What Bagmen? Michigan MBB 2020 Recruiting Class Ranked #4
The narrative this year has been that Michigan will never win anything of note because we are too principled or something. But those principles haven't prevented us from having the #4 recruiting class in the country in men's basketball for the Class of 2020, behind only Kentucky, Duke, and UNC.
To me, the lesson is: stop making excuses. It is possible to have Michigan's academic standards, and Michigan's follow-the-rules principles, and still win—both on the recruiting trail and on the field or court.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:26 AM ^
Juwan is a monster recruiter. Our basketball program is in a great spot right now.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:30 AM ^
The difference between Beilein and Howard? All the top recruits listed Michigan as their second choice. Now, many of them are making us their first.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:12 AM ^
I think it's more than just that. JB had a policy of not pursuing 1-and-dones right? JH also can point to running an NBA system, which JB couldn't. I'm sure there are others but to just say he's a better closer is to gloss over some nuance.
January 2nd, 2020 at 11:27 AM ^
"JB had a policy of not pursuing 1-and-dones right?"
Wrong. Not sure why this gets said so much. Heavily recruited guys like TJ Leaf, Jaylen Brown, Jaren Jackson, Mo Bamba, and Devin Booker while very much kicking the tires on others (not necessarily offering because of the visit thing) like Moses Brown, RJ Barrett, Miles Bridges, and Jamal Murray.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:34 AM ^
Howard still has that new coach shine.
Remember, the 2017 football recruiting class was ranked 5th in the country and had 21 4/5 star players.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:30 AM ^
This ..... Exactly this.....
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:52 AM ^
Clearly there is a group of you who either do not know or are not paying attention. Juwan is more than just another pretty face. Sure, he is still the shiney new "toy" but all indications are that not only can he coach but he also has a basket full of intangibles-that is running over.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:04 AM ^
So it sounds like maybe we need a FB coach like Howard???
Harbaugh and Howard are similar in many ways: Had long careers in the league, coached at high levels in the league, and know lots of people. The difference seems to be that Howard has lots of personal charisma, and can relate to players on a personal basis due to his background, Harbaugh not so much, which is important in recruiting.
January 2nd, 2020 at 1:26 PM ^
January 2nd, 2020 at 5:53 PM ^
Michigan Is recruiting from the same division as MSU - not Duke or Kentucky, but they recruit pretty darn well, and have taken a lot of the Michigan/Ohio/Indiana players we’ve wanted.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
Literally everyone would have said this about Jim Harbaugh post 2016.
January 2nd, 2020 at 2:34 PM ^
Replace "Howard" with "Harbaugh" and everything you said was repeated in 2016.
I think Juwan is going to be great at UM. But getting a bunch of guys he may have had some personal connection to via the AAC circuit in the DMV area isn't necessarily something one can rely on going forward.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:46 AM ^
I really don't think it's comparable. Highly-ranked basketball recruiting classes have such a bigger immediate impact than football recruiting classes.
January 2nd, 2020 at 2:41 PM ^
This. A recruiting class in basketball is significantly more influential than a football class simply because of the numbers. Pick up Josh Christopher (obviously unlikely) and we will have recruited an entire starting 5 of our most highly-ranked recruits.
I also think you can't compare the impact of a head coach in football and basketball because of the platoon systems and multiple coaches in football.
Juwan's impact is going to be so much more influential than Jim's because of how the roles are structured, too. Juwan is front-and-center as the main guy for these kids; usually in football we saw mattison, partridge, and brown being the primary recruiters for kids. Juwan is also freaking dunking in practice!!! I am so excited about his tenure here.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:35 AM ^
Maybe he is using bagmen. If so our football team needs to get it’s head out it’s ass and do the same. Worst case scenario if you get caught:
1) wait a week before Rutgers and self report as a loan that was immediately paid back.
2) be commended by the media for “self-reporting and honesty”
3)???????
4)profit
Maybe he’s just that good of a recruiter. Idk but find a way to win
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:51 AM ^
3) Cycle PEDs out of your body and recuperate from an undisclosed injury while playing half-speed.
(Fixed)
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:08 AM ^
That's page 12 of the Sparty S&C manual
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:20 AM ^
Unfortunately, what's good for the goose ain't for this gander. Because Michigan has a relatively good track record of compliance, it's one of those schools the NCAA uses as a whipping boy to look like they give a rat's ass about their own rules. FFS Harbaugh toured the country with a bunch of football camps in compliance with NCAA regs and the SEC freaked out so badly they convened to figure out how to stop this menace. This was after Stretchgate. Hell, I even remember after the '97 championship, the NCAA went over Michigan with a fine-toothed comb for any whiff of funny business with a thoroughness they'd never given an Alabama or Florida State. Turns out the only thing they found was an agent inappropriately contacted Marcus Ray and that still got him suspended for half a season.
