What Would You Do If There Were a Scandal at Michigan?
Slow day for content on the main page and reading through the "More Bad News for Ohio State..." thread got me thinking:
What would you do if there were a major scandal, especially as it relates to sexual assault/abuse at Michigan?
Like I suspect many of you feel, I'm outraged by what happened at PSU and MSU. As was noted in the discussion on the OSU article today, it sounds like OSU ultimately worked to address the problems at the SCE. But PSU and MSU seem to be different based on what I understand. The institutions not only didn't stop the atrocities, in many ways they assisted in enabling and later covering them up. Yet the fan bases for those schools still support the schools, often citing the fact that "the current players and coaches didn't commit the crimes" or something like that.
So what would cause you to break your allegiance to the school? What would you do? Stop donating? Stop attending games? Stop buying tickets? Tear up your diploma? I have a hard time believing I could support MSU after what happened, but I know plenty of good people who still do -- tribal loyalty and all that...
I'm also interested in this topic (specifically the OSU story) because of the Title IX elements and implications. As the father of a rising Senior daughter at Northwestern and a rising Freshman daughter at U of M, I'm *terrified* of what can happen to a young woman as she's on her own effectively for the first time. As the father of a 14 year old son, I'm also terrified about an environment that judges the accused before all the facts are understood (think Duke Lacrosse...).
I'm really not sure what the universities should be doing to make college a safe place for personal, athletic, and academic growth.
Very interested to hear others' views on these topics.
Create an account over on Black Shoes Diaries called WolverineFan...if I was a glutton for punishment.
Try BWI --- the "level of difficulty" (and insanity) is higher there.
Or create an account here with a koala for an avatar with the name Mean Joe 08.
If it was Penn State level I would have a real hard time supporting the team moving forward.
Clutch my pearls. What else is a random fan going to do?
This is by far the worst post of the offseason.
You are by far the worst poster in the off season and in season. All you do is complain and say dumb shit.
Spunky response. I like it.
Tough talk from a guy with that many points over such a short time. Which banned account are you? Maybe get a life and go outside once in awhile.
That's rich coming from someone with such a rich posting history:
- You continue to be such a loser
- No. He'll get subbed out when he goes to bat. Gamesmanship + Bakich (fire Bakich) wanting to watch BP first.
- Ah that's all you got? small dick loser
- an embarassing team of losers that matches their coach. What a fucking joke
- Yep, fire Bakich. Team full of chokers.
- He's probably doing sex to your mother
- punch yourself fin your small penis
You forgot - "drink too many beers so to go to hospital"
Dude, #1 rule about mgopoints is we don't talk about mgopoints. You know nothing.
Good job. You're the first one to post what gets posted on just about every thread.
Hopefully the title was clear. If you don't want to read it, ignore it. If you have some constructive criticism or interest in a discussion, I'd love to hear it.
The topic is interesting to me, hopefully to others. If not, mods can delete.
Want constructive criticism? Be a good father and teach your son about consent and how to get it, not be worried about him being falsely accused.
Good advice. I'm on it and take that responsibility very seriously.
The son will know what consent is, but can still be falsely accused. I know my 3 sons know what consent is, but I can't account for, predict or prevent a false accusation. False in this case (by definition) means the young man did nothing wrong.
As a Michigan alum and die-hard fan I'm sure I'd do exactly what the alums/die-hard fans do at every other school that's had a scandal
1. Deny the scandal exists
2. When proven to be true, downplay the severity
3. When proven to be severe, point to all the other schools who've suffered a similar fate and ask "whatabout" them
4. Bitch that whatever punishment we receive is unfair, totally over-the-top and a living example that the (whatever governing body punished us) is clearly out to get us
5. Continue to root for Michigan as always.
Same as it ever was.
Your analysis is correct. Except there's a 2.5 where Michigan usually brings the person or people to justice.
When Gary Moeller got drunk and got fired most of the Michigan fan base that I know didn't want him to go, but acquiesced to the idea that you got to pay the piper. His two 8-4 seasons may have made that remedy go down easier, and there wasn't an opportunity to protest, but Michigan did the right thing.
