[Patrick Barron]

I Have Emerged Steaming From The Ancient Ice Comment Count

Brian November 13th, 2023 at 11:57 AM

11/11/2023 – Michigan 24, Penn State 15 – 10-0, 7-0 Big Ten

Everyone I have talked to in the last two weeks has been furious. I have also been furious, of course, but other people have been so furious that I—me, myself—have been attempting to calm people down. I have asserted that the Big Ten would not wantonly screw Michigan out of a football game with refereeing; that maybe the guy who sounds like he's running a Taliban cell should take a step back; that leaving the Big Ten is an absurd—

…actually, no wait, I was just on WTKA asserting that leaving the Big Ten was now an eventual likelihood. I, too, have been overrun with the madness everyone else has been. And I'm just a guy on the internet.

Can you imagine being actually on the team swept up in all of this? For three weeks you've had various take-merchants descend upon this like so many deeply ignorant paratroopers. A select, deficient subset of these folks have asserted that Michigan shouldn't get to play in the CoFoPoff. I know what it's like to be a fan of this team and hear these things. I want to sink my incisors into Stephen A Smith's neck and raise his decapitated head to the skies as a trophy. How does Trevor Keegan feel, and how on God's green earth does he sit down in a stance before every play and not get a penalty for death-murder?

I do not know. 

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There's a great Andy Staples article in the aftermath of the 2017 Michigan-Penn State game—a 42-17 PSU demolition at the hands of Joe Moorhead and Saquon Barkley—that goes into great detail about the opening play. That was a 69-yard Barkley touchdown where Barkley took a direct snap and used Trace McSorley as a running back. As far as gambits went it was relatively short-lived; the next year Michigan stomped all of the inverse mesh points. But it had a thunderous debut, and I remember thinking Joe Moorhead was pretty good at his job specifically because of one thing:

The only detail remaining was to leave a crease for Barkley to escape through when he pulled the ball back from McSorley’s belly. That was achieved by having left tackle Ryan Bates pass set instead of run block. That drew defensive end Rashan Gary on an upfield rush and opened a seam to the left for Barkley.

At the time I was the person charting all of Rashan Gary's snaps and frequently complaining that Gary's desire to rush the passer—to demonstrate why he was the #1 recruit in America—frequently saw him shoot 10 yards upfield to the detriment of the Michigan defense. Moorhead saw that, too, and stuck a dagger in Michigan's belly on the first play. A chagrined Gary dialed it back.

What if the opposition was completely incapable of dialing it back? Things looked bad for Michigan after two drives because whoever lined up against Karsen Barnhart was instantly past him. Sherrone Moore adjusted. He literally stopped calling dropback passes and eventually stopped calling passes, period. Faced with third and ten he ran a crack sweep with his quarterback; faced with third and eleven he shot Donovan Edwards out the backside of a play where not one but two Penn State players were recklessly headed for the quarterback.

Nothing changed for Penn State. Not one thing. Michigan finally closed the door immediately after a Penn State four-and-out turnover on downs when Robinson, who so many centuries ago was marauding through the Michigan backfield, got blown out of a gap by trying to get upfield:

That is how Michigan called game.

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You could hear the emotion pouring off Sherrone Moore in his post-game interview. Our dude was weeping, thanking God, and dropping three cuss words on national television. Next to him, a bloodied Blake Corum stood, gently leaking onto the Beaver Stadium field. Michigan has been the subject of a month-long PR campaign attempting to spin a useless scheme executed by an overzealous staffer into the Greatest Scandal In Big Ten History, and the dullard currently running the conference bought it hook, line and sinker.

By the time the league finally acted, Jim Harbaugh was literally on a plane to Happy Valley. The entire Michigan universe is furious, and we're not even on the team.I have no idea what kind of rage players on the team must have felt. Their head coach is suspended right before a top-ten road matchup. The thing they've worked their whole lives for is under threat due to actions they knew nothing about and had nothing to do with. Their play since the scandal-type substance broke is indication enough that whatever Connor Stalions was doing had approximately zero impact on how good this football team is.

It is incredible that Michigan took all of that, bottled it up, coldly evaluated the way you lose to this Penn State team—a strip-sack—and then ran a second-half gameplan far removed from what anyone would recognize as winning football in 2023. They won with it.

On top of the injury Tony Petitti delivered, there was plenty of insult to go around. Penn State defenders were taunting Michigan with cringy sign-stealing celebrations. Their defensive coordinator made a similarly cringy joke on a hype video posted a couple days before the game. Michigan ate all of that. They shoved it into a hole. They did not spear a guy in the helmet from behind, or take two personal foul penalties on one play, or lose their cool in any discernible way. They just handled their business.

In the end, it was Penn State that could not gear down. It was Penn State that kept flinging guys across the line of scrimmage long after it was clear that Michigan was anticipating that. The home team lost the plot, not Michigan. The day after, James Franklin threw yet another Spinal Tap drummer under the bus by firing Mike Yurich. After all that, they're the shook ones.

