Try to win a shoot out or drag the game into the mud?

Submitted by TK on November 22nd, 2021 at 11:56 AM

I think most people are going to want Michigan to go for broke on offense and take chances on big plays. Problem I see is that OSU will want this game to be a track meet. Would it be better for us to make this game a slog by bleeding the clock on offense and shortening the amount of possessions? I know it’s easier said than done but I feel like our only chance is to control the game on the ground and win time of possession significantly. On defense, make them eat up clock by not giving up the home run ball and hope they make mistakes and kick FGs. And keep Moody off the field unless it’s fourth and goal from the 20. Field goals won’t beat this team. I think we can only win if we have a reverse of the MSU game where we win by scoring all TDs and OSU kicks a bunch of field goals. 

MgofanNC

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:23 PM ^

I feel pretty comfortable saying that, OSU isn't punting more than twice in this game regardless of the number of possessions. Slow or fast I don't think matters. We have to force turnovers, FGs, and most importantly score TDs. 

Watching From Afar

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:23 PM ^

OSU is going to score points on, guessing 75% of their possessions. If OSU gets 12 possessions or something like that, they're getting close to breaking 50.

Michigan is not putting up 50. That doesn't mean run the ball for 3 yards every single down and don't take shots. It means don't burn downs that put you behind the chains and go 3 and out multiple times. MSU had 3 straight 3 and outs and it was over (it was over before then too). Maintain possession, take the easy yards when you can and don't put your defense in bad situations.

dragonchild

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:25 PM ^

The clock is by far the least relevant part of the equation.  What people think of as "clock" is more a matter of the defense playing for yards or possessions. 

Playing for yards involves making the opponent grind for them, execute down the field, and make a high volume of plays.  When it works, most plays will be 1-10 yards.  This inherently takes a long time, so people talk of "bleeding the clock".  It's not about the clock.  It's about minimizing variance.

The opposite approach is to go "to hell with field position" and play a high-risk, high-reward game. Blitz from everywhere, try to confuse, go for broke.  When you win, you'll kill the drive entirely.  When you lose, you'll get pantsed.  You tend to get more TFLs and turnovers, but also more 50-yard TDs because you're unsound.  This is a fast-paced approach so the result is a shootout, but the real goal is to increase variance, to force and then capitalize off mistakes.

OSU's passing attack can execute all day and probably can't be contained anyway.  You could force them into ten straight plays of 3-4 yards, gas your starters, and then they'll blow up all that effort with a single big play.  So in a vacuum I'd go with the latter -- gamble and get off the field quickly.  You can run whatever kind of offense you want when you have the ball.

The problem with gambling is that football is never a vacuum, so it's a great way for a coach to lose his job just with crummy luck.  Sure, win a few dice rolls and you score a monumental upset.  But if your gambles don't pay off, they could be the right call and you still lose by 35 and everyone here will be howling.  It's not just a matter of score; it'll look ugly.  Put it this way:  we got a sack against Maryland by blitzing Gray.  Now, Gray won't be able to keep up with Olave or Wilson or whoever, so if you're MacDonald going up against OSU, you can see Gray get burned by three yards every damn down or occasionally take a chance and maybe get a sack -- OR Stroud might throw over that to an Olave who's now open by twenty yards.  In tactical terms, it makes no difference whatsoever if he's open by three or twenty, burned is burned, so it make sense to gamble and try to kill the drive.  But fans -- stupid, entitled, unhinged, enraged, lunatics -- will see Olave open by twenty yards and immediately start a twitstorm to burn the whole house down all over again, no matter how many words Seth and Ian spend to explain why anything made sense.  This is why coaches turtle and play to lose.

Unfortunately, not only is Harbaugh snakebit, OSU is the luckiest program in the country.  So I don't know what you do here, because there's no way the #FireHarbaugh crowd would even understand, let alone forgive, gambling for the win and losing a blowout.

dragonchild

November 22nd, 2021 at 3:14 PM ^

Right.  Well to expand on that, there are supposedly three ways to increase variance:  aggressive defense, bleeding the play clock on offense, and offensive strategy.

On defense, being aggressive increases possessions, but you're also greatly increasing the odds something significant happens in fewer plays per drive.  Defenses can do this because they choose how to distribute their guys downfield.  Anyway, more possessions = more variance, although this is just a correlation, because defensive variance is really based on how you play each down.  Turnovers and TFLs and TDs remain huge deals whether you defend 50 plays or 90.

