Top 5 & 10 CFB Coaches
So during the defense section of this weeks' podcast the crew discussed Harbaugh's deficiencies, stating that these would limit him from being a top 5 coach, but maybe he's a top 10 coach. Then it was mentioned that there are openings in the top 5 given Stoops and Mayer not currently coaching ("retired"). This got me thinking who are the top 5 coaches? Top 10? Saban is an obvious #1, Dabo is top 5, if not #2, then what? Has the shine worn off Tom Herman? Or can we consider him top 10? How quickly is Riley moving up into consideration? Chris Petersen? I guess I'll make a list to start discussion, but someone can likely do better (and am likely forgetting someone):
Top 5: Saban Sweeny J Fisher Petersen? Smart?
10: Herman Riley Harbaugh Kelly? Mullen or Malzahn
October 14th, 2019 at 10:01 AM ^
Saban
Dabo
Lincoln Riley
Chris Peterson
Cajun Hoke or Kirby Smart
October 14th, 2019 at 11:03 AM ^
Cajun Hoke is 47-36 as a head coach and has never had fewer than three losses in a full season. I know LSU looks good right now, but maybe pump the brakes a bit on that one.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:02 AM ^
Who actually sits around thinking about this shit ?
Who cares ?
October 14th, 2019 at 10:03 AM ^
Dumb.
Everyone’s got their own criteria (which of course no one will explain) and this will devolve into even more bitching and whining about the current season.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:03 AM ^
A top coach recognizes the punt as the most important play in football. B1G owns the market for top coaches
October 14th, 2019 at 10:40 AM ^
Soooooo, based on that logic, Smirk Dantonio is a Top Fake Coach?
October 14th, 2019 at 10:04 AM ^
What's with this human obsession to rank everything? Why is it compounded by the internet? Can't the op just sit in a dark room and think about this for a few days until he realizes it's a pointless mental exercise? Someone please help me understand.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:11 AM ^
I'd like to help you understand and started to rank my reasons. But upon reflection I realize it's a pointless mental exercise. So, now I don't know what to do.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:20 AM ^
Already one of my top 3 anti-ranking comments in this thread.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:24 AM ^
I love this blog and come here multiple times a day but could you point me to something here that isn't a pointless mental exercise?
October 14th, 2019 at 11:45 AM ^
Drinking threads.
October 14th, 2019 at 12:32 PM ^
Good point.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:20 AM ^
Gotta be Ryan Day at 1 and then after that what difference does it make?
October 14th, 2019 at 10:23 AM ^
day is the john cooper 2.0
October 14th, 2019 at 11:04 AM ^
That guy is coaching Michigan!
October 14th, 2019 at 11:14 AM ^
Hate your comment and hate even more that I can't retort : (
October 14th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Nah, he's a poor man's Cooper. Cooper was pretty good not in the game.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:27 AM ^
I know you jest, but his trajectory is indeed promising. Likely top 5 coach after a couple of years of data and accumulated wins.
Will be hard to Emulate Meyer’s top 3 recruiting classes every year, but the OSU football factory is fully built and he’ll have more than enough talent to win in the B1G with top 5 recruiting classes.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:21 AM ^
Ryan Day in a year or 2 will be top 5. Urban’s apprentice is smart, open to new ideas, and poaches proven position coaches and coordinators from other programs.
Yes, he was handed a Ferrari and basically told, don’t crash this, but they look more competent on both sides of the ball this year than at anytime over Meyer’s last couple years.
1. Saban
2. Dabo
3. Riley
4. Kirby Smart
5. Chryst
6. Mullen
7. Brian Kelly
8. Jimbo Fisher
9. Peterson
10. Cajun Hoke
Next 5 in no order...
Harbaugh, Day, Pat Fitzgerald, Herman, Ferentz
Edit* - I completely forgot Gus Malzahn, he falls in this next group after the top 10 as well, imo.
Again, Day will be top 5-10 in the near future.
And just to throw it in for a bit of schadenfreuden, biggest drop over the past 5 years....Mork (not a top 25 coach anymore)
October 14th, 2019 at 10:27 AM ^
GTFO - Paul Chryst is a top 5 coach... really?
Coming into this year, most Wiscy fans would have been happy to see him move on, but now he's a genius? Not buying it
October 14th, 2019 at 10:32 AM ^
Exactly. This whole thing is hilarious. If you went to the fan bases of all these coaches from 4-10 you would get a LOL. Granted Michigan fans hate themselves the most but.
Have you checked in on genius Peterson this year?
Kirby? Hello Gamecocks.
Chryst was a bum that everyone laughed at last year.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:38 AM ^
1 game does not a career make. Kirby has been elite at Georgia. A hair away from the national title and always in the conversation. This is why I purposefully left Day out, despite how good OSU has looked this far....need a few years of data.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:34 AM ^
For every coach you need to correct for program history, talent and expectations. Chryst is 2-2 against our savior Harbaugh.