Players will tell you they shut all the noise out. They don't. They can't. It's clear that Michigan has been steeping in the same poisonous online media spaces we all have been, from the team-wide "bet" tweets in the aftermath of the suspension to what Corum did when he shut the door on Penn State for good: the same thing Manny Diaz did. Except instead of "get there early," "be loud," and "especially on third down" they meant:

Time's up.

I can't hear you.

You're next, Third Base.

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[Barron]

AWARDS

Known Friends and Trusted Agents Of The Week

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[Barron]

you're the man now, dog-2535ac8789d1b499[1]

#1 Blake Corum. 26 carries for 145 yards, 5.6 a pop, against what was statistically one of the best defenses in America, while Michigan was metaphorically holding up a big sign that said "RUN" on every second-half snap.

#2 Kenneth Grant. Four solo tackles as a NT; popped up early and often to clobber PSU run plays. Turned in the play of the game on defense when he ran down Kaytron Allen on PSU's only explosive play.

#3 The Offensive Line. See the Corum items above. Can't move them higher because Barnhart was the major reason Michigan held up the big RUN sign, but drop out the sack and the two kneeldowns and Michigan's output: 43 carries, 263 yards, 6.1 YPC, against a team coming off a game against Maryland where they "gave up" –49 yards.

Honorable mention: JJ McCarthy was efficient on his eight attempts and added 44 yards on 7 carries; AJ Barner was the main reason Corum's bounce went long; Donovan Edwards popped two explosives and narrowly missed a second touchdown; Rayshaun Benny had a TFL and forced a fumble; Will Johnson chased the only PSU receiver around.

KFaTAotW Standings.

(points: #1: 8, #2: 5, #3: 3, HMs one each. Ties result in somewhat arbitrary assignments.)

45: JJ McCarthy (#1 ECU, #1 UNLV, #2 Rutgers, HM Nebraska, #2 Minn, #1 IU, #1 MSU, HM PUR, HM PSU)
23: Kris Jenkins (HM ECU, T2 UNLV, #1 BGSU, HM Rutgers, #1 Neb, HM MSU)
18: Blake Corum (HM ECU, HM UNLV, #2 BGSU, HM Rutgers, HM Neb, HM IU, #1 PSU)
15: Mason Graham (HM ECU, T2 UNLV, #1 Minn, HM IU, HM MSU)
14: Roman Wilson (T2 ECU, HM UNLV, HM BGSU, #3 Nebraska, #2 PUR)
13: Mike Sainristil (T3 ECU, HM BGSU, #1 Rutgers, HM IU, HM MSU)
11: Mike Barrett (HM UNLV, T3 Rutgers, #2 IU, T1 PUR), AJ Barner (HM BGSU, HM Neb, HM Minn, T3 IU, T2 MSU, HM PSU), Kenneth Grant (T3 ECU, T2 UNLV, #2 PSU)
10: Braiden McGregor(T3 UNLV, #2 Nebraska, T1 PUR)
9: Colston Loveland (HM Rutgers, T3 IU, T2 MSU, HM PUR)
7: Cornelius Johnson (T2 ECU, HM UNLV, HM BGSU, HM Minn), Derrick Moore (T3 UNLV, HM Neb, HM MSU, T1 PUR), Will Johnson(#3 Minn, #3 PUR, HM PSU)
6: Junior Colson (#3 BGSU, T3 Rutgers, HM MSU), Jaylen Harrell (HM UNLV, HM BGSU, HM IU, T1 PUR)
4: Ernest Hausmann (T3 ECU, T3 Rutgers), Max Bredeson (HM Rutgers, HM Neb, T3 IU), Josiah Stewart (HM Minn, T1 PUR), The Offensive Line (HM Minn, #3 PSU)
2:  Josh Wallace (T3 ECU), Semaj Morgan (HM Rutgers, HM PUR), Donovan Edwards (HM ECU, HM PSU)
1: Tommy Doman (HM ECU), Tyler Morris (HM UNLV), Quinten Johnson (HM Rutgers), Kalel Mullings (HM Minn),Keon Sabb (HM Minn), Ben Hall (HM IU), Rod Moore (HM PUR), Rayshaun Benny (HM PSU)

Who's Got It Better Than Us(?) Of The Week

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THE DON [Barron]

Sherrone Moore shows Manny Diaz his liver with a third-and-eleven run from just outside the redzone that Donovan Edwards cashes for a touchdown and a 14-3 lead.

Honorable mention: Corum calls game. Rayshaun Benny punches a ball out that Makari Paige falls on.

imageMARCUS HALL EPIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEK

Karsen Barnhart gives up three –2 pass pro events in the first four potential pass pro events, leading me and probably many others to believe that Michigan was totally boned.