Bleeding the play clock mathematically reduces the number of plays per game.  That definitely increases variance, but that's really a between-plays strategy so there's not much to discuss beyond sure, you can do that.  The tricky thing is, you need to maintain possession to do this, which brings us to offensive strategy and this thought:

If teams get more possessions, each play has less and less relevance and the more talented team wins out.

I'm sure you've read that somewhere so don't take this personally, but this is horsecrap.  On defense, sure, give up a first down and in most cases you've still got green grass behind you.  However, on offense, possessions don't dilute the risk of individual plays.  The reason is you still need first downs to stay on the field, so the impact of each of your plays stays the same to you.  It just doesn't feel that way because punts are more boring than interceptions and TDs, but punts are still turnovers, especially in the modern game when field position is less relevant.  It's inaccurate to say that the individual plays in a 15-play, 60-yard drive are, in whole or part, less risky than a 50-yard pass attempt because every play still has to keep the drive alive.  The only real way to diminish the importance of your next offensive playcall is to sit on a big lead, but how do you get to that point?

I mean, we've all too often seen Michigan try to "bleed the clock" with inside runs and eat a parade of three-and-outs instead, constantly giving the ball back.  A lot of people were sweating out the Rutgers game for what was supposed to be a "low-risk" strategy, and that was hardly the first time.  So, I'm challenging CW here and saying you really can't control variance through offensive strategy.  A bunch of quick strikes that go awry give the ball back, but you can wind up doing the exact same thing running into stacked boxes.  In the end, you can't control variance if you can't move the ball, but if you can do that, why not just. . . score?  Opting otherwise is just punching yourself in the face.

That in mind, for the OSU game, I'm with other folks in saying, just do whatever the heck it takes to move the ball and don't worry about how much time it takes.

Tex_Ind_Blue

November 22nd, 2021 at 4:30 PM ^

Agree. 

While I was looking at the individual plays as part of a continuum, I discounted the fact that they need to produce first downs (or a score) every three tries or less. Once that condition is placed, then the paradigm changes. 

Thank you for taking the time to explain, discuss and over all increase my knowledge :D

dragonchild

November 22nd, 2021 at 3:26 PM ^

Nice, but as a matter of debate I'm obligated to disagree.  Don Brown's aggression is more about pressure.  Basically, rather than "read and react" or "bend don't break" defenses that try to figure out what the offense is doing and limit it, he prefers an attacking defense (at least in spirit) where the corners press the receivers, the linebackers blitz, and the D-line stunts & slants.  Not that his defenses were irresponsible, but if you can get them to worry about what you're doing, you have more freedom to dictate the flow of the game.  For example, if you can jam their receivers at the line, who cares what the routes are?

I remember an interview early in his Michigan tenure when a reporter asked him about his reputation for recklessness and he took serious issue with it.  His defenses aren't about gambling; he'd just rather remain on the attack than react to the offense.  Frankly, MacDonald is more of a risk-taker than Brown ever was.  He'll send DEs into coverage and blitz from any position.

buckeyejonross

November 22nd, 2021 at 3:46 PM ^

i think i'd rather michigan try to go for broke. osu has had some difficulty turning yards into tds.

we had 500 yards against nebraska, but only 26 points, because we settled for 4 fgs and threw two interceptions in nebraska territory. we had 600 (!) yards against oregon, but only 28 points, because we failed on 4th down three different times in oregon territory, ended the half running out of time at the oregon 18, and threw an interception in oregon territory. we had 466 yards against penn state, but only 26 offensive points because, again, we settled for 4 red zone fgs and a had red zone turnover on downs.

that's how you stop ohio state. you get to the red zone, even the numbers up, rely on the fact that qb run isn't a part of the offense, and hope for a rz stop.

if you're giving up 40 yard touchdowns trying to force turnovers, that plays into osu's hands, imo. 

dragonchild

November 22nd, 2021 at 4:20 PM ^

that's how you stop ohio state. you get to the red zone, even the numbers up, rely on the fact that qb run isn't a part of the offense, and hope for a rz stop.

if you're giving up 40 yard touchdowns trying to force turnovers, that plays into osu's hands, imo.

The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.  You can be aggressive in a two-high, it just means you'll be giving up a lot of first downs.