That's the way it is. Michigan's last go-round at using bagmen resulted in sanctions comparable to what PSU got for enabling a pedophile on its campus. Ohio State avoids the same scrutiny by being one of NCAA's darlings. They don't merely recruit well; they've done a really good job of making friends in the right places.
I'm not a fan of joining the race to the bottom, but it's barely even feasible at this stage. Michigan first needs to spend a few years buttering up the folks in charge, but those guys hate Harbaugh and are in bed with OSU.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:57 AM ^
Well-stated sir. The current rules are mind-numbingly shewed in favor of a select few. And how this persists and flies under the radar declares all that needs to be said here.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:14 AM ^
Umm what? Michigan’s last go around with bagmen ended up with SELF-imposed sanctions that TO THIS DAY are still imposed bc this school refuses to acknowledge the Fab Five outside of a small plaque on the Crisler walkway.
Louisville meanwhile honored their 2013 team after it was busted for hookers and blow. It’s Michigan’s institutional arrogance, Tom Goss and anti-basketball prejudice that cratered the b-ball program, not the NCAA.
January 2nd, 2020 at 1:21 PM ^
The NCAA has gone hard after Alabama, maybe not recently, here's a good summary:
https://www.ledger-enquirer.com/sports/college/sec/university-of-alabama/article29055703.html
here are the highlights if you don't want to the read the whole thing:
August 1995: In its first-ever NCAA penalty for rules violations, Alabama is placed on probation for three years, banned from a bowl appearance, ordered to give up 26 scholarships over three years and forced to forfeit eight victories from 1993.
Feb. 2, 2002: Alabama football receives five years probation, including a two-year postseason ban, because of a recruiting scandal in which boosters were accused of paying money for prep players.
Now I agree the NCAA is pretty toothless, a lot of people thought they overstepped their bounds when they penalized PSU, so they're not going to do much. They looked into Miami, where the case was handed to them on a silver platter, and they still didn't do anything.
January 2nd, 2020 at 2:16 PM ^
all this tells me is that the NCAA got mad at alabama the year most of their 2020 recruits were born. that's a long time ago.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:40 AM ^
I have to be honest on the field yesterday and verse PSU and UW I didn't see a lot related to recruiting that held michigan back. Some, of course yesterday there were some freaks on the Bama side so don't get me wrong I'm not saying they are equal. At the end of the day it seems routine that at least in the non osu losses it's not related to recruiting at all.
OSU was stacked this year and nobody can deny there is a talent differential. Was that really the case last year? OSU was damn good but look at the players UM had.
Clemson, OSU, Bama, have better head to head talent but every other team it's even or UM has an advantage (and sometimes it's a big advantage).
This is why the whole bagmen shit is overplayed. Ok, let's say osu payed (paid?) chase and all these guys big bucks...cool...michigan could have beat psu, bama, and uw with the talent UM has currently has.
This team 100% has the talent it could be 10-3 to 11-2 right now. That wouldn't fix it but I think we'd all feel better if the 1-2 games a year UM loses that it shouldn't were turned into W's and that has NOTHING to do with bagmen.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:00 AM ^
From a recruiting standpoint, Wisconsin isn't anywhere near Michigan.
I think the most glaring issue with Michigan and recruiting is that they grab a lot of talented skill players and almost none (maybe none at all) have lived up to the hype.
DPJ was the #1 ranked WR in 2017. He could have gone anywhere in the country. He's been okay at Michigan, but hasn't come close to that level of play/production.
Michigan also had three other top 200 WRs in that class. You could probably say Nico Collins has outplayed his ranking (he was the 200th overall player in 2017).
In 5 years, who is the RB that Harbaugh has recruited that has turned into an NFL draft pick? Doesn't exist. Karan Higdon is the best thus far and he was someone who just edged over 1000 yards for the season.
TE? Nope.
Think of all the OSU guys on offense you see starting or contributing on a weekly basis in the NFL. How many Michigan guys are doing the same? Devin Funchess, who was recruited in 2012?
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:48 AM ^
UM would rather throw the ball to stone hands Ronie Bell than DPJ, then people rip DPJ for not producing. There's a reason Tarik Black left.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:02 AM ^
Sorry to be that guy, but it is paid and not payed. Payed means the past tense of sealing a wooden ship with pitch.