Honorable mention: Quinten Johnson INT is (correctly) overturned, which makes the Michael Barrett penalty a first down, which eventually leads to a touchdown, which prevents the score from looking like the game, which irritates me a great deal. Cam Goode's spectacular pass rush turns into a first down because he overruns the dude. Officials inexplicably overturn a running into the kicker penalty that would have given Michigan a first down. PSU scores a QB draw TD on which Mason Graham is obviously, materially held.

NICK SAMAC PATHETIC DOUBLE BIRD OF THE WEEKsamac_thumb1

I don't know, maybe the Big Ten suspending Jim Harbaugh as he was literally on a plane to Happy Valley. Maybe the fanciful notion that suspending Harbaugh is a sanction against the University because he embodies the football team. Maybe pretending like this penny-ante bullshit is Endangering The Student Athletes. Maybe everything Tony Petitti has done since becoming Big Ten commissioner. I really thought I wouldn't be handing this out on a weekly basis but we're not off to a great start.

Dishonorable mention: N/A

[After THE JUMP: Manny gonna Manny]

OFFENSE

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[Barron]

The play that changed the game. Michigan's down 3-0, they've got a third and ten, Joel Klatt is busy telestrating how the bunch set Michigan is in will at least force PSU's DEs to go further around Barnhart to get to McCarthy. And then:

I'll get into this more in UFR but Morgan's motion takes away one defender and then PSU is so intent on stopping the potential zone read keep that on the snap three PSU defenders end up behind the last M OL. From there it's hat on a hat and a conversion. And a new world.

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All too easy [Barron]

Manny can't help himself. The play immediately after that was the first Edwards explosive. Michigan has their heavy package in: 7 OL, two tight ends. Just watch the left half of the PSU defense:

three PSU players to the bottom

All three of those guys shoot straight upfield and are gone, giving Edwards the world's largest cutback lane. PSU then gets Michigan into a third down. Manny sends six guys across the LOS and his tricksy changeup is dropping a guy into the flat to the boundary; Semaj Morgan is untouched by anyone not named Trevor Keegan until he's well past the sticks:

This drive was capped off by Penn State going "argh, we've only got eleven guys" when presented with yet another Michigan front with infinite gaps. They ran a twelfth on; Michigan got three yards anyway.

The bounce. Similar deal on the 42-yarder for Corum: the entire defense is flinging itself upfield, in part because Michigan has the huge set on and you've got guys who know they'll lose one on one if they play it straight. The two guys on the left side of the line are Tyler Elsdon, who is 229 pounds, and Dom DeLuca, who is 218. Elsdon ends up on the ground in the backfield; DeLuca is trying so hard to not get blown out by Barner that he entirely fails to set an edge.

Head down, off balance, no thought to setting the edge: DeLuca is playing this like it's fourth and goal from the one and he has to gamble. That's PSU's defense in a nutshell.

The big yikes. Michigan saw three Karsen Barnhart pass pro snaps on which PSU DEs teleported to McCarty on their first two drives and decided they weren't going to run a dropback pass the rest of the game. The game previews have that section about worrying/cackling that's supposed to highlight areas of the game where expectations could turn in a hurry, and ahyup:

Worry if...

  • PSU DEs are teleporting past Michigan tackles.

I felt pretty pretty bad about things after those first couple drives, and then Sherrone And The Big Big Boys came out and ground Penn State to dust.

Our concern, now, dude, is what happens in two weeks. I am here to say you should tamp down on the panic for a couple different reasons. One is that Barnhart has already played the OSU DEs and came out of last year's game with a total of 2 pass pro minuses. (PFF has one of the most bizarre grades I can remember for that game: they charged Barnhart with two pressures surrendered on 27 dropbacks and gave him a grade of 5. Out of 100.) JTT and Sawyer have improved this year but I don't think it's going to be a bloodbath like PSU's ends were able to issue. Both of those guys are bigger speed to power types instead of the pure edge get-off guys PSU has, and when Barnhart has gone up against very good versions of those players this year he has hung in.

Two is that this was Michigan's first (and last) road game at a venue where the crowd was a real problem. Michigan has been very good all year about getting out of the huddle early and using their varied clap snap counts to neutralize get-off and get semi-frequent free plays. At Penn State Michigan went to a silent count for the first time all year, leading to various issues. One of those was DEs looking at the ball getting out of their stance before Barnhart, who was looking at the DEs.

Dennis-Sutton moves first there. He's not supposed to get to move first. The third and final teleport issue saw Chop Robinson move before anyone on Michigan's OL, including the center who, you know, snapped the ball.

That said, this is what I was concerned about in the season preview when I said Barnhart was the Cade McNamara amongst the four starting-ish tackles. I think he will hang in against OSU, but a mediocre run game score around 0 and 5-7 pass pro minuses is probably the best case scenario. The second teleport wasn't a get-off issue, it was just Barnhart getting roasted.

The difference. Both teams had first and goal from the three in this game. Penn State got stuffed on first down and threw on second and third, then kicked a field goal. Michigan punched it in easily on first down.