The problem is that Michigan doesn't have the talent at DT to win at the LoS, nor at corner to contain the pass without safety help.  So, they're already at a tremendous disadvantage.  OSU can target the DTs with duo and the solution to that isn't to stack the box or their passing attack will take the top off.  If Michigan plays a sound, matchup-based defense OSU will either just march down the field like they have every damn game the last few seasons, or score 100 points because it'll be like the MSU game but without mercy.  It's the luxury of an offense with both speed and power, facing a defense with DTs that lack power and corners that lack speed.

To address your argument, to that end I'm not necessarily advocating that Michigan go cover zero every down.  Instead I'd play a little unsound and move pieces around, keep OSU's offense guessing.  As a result there will be holes between the trenches and the safeties, so this would be the sort of strategy where they'd convert a maddening number of third-and-longs.  But I'd rather take that risk than watch Michigan die another death march.  We can't win trying to cover those WRs and stop the run man-for-gap.  Don't dogfight OSU's talent, just keep them out of the end zone.  Then, once in the red zone, the safeties will be much closer to the LoS.

uvadula

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:27 PM ^

Can michigan really plan to make it one or the other? If its a shootout, that means M's offense is driving down the field, most likely because the run game is working, which means higher time of possession and fewer OSU possessions. 

If its a rock fight, that means Michigan isnt running well enough, and I'd 100% bet on OSU to get enough explosive plays to win.

1VaBlue1

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:28 PM ^

Neither.  Not gonna win a track meet, and something slogged down in mud can go either way too easily.

Here's an idea - run the offense you've spent an entire season morphing into the monster that just put 59 on the board at another P5 opponent's field.  You want to stop the run game?  Fine, we'll throw it to the TE.  Take him away?  Okay, we'll throw it to the RB.  Keep that safety tight?  No problem - our WRs are just as fast as OSU's.

There are plays to be had against OSU's defense.  Just need to run the offense we've seen getting better and better in each game.

If PSU had a decent offense, they probably would have won their game.  Michigan's defense is just as good as PSU's, and its offense is leagues better...

I'm saying there's a chance.

R. J. MacReady

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:28 PM ^

We are due …. But we are also asking for the stars and planets to align.  You need a perfect game from Michigan, which is asking a lot.  
 

OSU will score between 40-55 points.  We need to match which is asking for the moon.  Possible.  Not probable.   

FlexUM

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:28 PM ^

Maybe this is the more precise answer...

 

Use creativity in the offense to open up opportunities to keep the chains moving but always capitalize on big play opportunities. 

On defense...slow the game down! Make them take another snap no matter what. 

chunkums

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:31 PM ^

Drag It out. They play two-deep with their safeties and we have an efficient QB who doesn't turn the ball over, great backs, and a strong OL. If we can be efficient and can hit their freshman QB enough to cause some mistakes, I think we can pull the upset. The key is making the errors count. We're the underdogs, so variance is our friend IMO.

GRBluefan

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:33 PM ^

Not sure what the style will be, but the only(?) shot we have at winning is if we realize that we (1) can't settle for FG and that we (2) need to have explosive plays.  We can't rely on picking up 5 3rd downs every drive and have a good chance to win this game...the margin for error is too slim.  Open up the playbook, call passing routes that go beyond the sticks, use some play action.  Don't just run it up the gut on 1st and 2nd down!  

Tex_Ind_Blue

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:38 PM ^

The answer is somewhere in the middle. Score when the opportunity is there. Stop the opponent on third downs (and get them to third downs as much as possible). Hope and pray are the last things and only be done by the fans. I am sure the coaches have a great game plan. Hopefully, the players can execute it and then some. 

Go Blue!

JoeFink

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^

I'm amazed by how little confidence our fans have against the Buckeyes  this coming Saturday,  Yes, I know that they've had our number the past several years, but Vegas has this as a 7 point game.  I believe that this is Harbaugh's best team, we're playing in the Big House, and the Bucknuts haven't faced a pass rush like ours all season.  Hell, Oregon beat them Turds, in Columbus, without their stud pass-rusher.  We do NOT have to play a perfect game to win, IMHO.  Just win the turnover battle, and I like our chances.

TeslaRedVictorBlue

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:41 PM ^

Why is this a question? Hit stroud, keep the ball, create turnovers, create doubt and try to win the posession game 40-20... and we still might lose by 20. 

