legitimate incomplete pass. No. It went for practically no gain, but if you apply the catch standard for this play as any other, forward progress should have been granted.
November 28th, 2017 at 3:05 PM ^
and yet I always find myself agreeing with them.
Ohio State and their refs can suck my balls.
November 28th, 2017 at 4:32 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 4:54 PM ^
Take the last 2 Michigan - OSU games, subject the entire game to a review of calls made and not made. Add it up, and see if there is any bias.
Why can't Warde have this done? Hell if he did a kickstarter campaign to pay for it, the funds would probably show up in 10 minutes.
WTF? Why is this so hard?
November 28th, 2017 at 5:09 PM ^
we didnt lose because of officiating, but it didnt help either. Its clear their is a bias towards Jims teams and its out of control and I dont know why its not a bigger story. (and thats why I believe the post from a week or so back...OP was describing him talking to Wisconsin folks after the game and they knew a high up person in B1G officiating office and claimed Jim will always get the worst of the calls because he pissed them off ) I totally buy this shit.
You're a fuckin zebra, do your damn job with no bias and call a fair game
Now..... the really good teams overcome this garbage, obvioulsy not there yet..... but if someone said Im full of shit and making excuses ill fight that til the grave.
November 28th, 2017 at 5:13 PM ^
November 28th, 2017 at 5:16 PM ^