DEFENSE

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[Barron]

Also a controlled demolition. I must admit some early irritations at Michigan's insistence on sitting back with two deep safeties and general lack of OSU-style utter contempt for the Penn State receiving corps. Michigan allowed a number of effective runs because they were fine with PSU getting to double a DT for a long period of time and at no point got particularly aggressive. If they were so inclined they could have throttled the PSU offense even more than they did.

They were not inclined; they continue to run a relatively conservative defense aimed primarily at containing Ohio State—not a typo—and forcing them into third down after third down after third down if they want to drive the field. Even their short yardage stops weren't aggressive. Michigan forces a punt here on a QB run; PSU has a hat for a hat as Michigan runs a six man box:

Penn State's lone touchdown drive that meant anything was a rickety contraption that required two fourth down conversions, one of them on a throwback to the quarterback, and a flagrantly missed hold on Mason Graham. This game was much closer to 30-6 than a competitive final score.

The long run. Two main issues. One: Derrick Moore gets sealed instantly and is not helpful stringing the play out. Two: Michael Barrett does not funnel to help. If Barrett gets outside of the second puller either Grant or Colson gets him down after 5-6 yards. Speaking of…

Holy Mother Of God, Kenneth Grant. You author heard the "this guy just got drafted" music during this play:

That is a holy lock to be on his draft reel. Also:

We got dang close to the 10 OL + Orji package in this game. I will revise my request to 10 OL + Kenneth Grant.

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[Barron]

A preview? One thing that jumped out: Will Johnson in the slot. This has not happened all year, but there he was on Penn State's first third down:

CB #2 over slot to bottom

He's there because KeAndre Lambert-Smith is there, and he is the only Penn State receiver worth worrying about. Johnson followed Lambert-Smith around for much of the day, and Lambert-Smith did nothing. The mind naturally projects this approach a couple weeks down the road and envisions Johnson following Marvin Harrison Jr around.

Two problems with that: one is that Emeka Egbuka is also a first-round talent. The second is that Johnson in the slot was a man coverage giveaway every time. Michigan has been playing Mike Sainristil on the outside with some frequency this year, so the only thing they need to have a curveball is for Johnson to be able to execute some zone drops from the slot.

Rotation: reduced! It very much did not seem like Michigan had tightened their silly deep rotation live since Cam Goode, Rayshaun Benny, and Quinten Johnson kept popping up on crucial plays but, yes, the rotation did get tightened up. Somewhat. DT snaps: Graham 43, Grant 33, Jenkins 32, Goode 18, Benny 14.

DE snaps remained split approximately 50/50 between the four contenders. Colson and Barrett had 54 and 58 snaps, respectively, with Hausmann picking up 17 largely thanks to some short yardage packages. CBs other than Wallace, Sainristil, and Johnson did not appear; Quinten Johnson had 19 snaps and Sabb 11.

Covering grass. Colson's old bugaboo showed up on PSU's late touchdown. Michigan had him in a robber zone in the middle of the field and he just stayed in a spot when drifting towards the tight end is a PBU or INT.

SPECIAL TEAMS

Eh? Not a whole lot to talk about. Some punts went back and forth. PSU had a fairly good return called back for a relevant hold. The other special teams event belongs in the next category because it is a ref event.

MISCELLANEOUS

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please ask me questions about the dumb stuff i did, not the okay stuff [Barron]

FRAMES! The third segment of our podcast used to have a lot of discussion about game theory stuff, but of late football coaches have been close to 100% correct on decisions that aren't a coinflip so all that rabbling about going for it on fourth down has given way to a brief "any game theory stuff?" followed by a "no," and then we move on. But Frames. Frames always provides content. Thank you Frames.

There were five points of interest for PSU in this game:

  • Punting on fourth and inches on his own 34 early in the second quarter.
  • Going for two after scoring late in the first half; PSU failed and was down 14-9.
  • Punting on fourth and three on their own 45 at the end of the third quarter, down 17-9.
  • Going for it on fourth and six on their own 30 with about eight minutes left.
  • Going for two after scoring with two minutes left down nine; this also failed so PSU was down nine and had to onside kick.

Ironically, the one impregnably correct decision Franklin made—the second decision to go for two—was the one he caught heat for in the postgame press conference. That decision was fairly close to the platonic ideal of the go-for-it-early camp, because PSU immediately knew that they had to go onside since they were down two scores. If they get the two point conversion they could kick it deep, play D, and try to score with about a minute left on the clock.

For purposes of making people finally stop tweeting at me about this it would have been better if PSU had another minute and another timeout, making the kick-it-deep scenario more plausible in the event of a made two-pointer. Alas.

As for the other decisions: the early decision to punt was probably correct given the game state, the fact your offense blows, and your defense is rad. Arguing against is that the distance was clearly in QB sneak territory. I'd want Michigan to go there, because they are Michigan. Penn State? I'm not so sure. Ditto the fourth and three punt. If your offense is not completely broken, you go. But it is.