The Fab 5 times are murky to me, but I believe we shipped off Fisher and took down the banners.
After the Fab 5 debacle, I stopped watching Michigan Basketball until they hired John Beilein. The first couple years because I was disgusted with what they did. The rest of the years because I was disgusted with the product and the continued self-flagellation. Was living in WVa when they made the hire, knew he was clean, a fine coach, and I was excited enough to come back.
I admire your honesty sir.
I would climb to the top of the highest peak and denounce the principals involved and demand accountability. Should we burn Michigan down, no? Should we through the book at everyone in the chain, HELL YES!
Integrity is not conditional -- you either have it or you don't.
According to MSU, and PSU fans we already had our sexual scandal in the form of Gibbons. Tag any of them on the institutional level abuse they had and they always go back to Gibbons.
Yeah. I know the rhetoric. I also understand that I/we may be rationalizing.
That being said, one event is very different than a system that enables the behavior for an extended period of time.
It is part of why the topic is interesting to me.
Plus Gibbons was expelled in accordance with the rules (rule did not exist at time of event). The worst thing UofM did was have the football coach lie about why he was expelled. I guess you can argue UofM should have been more proactive at the time of the incident.
Gibbons is a true simian response.
And Grant Perry... they love to go back to Grant Perry
Hard to say. Can't honestly answer until it actually happens to your school, because I'm sure ped state, sparty and buckeye homers would have claimed every bit of integrity until it actually did hit home.
Agree. I do think most if not all Michigan fans would look at the situation a little bit more incisively than we have when it is "them" and not us. I actually think that people have began to almost intentionally not look hard enough at scandalous incidents so as to not have to tone down their outrage in accordance with what actually transpired and who may or may not be at fault. Sometimes splitting hairs is necessary in order to truly determine where exactly the culpability is in situations like that, but then other people fire up and label somebody a "sex abuse sympathizer" when you try to discuss the real fine points of the issues.
I'd laugh at all of you and go cheer for my Alma mater, GVSU.
Great thread!!
I think the Michigan fanbase would respond better than some other universities, but there would still be a significant portion that would respond just as OSU and PSU and Baylor and etc etc did in response to a scandal. People's natural reaction is to protect the thing they know. For most people, if their brother was accused of rape, they would probably side with their brother unless they were literally shown video of the incident. And some, even then wouldn't believe.
I would like to think I would respond appropriately and believe the evidence. But you never really know until it happens to you. I don't defend Lewan, Gibbons or any of the other players that have been involved in some awful things, but most have been pretty cut and dry and there haven't been real coverups. Hoke and Brandon got criticism, and rightfully so, about Gibbons and also the Shane Morris incident. But their popularity was low when those things happened. If we were winning conference titles during that time, I wonder how many would have responded.
I hope we never have to deal with it.
When the PSU story broke in 2011/2012 I was honestly surprised by the reaction of much of my fan base.
It was eye-opening to me: "WOW, what is going on here?!?!? Why can't some of my fellow fans just admit our leaders failed us, write them off and leave them in the dustpan of history while committing to doing better in the future? Why is tribalism such a huge thing as regards this story?!?!?!"
The last 7 years have changed my perspective though. PSU was unique in the details, but not unique in the reaction. Tribalism is a huge thing everywhere, and far beyond just sports.
I'm not excusing some of my fellow PSU fans, but in retrospect their reaction was more a symptom than the root cause. Why is society so much more tribal in everything these days?
I hope U-M doesn't have to deal with it either. Believe me, it's no fun.
I'm not excusing some of my fellow PSU fans, but in retrospect their reaction was more a symptom than the root cause. Why is society so much more tribal in everything these days?
Is it, or are people just more able to express it nonstop? I find that my personal interactions with people are no different than they ever were. It's online/social media where things seem different.
I think you're 95% right - personal interactions are mostly still positive for me and unchanged, but I do see some folk who are increasingly emboldened in their bullying, insults and "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude.