Most of my students write "payed 10 $" instead of "paid $10." It is starting to drive me nuts.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:13 AM ^
ha no problem for some reason I rather enjoy the grammar/spelling corrections
January 2nd, 2020 at 11:08 AM ^
so is it Kwity Pai?
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:52 AM ^
Remember we played Bama without Tua. I don't know if the game would've been as close if Bama had their starting QB.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:06 AM ^
The score would have been similar. If Michigan would have "schemed" to allow Jeudy single coverage on half a field I could be a successful QB.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:13 AM ^
What's disheartening is Bama's 2nd-stringer looked better than our 1st-stringer. Ugh.
January 2nd, 2020 at 3:02 PM ^
Everything is ALWAYS related to recruiting. Could Uofm have won 1 or 2 more games with this talent ? Of course. But if they had a few more 5 stars in the team, shortcomings like a bad game plan or lack of execution can be made up for with pure talent.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:46 AM ^
Plot twist - what if we stopped following the rules?
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:51 AM ^
Yeah, why do we assume Juwan hasn’t made the necessary changes to bring our recruiting strategy in line with other top (or close to top) programs?
Personally, I hope he has. Especially with some monumental rules changes just a year or two away.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:56 AM ^
The monumental rule changes would be exactly the reason not to make "necessary changes" right now. That change is on the way anyway. No need to force it.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:55 AM ^
I don't think a culture could turn that quickly. I mean, it would be obtuse to not at least understand in the back of ones mind that Juwan Howard at a minimum had a front row seat to how "the big boys recruit" in his playing days, but I also have no doubt that Manuel told Juwan in no uncertain terms that it took a long time for Michigan basketball to recover from that and squeaky clean is the only way to play it right now.
Does the possibility exist that we are a little bit more vulnerable to other avenues of keeping up with the Jones' in the future? Probably. But I don't think that is happening now. I think this is Howard just having a kick-ass first six months on the job and Michigan basketball being a very desirable product right now.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:58 AM ^
But why though? At least why, yet? Execution alone makes harbaughs win total go from 10, 10, 8, 10, 9 to at worst 10, 11, 9, 11, 10. That is worst case with a very real possibility (granted this would take some luck and exceptional coaching) of 11, 12, 10, 12, 11.
Literally execution alone does that and puts this team into elite category 1b right behind bama, clemson, osu without breaking any rules.
Why not get there first and then evaluate? Hell you do that you will be starting and finishing the year in the top 6-8 which will have a cascading impact on recruiting that will improve the team also without breaking rules.
Looked at the stacked ass team Michigan has had some of these years. They absolutely had the talent to go 11-1 at least 2-3 of Harbaughs 5 years.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:08 AM ^
Michigan was 2 plays away from being 12-0 in 2016. If Darboh makes the catch and gets the first down, we beat Iowa (or if Iowa's kicker misses the kick).
JT was short.
If either of those plays goes the other way, UM is 11-1 and probably wins the B1G and goes to the playoffs. If that happens, it totally changes the perception around the program.
If the punt doesn't happen against MSU in 2015, Michigan finishes 11-2.
In 2017, if Eddie McDoom doesn't drop the pass, we beat Sparty. If O'Korn can hit an open receiver, we beat OSU. That turns an 8-5 season to 10-3.
This year, if Ronnie Bell catches the TD, I think we beat PSU in OT with all the momentum.
Those are 6 critical losses that turned on a play or 2. I'm not sure those are necessarily coaching flaws but more execution flaws. Where UM used to makes these big plays with guys like Desmond, Woodson, Braylon, Manningham, we aren't making these plays anymore and that's a big part of the difference.
January 2nd, 2020 at 11:57 AM ^
Good teams make those plays, or they play so well that it isn't left up to one play (for example, a better-than-mediocre OL in 2016 would allow Michigan to gain first downs running the football in the fourth quarter against both Iowa and OSU and Michigan wins both of those games).
We also came really close to losing to Army this year and didn't beat Iowa by a whole lot.
January 2nd, 2020 at 1:36 PM ^
Exactly.
Wayyyy too many "ifs" and "buts" when looking back on the last 5 years. When was the last time we seriously asked ourselves why it is that other teams go out and make plays to win games while we constantly miss the tackle, drop the pass, throw the INT, etc.?