This set of facts about PSUs offense and defense also makes the first decision to go for two completely indefensible. If you're Oregon and the final score of your game is going to be 52-48, sure, whatever, have fun. If you are Penn State your shot at converting from the three is not the 50/50 that people commonly use when evaluating these decisions. It's much worse, and the upside is… what, exactly? If you kick a field goal and Michigan doesn't score again you're tied? FOH.

Similarly, the decision to go on fourth and six from your own thirty was suicide. You're not in a good spot either way but chances are you get the ball back; given the state of the offense the chances of conversion were slim and the chances of getting the ball back were even better than normal.

I genuinely wonder if there's a Vegas adjustment for "James Franklin is going to do something dumb" in the lines. Doesn't seem like it.

Didn't get jobbed, but… Michigan was on the wrong end of the two most consequential non-calls of the game. Penn State's first half touchdown is 98% a field goal if the hold on Graham is called, and Michigan was robbed of a possession when the officials inexplicably picked up a running into/roughing the kicker flag, claiming that a guy who had flung himself over Michigan's wall had been blocked into Tommy Doman.

I cannot imagine that is the way that rule is supposed to be applied, because that gives license to defenders to recklessly hurl themselves over blockers. If they get touched on the way through, anything that happens after isn't their fault. Kyle strikes again.

We did it. We made it on to Art But Make It Sports:

LFG.

HERE

Best and Worst:

…after the game Sherrone Moore showed some emotion during his interview, tearing up while professing his appreciation for this team and Jim Harbaugh with some colorful fucking language.  It was one of the more genuine displays of emotions you’ll see out of a coach in today’s game.

But because you’ve all been on the internet before, you already know how this was received by a subset of people out there.  Matt Fortuna, who apparently has a newsletter about college football but has never heard about Hugh Freeze, opined that this display of callous disregard for (checks notes) the ears of college football players might cost him a job.  Dan Dakich, yes that Dan Dakich but also THAT Dan Dakich, opined about the loss of masculinity because of Moore’s outburst, because the person we definitely should listen about handling his emotions is a guy who yells at college swimmers online and got fired for calling a HS student a meth head.  Feel free to look up his tweet if you want; I already feel gross sending traffic to Elon Musk’s failed mid-life crisis without also signal-boosting a dipshit who weirdly didn’t have much to say about Ryan Day voice-cracking his way through an interview earlier this year.  Sort of a mystery why one coach’s display of emotion was deeply offensive to Mr. Dakich and not the other, but I’ll leave that sleuthing up to the intrepid Twitter timeline searcher.

But the mere fact that this display of emotion, that caring about something as cosmically inconsequential as who wins or losses a football game, is “bad” has always bugged me.

State of our Open Threads:

Speaking of us being excitable, let's talk about fucks given:

The precise number of fucks given yesterday was 475 - some of you may have given some offline. I did certainly. This obliterates the previous season high, which was 158 for the Purdue game, and indeed, yesterday's total moves the season average from 85 to 122 by itself. It was a lot of fucks, but we had a lot of occasion to use that word. The usage varied from discontent with the conference, to Tony Petitti personally, to the refs, to the strategic abandonment of passing, plus several more. The larger point is that emotions were high among the fanbase as well, and it certainly showed.

Iowatch!

Here’s a fun fact: Iowa has not lost to Rutgers with Brian Ferentz as OC. Iowa won 22-0, Deacon “Happy Learned How to Putt Uh Oh” Hill increased his season’s passing total by almost 50%...and I refuse to describe this game any further. You know how Iowa wins games. It was a bloodbath.

I’ve called Greg Schiano “one of the best game planners in the conference.” Schiano agrees, and say what you like about the dude (believe me I will), self-esteem is not one of his issues. It doesn’t take conference-wide collaboration to figure out that Iowa’s offense has only two signs: 1) “not in the face!”, and 2) "not in the gonads!” But. The Iowa defense likewise has two signals: 1) “kick him in the crotch, dammit, the crotch!”, and 2) “if you let my football go now, that will be the end of it…”. Didn’t plan on that, did ya?

A report from Happy Valley:

PSU fans remarkably nice: My neighbor in DC is from Detroit and went to UM.  He always goes to the Maryland and Rutgers games when in the region.  I asked him about PSU and he said he went once, and that it was such a horrible experience with the fans whom he said “were animals” that he would never go again (he’s African American, so maybe I got a different experience). But, for us, the PSU fans were lovely, talkative, funny, helpful.

Change is Death.

Comments

wavintheflag

November 13th, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^

Glad you brought up the snap timing on Barhart. Rewatched a bit yesterday and it was crazy how close it was on those first pressures. Maybe they did not think correctable in game ... risk you mentioned of strip sack / Int. 

kehnonymous

November 13th, 2023 at 12:45 PM ^

Karsten Barnhart vs JTT is a potentially problematic matchup, but I'm not losing sleep and pulling out my hair because - no offense to JTT - Chop Robinson is better and I would also rate his teammate Adisa Isaac over Jack Sawyer.  JTT could absolutely maul us if we wear Penn State uniforms for The Game, I guess?