Online and Social is likely what emboldens them.
George Carlin had a quote back in the day, something to the effect - "I love individuals. I hate groups of people with a common purpose."
Yes, the anonymity can be a blessing and a curse. Just look at the board here -- most people wouldn't react in person the same way they do in this forum. And we're (mostly!) all on the same side!
There is an element, too, of getting past the news cycle and moving on. I think lots of people were frustrated in the PSU situation that penalties were reversed. But this happens in many other circumstances also.
Regardless, your comments on tribalism are spot on and part of what I was thinking about with respect to the original topic.
Interesting choice of words with tribalism as I would have referred to them as a cult. Went to PSU for a huge travel volleyball tournament two years ago memorial weekend. The first thing handed to us upon arrival was a sheet on reporting suspected child abuse and I chuckled a little. The person handing the packet out got snippy and asked what I was laughing about and I responded, a little late for this isn't it. The town of State College has given permission for a life size statue of Paterno to be put up in town. Paterno continued to allow Sandusky to bring little boys to football practice even after he was no longer on staff.
There is just something about Big 10 universities with the word "State" in them. Don't get me wrong, every university has issues, but the size of the problems and the way have been handled at these three have been atrocious.
(1) "Tribalism" vs. "Cult." Use whatever term you want. The latter is certainly a more inflammatory term, I'll give you that.
(2) And what good did your chuckling serve? Honestly, I would have been annoyed with you too. The person handing the packet out 99% likely didn't have anything to do w/ the crimes. He/she is just doing her job, and at least there is some proactiveness being shown about reducing unreported child abuse going forward. But you went for the backwards-looking joke to try to shame him or her. Fair enough.
(3) There are no current plans for either Penn State or the town of State college to put up a Joe Paterno statue. I'll give you 100:1 odds that it NEVER happens. I mean, it's been 7 years now and it still hasn't happened.
(yes, I know about that 2-minute tribute to JoePa at the Temple game in 2016. I said then and I still think now: it was a one-off, a slight bone thrown to the loudmouth "Paterno Loyalists" to try to get them to shut up a bit, and in retrospect a mistake).
I would exercise my grad transfer and go to CMU, like lots of others have.
I'm sure you're already aware, but the moral implications of 1) skirting the rules of amatuerism to sign a bunch of blue chippers, and 2) systematically enabling and covering up mass sexual assault for years at the institutional level, are not quite the same. This is like being asked if you'd help your brother bury a body, and replying that you've already helped him embellish his resume.
This example is not at all lost on me. It is part of why I made the distinction about sexual abuse vs. other improprieties.
In my case, I didn't like what happened, but I rationalized it as "everyone else was doing it and if it wasn't for the Mateen Cleeves SUV rollover, it would have never been exposed" which, in retrospect, doesn't feel great. But I do think there are degrees of wrong. And this was less wrong than covering up sexual abuse of children.
Maybe this is rationalization, but to me a key distinction is that the money wasn’t given to get them to play at Michigan. It was as you said do that Ed Martin coukd be close to them when they became pros.
Fire everyone starting with a few MGoPosters
I nominate me.
Great reference.
Burn a couch for every 100 scandals. What? Someone already has dibs on that one in state for their school? Shit. I'll just SMH then.
We've never had a massive scandal involving a systemic breakdown of leadership on the level of Nassar at MSU or Sandusky at PSU, but let's not pretend like we haven't had our share of incidents. Remember Brandon Gibbons? To be honest, I can't confidently say that situation was adequately redressed. The alleged rape occurred in November 2009, and yet Gibbons remained a member of the team in good standing until late in the 2013 season. He wasn't kicked out of school until January 2014. Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke were fired because they lost too many games, not because of Gibbons. If I was a parent of the young lady who Gibbons allegedly raped, I might have a few things to say about how the University and the AD handled that situation.
You should really look into why Gibbons remained enrolled and wasn’t kicked out until much later.
If its so clear and obvious it seems like you could just tell him.
It is clear and obvious. If he really cares he can research himself.