Also, unfortunately, we may not have much of a choice since osu is trying to win too. if we run 3 and outs, the game is over before it starts.

I'm hoping for a 0-0 score after 1Q - that tells me 1. we can at least contain the basics of what they do and 2. we dont need to score to keep them off the field out of terror.

They bleed just like we do, and sweat just like we do. They went through two-a-days. We went through two-a-days in 110 degree heat. I want you to hit everything that move!

Mgopioneer

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:44 PM ^

Nebraska's game plan without the Nebraska breakdowns. They held them to FGS and got turnovers. They found a ton of success down the middle of the field. TE and slot receiver needs to be heavily involved.. 

The Homie J

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:52 PM ^

Erick All needs to be our MVP on Saturday.  And Haskins/Corum/Edwards need to be thrown screen passes and crossing routes over the middle.  Ohio State's weakness is linebackers and the short middle of their defense.  If you're patient and you take what the defense gives you (and you don't set downs on fire with obvious runs for 1 yard), you can move up and down the field like Oregon did.  And that ties into chewing up clock and keeping their offense off the field.

M-Dog

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:45 PM ^

Teams have shown conclusively that they can stop our running game if they choose to do it.

So, what you can not do is the the classic Big Ten Bo "body-blows-to-soften-them-up-for-the-fourth-quarter" thing against Ohio State.  Ohio State is not Washington or Wisconsin or Penn State.  They will not cooperate by only scoring 10 points while we dork around for 3 quarters running into stacked boxes, punting, and playing defense.

What Oregon did is instructional.  They possessed the ball with a diversified multi-faceted offense that took what the defense gave them and moved methodically down the field.  And then they scored points.

Punts are poison against Ohio State.  You punt twice in a row and the game is over.

Ohio State has only one (relative) weakness, and that is pass defense.  That is where we will need to attack.  We will need to pass to set up the run, not the other way around. 

If that does not win time of possession, so be it.  If we score too quickly . . . at least we score.    

 

RobM_24

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:55 PM ^

Punts are turnovers, and FGs are half turnovers. Same as a CFP game. Not a lot of 13-7 games once you get there. If your plan isn't to try to avoid 3rd downs and score every possession, then your plan is dumb. "Physicality" "out-execute" "wear down" "body blows" and so on, are all terms that result in losses 14 out of 15 times. The only things that can make those plans effective are things you can't control -- weather and OSU commiting unforced turnovers. But as we saw with MSU, even starting +2 in turnover margin is basically negated if you're getting FGs instead of TDs. 

Ghost of Fritz…

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:49 PM ^

"If your plan isn't to try to avoid 3rd downs and score every possession, then your plan is dumb. "Physicality" "out-execute" "wear down" "body blows" and so on, are all terms that result in losses 14 out of 15 times."

Totally agree. 

But...Harbaugh has been really consistent for 7 years now on how he thinks of winning football.   I can't recall Harbaugh using a game plan that even takes a side glance at 'call plays so that you face minimal 3rd downs.'    Maybe Saturday will be the first time....

Nickel

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:50 PM ^

Slog it out, limited possessions, hope for a few high-variance events to all go our way.

That said, like most have mentioned I don't see running into that OSU line all day as a route to success so Michigan is going to have some crazy 3rd down conversion rate to pull off that limited possession game plan.

RobM_24

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^

How do you slog it out if we can't effectively run up the middle? That's my problem with the "slow it down" method. Why not just get points and try to slow it down on the other end? Bend-don't-break defense. Even teams with 5*s everywhere have to resort to that tactic in the CFP (Bama, Clemson, etc).

 

m_go_T

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:53 PM ^

I think that the rock fight is the way to go.  Rope-a-dope style.  Play soft coverage and keep all their passing plays in front of you.  As the field gets shorter and into the red zone, hope they make mistakes/don't convert.  On offense, just do what you've been doing but let out the wrinkles (e.g., Donovan Edwards in the backfield with Haskins or Corum), but generally dink and dunk until you get to field goal range and then just try to score from outside the 15 yard line.  I think where we bog down is once we get into 12-5 yd line. 

It won't be easy, but there is no way we win a track meet.  Keep it close and hope that the home field advantage is enough to push you over the top.  

JamieH

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:55 PM ^

Good God man why would we try to have a shootout with OSU?

Our team does not do shootouts.  We need to possess the ball, finish our drives, and keep OSU's offense off the field as much as possible.