They will be an advantageous matchup for the bad guys, no doubt, but they won't singlehandedly shut off downfield passing for us like Penn State did (although there were.... mitigating circumstances for that, and let's not forget that JJ was still a very efficient 7/8 passing)

Mr. Elbel

November 13th, 2023 at 12:46 PM ^

Watched this game with about 25 PSU alums. I wait tables every weekend and a local alumni group gets together for watch parties where I work. I called dibs on serving them on Saturday. Was a very enjoyable experience, and they still tipped me!

cappy412

November 13th, 2023 at 12:52 PM ^

Brian, your predictions for this game were pretty accurate. As pointed out, the "worry if" about the PSU DEs proved to be concerningly spot on, but thankfully we got the "cackle with knowing glee" of "Frames Janklin jankles it up." Additionally, stupid predictions were almost spot on until the final clock-drain drive for Penn State:

  • An old-timey Michigan game with 25 Blake Corum carries that go for 120 yards (he had 26 for 145)
  • PSU drives the field once. They also get Michigan on a trick play. (before that last drive this was completely accurate, the one trick play being the throwback to Allar [Edit: I guess they technically did twice, since that field goal was from the 5 yard line, but since it wasn't a TD I'll give it a pass])
  • Michigan, 30-9 (24-9 before the final drive)

KennyHiggins

November 13th, 2023 at 12:54 PM ^

This game was just a tune-up for THE GAME, when we're going to possess the ball for 40 minutes, and reduce Day to a blubbering mess on the sideline, as he finds out what real toughness is.

Ballislife

November 13th, 2023 at 12:55 PM ^

This drive was capped off by Penn State going "argh, we've only got eleven guys" when presented with yet another Michigan front with infinite gaps. They ran a twelfth on; Michigan got three yards anyway.

Michigan Toughness. As compared to OSU "toughness" struggling to gain a yard twice against 10 men when they played ND. 

goblu330

November 13th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^

Great writeup.

Two things:

1. The Barkley play was the second offensive play of the game;

2. I simply do not understand your logic with regard to going for two down 9 with a little over two minutes left.  If you kick the extra point it is a one possession game.  Either you are going onside or not down 8, but you have two timeouts left and theoretical chance to get the ball back and tie it regardless.  If you go for two and don't get it the game is over because you are not going to get the ball back twice anyway. 

While I don't really care, I urge you to reconsider your position.  It is clearly, objectively not the right move to go for 2 there and it is at-odds with your usual, very correct, football taeks.

Romeowolv

November 13th, 2023 at 1:22 PM ^

Couldnt agree more on number 2.  Going for two and not converting essentially ends the game at that point, as it did.  Go for one and you keep drawing the game out.  Not to mention the mental aspect of it.  Big difference if you think you are one score down ("We're still in this game, lets go") compared to 9 points down ("this thing is over").

Ltdinh

November 13th, 2023 at 1:26 PM ^

Being down 8 points is only a one possession game ~50% of the time. You still need to make the two point conversion to tie. It's better to attempt the two point conversion earlier so you can plan what needs to be done. The podcast goes over all of this in more detail, even the mental aspect of being down 9.

J. Redux

November 13th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^

It's closer to 40% -- and probably closer to 25% with PSU's offense, and 10% if you've got James Franklin as your head coach.

Did none of you who are arguing this point actually watch the two-point conversion play they tried?!  How is it somehow better to do that at the end of the game, which no chance to recover?

Ltdinh, you are 100% correct.  This is not difficult.

J. Redux

November 13th, 2023 at 1:58 PM ^

You have even less chance to recover if you've burned the clock and scored with 3 seconds left to go down 2, have to try the same two-point conversion, and miss it.

At least, down 9, you have a chance to have two more possessions if you need them, as you will if the two-point conversion is missed.

wile_e8

November 13th, 2023 at 2:02 PM ^

One question: Outside of loss aversion, what is the big benefit from kicking the XP and delaying the 2-point conversion? Even if you assume that the game is over if you miss the 2-pointer, it's not like delaying the attempt gives you better odds at converting. The only benefit is avoiding any potential bad news for longer. 

If anything, I'd think converting early would be extra motivating. Now, instead of having the dreaded 2-point attempt looming over any drive, your team knows that a touchdown automatically* ties the game. That seems to matter way more than avoiding the miss, especially since we're assuming the game is over whenever you miss. 

*99% 

AWAS

November 13th, 2023 at 2:10 PM ^

The benefit is that you have more plays to be executed before the game is "decided".  There is some random stuff that happens in a football game, and you should allow the chance for that to happen and influence the final outcome, rather than failing when going for two and deciding the game before those other events are allowed to occur.  Please refer to "trouble with the snap" for a relevant example.  

wile_e8

November 13th, 2023 at 2:39 PM ^

I think pointing out randomness strengthens the argument for going for two early. After all, who knows what word things could happen when you're trying to score twice? In the mean time, if your kick early, you still need to convert two pointer to make any trouble with the snap matter. 