Our players simply don't make plays and it's a consistent problem that spans multiple OCs, DCs, players, QBs, and schemes. We have all the talent (on paper) to do so, therefore there's got to be some other reason for this trend. What is the problem? I honestly don't know, but considering that it constantly happens every year (to the point where actually making a play is more the exception than the rule), it would be intellectually dishonest to simply excuse it away by saying "just bad luck" or "it was a fluke!"...bad luck and flukes imply that the they rarely happen / aren't a regular occurrence...yet we consistently don't make plays when we need to.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:59 AM ^
Reminds me of Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle when they're crossing the street in the wee hours of the morning. Harold is pressing the button for the crosswalk when the street is dead and Kumar is telling him to just cross the street because there's no one around. As soon as Harold steps off the curb a cop cuts him off and is there to nail his ass. I feel like that sums up how it would go if Michigan tried to stop following the rules.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:06 AM ^
Not to mention the self ass beatings UM would give itself as punishment instead of telling the NCAA to fuck off with zero consequence like other schools do.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:23 AM ^
M did tell the NCAA to f-off, basically, when they first came sniffing around about Ed Martin. Then the FBI caught up to Martin with their subpoena power and then the NCAA was able to permanently beat MSC and the AD into submission.
I'm still waiting for the fallout over the Nike payments. And still waiting...
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:38 AM ^
Juwan doesn’t need to cheat... he’s a genuinely cool guy who is very relatable to these kids. He’s a fun coach, who is calm and collected on the sideline. Plus he is off to a great start. It isn’t hard to see why kids want to play for him.
January 2nd, 2020 at 9:51 AM ^
Juwan is doing a fantastic job. That shouldn't make anyone thinking he is breaking any rules other than some Beilein made for himself, like not offering anyone until they visited campus and took a full tour. It also shouldn't make anyone think he is closing in on Duke and Kentucky in recruiting.
Beilein wasn't just scrupulous about following the rules, he didn't particularly enjoy recruiting and didn't get as highly ranked classes as he could have for that reason. To be completely fair, Juwan's only guard in the class committed to Beilein. Juwan is a natural recruiter who seems to easily connect with recruits and their families.
Michigan's class is ranked #4, but they only have one recruit ranked in the top 30. There's a large gulf between Duke, Kentucky and everyone else. UNC still has three 5* commits. Michigan's only 5* is a bit of a special case. Isaiah Todd was widely thought to end up overseas and top programs mostly didn't feel comfortable giving him a spot in their class. Kansas did, they've struggled to recruit with the NCAA breathing down their neck.
January 2nd, 2020 at 12:51 PM ^
The 3 schools ranked ahead of us are long standing blue bloods with veteran hall of fame caliber coaches and 2+ years head start on recruiting the 2020 class. What Howard has done with this class (and he isn’t finished yet) is remarkable. If he can win on the court this year, I would not be surprised to see him recruit at the highest level.
January 2nd, 2020 at 1:47 PM ^
That would be great, but sorry, I don't see Juwan having a good year to be anywhere near enough to push his recruiting up to Duke and Kentucky levels. He doesn't have a single recruit Kentucky wanted, crazily that would still be true if Christopher signs.
They are on a completely different level in regards to atmosphere, benefits (shady or otherwise), history of the program, record of putting people into the NBA, etc.
Fortunately, college basketball is not like football. Getting the top recruits gives you the most talent, but not necessarily the best teams. Good, 2nd 3rd and 4th year players can contribute more than a lot of the one and dones. Recruiting at a high level and building a strong roster has a decent chance vs recruiting at the highest level.
January 2nd, 2020 at 8:59 AM ^
It's similar to Harbaugh's first recruiting efforts. I remember the term "Harbaugh effect" being thrown around frequently whenever UM landed a commitment or a recruit stated interest.
This "effect" doesn't last long though. If Juwan can produce a good year this year, I see no reason for Bball recruiting to slow down and this program could take off rapidly.
January 2nd, 2020 at 10:18 AM ^
You may have a point-if so, it's a very minor one. The "Juwan effect" is more deeply seated than the "Harbaugh effect". Juwan's personality holds a universal liking-he has "IT". And if he has not already proven that he can put a staff together and coach a ton-that's on "you".
It would be interesting to see where the 2020 class would be it he had a full(er) recruiting year...will certainly be interesting to see what happens with the 2021 class.
January 2nd, 2020 at 11:56 AM ^
Yes. The sheer number and variety of NBA coaches, players and front office guys who seem to respect and like Howard as a person and a coach point that he's the real deal.