MGlobules

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:56 PM ^

I imagine that the coaches go in with a couple of alternative plans--one for the early going, a second and third basic plans for getting something of a lead, remaining in a dogfight, or falling behind. They're covering their bases. 

MDot

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:56 PM ^

It needs to be a balanced attack. Unpredictable, but not reckless. No team in the B1G has the talent to beat OSU in a shootout, it would be incompetence in a coaching staff to think so. I thought MSU shot itself in the foot early by throwing it too much, creating 3 & outs. They needed to slow the game down, but they felt the pressure & reacted poorly. OSU is a quick strike offense, so you have to find ways to get them out of rhythm. Once they start rolling, it can get bad unless you have Bama/UGA/etc type talent. 

M-Dog

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:56 PM ^

The cynical answer is whatever gets us more than the 7 points that Sparty scored, and does not give up the 56 points that Sparty gave up, so we go to the Rose Bowl over them.

That we can do.

 

dlc_slc

November 22nd, 2021 at 12:59 PM ^

I say Michigan should play ball control to start. 

The benefit of controlling the clock in this game is what this would do to OSUs defense by the end of the game. The more their defense is on the field the easier it will be to move the ball at the end of the game because they will be tired. If OSU plays up tempo going for quick strikes, then their defense will not have time to rest. Conversely, the more rested our defense, the greater the chance that we will be able to make some crucial stops.

Of course, how we play will be determined in part by how close the game is. Get behind early and then it just becomes a game of catch up and ball control becomes less feasible.

Ghost of Fritz…

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:42 PM ^

You sound like a Harbaugh burner account!

Honestly, I just do not think that works against OSU.  Rather than have 'control the clock' be the centerpiece of the offensive game plan, 'score as much as possible should be the centerpiece.

That goes against Harbaugh's way of thinking about football...but it is the only chance Michigan has to keep pace with OSU. 

It won't help Michigan to have OSU's D tired in the 4th if Michigan is losing by three scores...   One of the keys for Michigan is to never fall behind (or at worse never fall behind by more than 7).

All year Michigan has dominated first halfs, but not really distanced themselves on the scoreboard until the 3rd or 4th quarters.   OSU is the opposite.  They have effectively ended most of their games by the middle of the 2nd quarter.   If Harbaugh does not rethink his approach, OSU will be up by two or three scores by halftime.

 

Greg McMurtry

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:03 PM ^

Michigan will have to score a lot of points to win. Donovan Edwards looked like a matchup problem vs Maryland and probably still is although not as much vs OSU. On D, Michigan needs to confuse Stroud into throwing INT’s like Nebraska did. I see turnovers as the only way to win.

aiglick

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:07 PM ^

Lots of passes to our stud RBs. Don’t constantly run into stacked boxes. Run some play action. Do a flea flicker at a key moment or whatever the counter is off the flea flicker. Maybe steal that play Purdue ran against MSU that was so beautiful. Basically be creative on offense while trying to move the chains (so limit the drops but if they happen don’t hang your head) and on defense slow them down as much as possible. Don’t let them score outside the red zone and once there be stout in the red zone.

Partial.Derivatives

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:22 PM ^

Michigan’s offense isn’t built for a shootout. The passing game has made strides the latter part of the schedule but the offense works methodically mostly. Create some turnovers, hit a few big plays then burn the clock out. 

A2Townie

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:30 PM ^

Only thing I want to add if we find something that works, it's ok to try that play again, and again if it keeps working. We have not seen Harbaugh exploit an edge vs a good team. 

OldSchoolWolverine

November 22nd, 2021 at 1:32 PM ^

What I cannot stand is to see players just blindly run to the football... this includes Hutchinson.  Need to play as a unit... need to play smart... not just be spazzed and rush QB... expect things you haven't seen, like Stroud running up middle.  There will be designed run plays that will crush us.. crush us, unless we play football with smarts.  Couldn't stand to see our DL under Brown just rush upfield... their first assignment is not to allow the QB to get by them, and then rush accordingly... I feel we are getting set up for it and pray that MacDonald is aware here.

There was one play recently vs I think it was Indiana... where there was a juggle hesitation and run and five players were running at the QB, mindlessly...not one of the five stayed on the wr who was down field maybe ten yards... like automatons.  We will get crushed if we don't play collectively and smart.