BananaRepublic

November 13th, 2023 at 2:12 PM ^

I think the big gain for taking the points and making it an 8 point game is that you need another score no matter what and are my players going to play harder knowing that the game is statistically over or will they play harder knowing that they have a chance to get to OT if they score on this drive? I want my team feeling like it's actually possible to win and I'll take that advantage over the "advantage" of knowing i need two onside kicks (a miracle) to win.

wile_e8

November 13th, 2023 at 2:36 PM ^

But by that sentiment, wouldn't the players play extra hard if you go for two and make it, knowing they can tie it with an extra point? This is just loss aversion again, your focused totally on the bad things that will happen if you miss, while completely ignoring the good things that will happen if you make it.

BananaRepublic

November 13th, 2023 at 2:45 PM ^

If you go for 2 and make it, they still know you need to get the ball back and get another touchdown. if you go for 1, they know the same thing. The only thing that absolutely blows up their psyche and ends the game is going for 2 and failing. If we can do away with the idea that it's a realistic idea that you can get two onside kicks and score twice more to win, the only thing we're talking about in terms of advantage is what kind of mindset your players are in after the first score. 

There's a reason Beaver Stadium began to empty as they were lining up for the onside kick. Everyone knows it's over

Hensons Mobile…

November 13th, 2023 at 3:20 PM ^

Wile_e8, these "don't go for two down 9" zealots cannot be convinced. I've tried. I see you're trying. It's just an incredible psychological block that some of the population has. It's like, some people think cilantro tastes like soap and that's just how their body is, can't be changed, apparently. (Cilantro is an excellent herb, btw.)

Once you've backed them into the "but they'll player harder down 8" I think that's where you can just stop and call it a win for yourself.

I see your point, trying to use their line of reasoning that they would play even harder if they're down 7. But like you said, it's just loss aversion, and that is a psychological hurdle, and it's how these fans feel, and it's possible that it is how some players feel, and you will not help these fans overcome it.

Hensons Mobile…

November 14th, 2023 at 8:09 AM ^

Honestly I can't believe the vitriol in this discussion.

Banana Republic said no one was giving him reasons, just insults, which is untrue. People on both sides are explaining their positions exhaustively.

Imagine the game is a video football game and being controlled by the AI. The go for two early decision is objectively the correct decision.

But it's not a video game being played by AI. And as I noted to Wile E. Coyote (or whatever it was) I think that the "but human psychology" argument should be accepted as a valid argument. That doesn't mean it's correct. The one objective truth is the math one (that you vehemently refuse to accept) which means that "human psychology" is the only counter and it is a counter that I am advocating that people should consider.

As a counter to that, people have said you can overcome that with coaching (as is explained by Brian et al. on the podcast and also in this thread) but just because you can try to overcome it with coaching doesn't mean it's a surefire guarantee to overcome it with coaching, so your position is okay. Okay? It's okay! But it is not objectively THE only correct approach.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 13th, 2023 at 3:28 PM ^

The big benefit is this: Either way you have to recover an onside kick.  That much you know.  If the defense knows you have to score twice, they'll trade yardage for clock.  If the defense knows you only have to score once, they can't bleed your clock out.  In fact, bleeding clock might work against them.

The whole "you get more information if you go for two" argument totally ignores the fact that the defense gets more information too!

With two minutes to go, you are not getting two possessions.  Not.  If you do, the second one will be essentially useless, so you are depending on crazy-unlikely nonsense endings.  The "go for two" argument is saying "well you can preserve the possibility of crazy Hail Mary type shit happening."  It is a logical argument with six minutes to go, not with less than two.

You kick early and you keep your team in the game.  If you fail on the 2PC later, yes, you lose.  If you fail on it earlier, the chances of coming back from that are so close to zero it's not worth actually staking a game on that.

J. Redux

November 13th, 2023 at 4:39 PM ^

Michigan scored 2 touchdowns in the last 1:12 of the UTL game -- quite possibly three, actually, because I think the last play of the game might actually have been a Michigan touchdown on the ensuing kickoff but it was never reviewed.

You kick early and you keep your team in the game. 

This is faulty logic -- it's loss aversion.

I'd also point out that nobody would be talking about this if they'd made the 2PC.  It's only coming up because they missed it, but there's absolutely no reason to believe they'd have somehow made it if only they'd waited until there was less time afterwards.  So, either way they were going to need three possessions -- and let's face it, do you really like PSU's chance of scoring on a 2PC?  Did you see the play they ran?  The only difference is that they knew it, whereas someone who makes the analytically incorrect choice to kick the XP can wallow longer in their ignorance.

As others have stated, it also opens up the possibility of winning in regulation by making two 2PCs, which kicking the XP would eschew.

There are no valid reasons to kick the XP.  None.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 13th, 2023 at 9:21 PM ^

Continuing to keep your team in the game with a chance to win is the literal opposite of loss aversion.

And bringing up the UTL game just proves my point.  That was a legendary game that is still talked about 12 years later.  You're saying to plan for a miracle.  And even that legendary, miraculous, incredible game is not applicable, because Notre Dame explicitly did not bleed clock when they got the ball back because they couldn't - they were losing.  So Michigan scored two touchdowns in the last 2:05 (not 1:12 - there was 1:12 left after they scored the first TD, so you're misrepresenting the situation) and they were only able to do so because they'd put ND in a score-or-die situation.  The legendariness of the game combined with the fact that ND did not bleed clock tells you just how damned hard it is to score twice.  Don't put yourself in a position to score twice when you could just put yourself in a position to score once.

And no, they weren't going to need "three possessions either way" because your idea that a 2PC counts as another separate possession is faulty.  If you can win or tie without giving the other team the ball back (or at least the chance to receive a kickoff) it's one possession.  Ergo the reason to kick the XP is to make it a one possession game.

Red is Blue

November 13th, 2023 at 9:46 PM ^

My guess (based on using MGoBlog responses to crowd sourcing the appropriate approach) is the decision on whether you go for 2 after the first or second TD is close to 50/50.  There are legit arguments on both sides and the responses seem to be split fairly evenly.  

To me, the bottom line is once you miss the 2 pt conversion the game is nearly over.  Your odds of winning are very low whether you're down 9 with 2 minutes left or down 2 with mere seconds.

Unless the timing of going for 2 matters wrt your odds of converting then it seems pretty inconsequential which you choose.

 

 

goblu330

November 13th, 2023 at 1:41 PM ^

I absolute disagree.  Going for two brings in the only reasonable chance of the game literally being over right then and there.  Any person relying on analytics to reach the decision to go for two is relying on the wrong ones.  Any reasonable person is going to take the option that virtually guarantees a theoretical opportunity to tie the football game without bringing in the possibility of ending it.   It is a matter of common sense, and frankly in my opinion, so cut and dry that there is an objective "right" and "wrong" answer.

gbdub

November 13th, 2023 at 2:02 PM ^

Which situation is better:

I miss a 2PT conversion, but have a little time left to get an onside kick and score again.

I miss a 2PT conversion and there are zeros on the clock - I lose. 
 

Or another way:

You are going to find out that you need an extra possession to tie the game. Would you rather know that with 2 minutes and 2 timeouts, or 10 seconds and no timeouts?

BananaRepublic

November 13th, 2023 at 2:05 PM ^

In the first scenario, your players just watched their win probability go from realistic to statistically impossible and you've only scored roughly half the number of points that you needed before. In the second scenario, you get to play with a team that feels it has a real shot at winning without needing a miracle from God until the whistle when they either clutch it or fail. I know which situation I'd rather be in if I were on the team. Put the maximum leverage gotta have it play at the end. Don't crush our confidence when we just started the comeback.

Carpetbagger

November 13th, 2023 at 2:01 PM ^

Being down 8 points is only a one possession game ~50% of the time

Horseshit. And a 2 point conversion is worth 1.2 points. All gibberish statistics.

An 8 point game is 1 possession. You have to make it pay off, but it IS possible to tie. A 9 point game is ALWAYS 2 possessions. 

There are 85 players that all know this because they play football not write code.

EGD

November 13th, 2023 at 7:29 PM ^

I understand the argument. Go for two as early as possible so that you know how many possessions you need. In the abstract it makes sense. Perhaps it has been statistically validated in some way. But to suggest that people who don’t agree with this view are anti-intellectual losers is offensive and baseless.

The argument that being down one possession vs. two possessions may demoralize a team seems meritorious. Yes, perhaps a team should be mentally tougher and never quit, but that’s a different issue. It also appears likely to affect the opponent’s behavior; if I am up nine, I’m just going to run clock and take zero chances so you never get two possessions. But if I am up eight, I might throw the ball or do something risky to try and get a first down. Also, if I’m at home and everybody leaves once I fail on the 2-point try, now I may have diminished my home field advantage as well.

Once you are late enough in the game that multiple additional meaningful possessions becomes close to a statistical impossibility, these other considerations seem to heavily outweigh the raw mathematics. And I consider it extremely unlikely that whatever mathematical modeling has been conducted on this question accounts for all these types of factors.

gbdub

November 13th, 2023 at 2:09 PM ^

If you’re going to insist on a “do or die, no matter what I only get one more possession” then which of the two TDs you go for two on is completely irrelevant. Waiting a few minutes isn’t going to make your 2 pt try more or less likely to succeed. 

If you need some feelingsball because you can’t trust your team to understand very simple conditional reasoning, tell them you’re playing to win in regulation, which might be the smart play anyway.