The only team they can’t seem to get past for a B1G title is, wait for it, OSU - twice in the B1G championship.
So his results are essentially Michigan, but with 3* recruits and without all the Harbaugh hype and noise. Give the man top 5 talent at an institution that can recruit at that level historically, and he’d be outperforming many of the “elite” coaches.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:41 AM ^
Seconded. People listing Paul Chryst as a Top 5 coach is the definition of recency bias. Chryst is a fine coach, but he's also the same guy who came into Ann Arbor last season with all the expectations in the world and shit the bed with a horrible game plan.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:15 AM ^
Speaking of pumping the brakes.
Ohio State has played nobody yet this season. Their best win may in fact be FAU or Cincy.
FAU is 4-2. Cincy is 5-1 in the AAC. Indiana is 4-2 and one of the worst teams in the Big 10. Miami (NTM) is 2-4 and one of the worst teams in the MAC. Nebraska is 4-3 and has been obliterated by Minnesota and was actually in a ballgame against South Alabama and barely beat Illinois. MSU is awful this year.
Their first real game is week 8 against Wisconsin. PSU should have lost to Iowa, and Michigan is atrocious this year. Day's team will play two teams with a pulse near their level this year - Wiscy and PSU.
October 14th, 2019 at 5:03 PM ^
Wisconsin is not near Ohio State's level. Their offensive line cannot dominate OSU's DL, and they have nothing to turn to after that-- even if Coan plays well, they don't have the scheme or WRs to score a bunch of points when they're not consistently winning at the line of scrimmage. On defense, they will give up points in bunches to any team that has elite skill position players and a scheme that gets them the ball in space; they cannot keep a team like Oklahoma or Alabama or Ohio State from scoring.
Wisconsin does really, really well with the talent they have available, but they are not in the same conversation as OSU.
October 15th, 2019 at 10:35 AM ^
Who said anything about that? Personally I said that they haven't played anyone with a pulse yet and people are crowning Day a few years prematurely. They want to say Day is a top 5 coach, but barely lump Riley in that group now? How does that make sense? He's coached a handful of games, almost none against real competition.
October 14th, 2019 at 3:26 PM ^
I’d take Paul Chryst over Harbaugh. Give that man Michigan level talent and he’d do 10x more with it than Harbaugh has.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:22 AM ^
I was the #1 individual in my apartment this morning. Its good to be at the top of the rankings.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
Just wait until you have a spouse and kids. You'll drop like Shea Patterson's draft stock.
:-(
October 14th, 2019 at 1:15 PM ^
i had a spouse, twice. I also have two sons... they're on their own. All week while I'm in my apartment I'm #1. When I go home on the weekends, my better half is #1, the dog is #2 and I know my place.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:28 AM ^
I feel Chris Petersen is overrated. People think he's a coaching god since that Boise upset over Oklahoma. He's been kind of underwhelming at Washington. Did well with Sarkisian's players but has lost 3-4 games per year since (sound familiar?). Consider that USC, UCLA, Oregon, and even Stanford have been down the last few years.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:36 AM ^
Yeah, the shine is off Petersen a bit. He's good, as in probably Top 10-15, but I don't think he's elite, as in Top 5.
Brian Kelly is one I feel is a bit underrated. Honestly, I think he's in the Top 5. I know, he's unlikable. But ND is better than they were under their previous 3 coaches, in an environment where their structural advantages aren't as pronounced as they once were, and Kelly had an outstanding record prior to ND also.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:44 AM ^
Much as I hate to agree that Brian Kelly is an elite-level coach, but he's got Notre Dame operating at as high a level as can be expected in the current college climate. Part of this success can be attributed to Notre Dame dumbing down it's schedule with ACC snack cakes and USC being a tire fire, but he has them operating as a consistent 11 win team.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:46 AM ^
ND and UM as football institutions look a lot alike. Great academics, great history, national reputation, huge fan base, located in area with limited recruiting.
Oklahoma has the same attributes (sans academics).
October 14th, 2019 at 5:05 PM ^
Oklahoma's proximity to Texas gives them a much better recruiting base than either UM or ND.
October 14th, 2019 at 5:31 PM ^
Meh, on the Oklahoma - Texas recruiting argument. We have Ohio (home to Desmond and Woodson) and used to pull crazy talent out of that state - not just the leftovers of what OSU was passing on.
Oklahoma still gets plenty of elite players out of Texas, most with Texas offers as well.
Tressel shut the door on Ohio for us, MSU built their successful years under Mork with many of the OSU 3* rejects that we never offered (steroids, disrespekt, and shoulder chips helped in development), and our national recruiting has been all over the place since the RR years.
Carr and Moeller did really well in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and California.
RR brought in some talent from Florida for his new scheme, but completely ignored the defensive side of the ball and that's when our recruiting in Ohio and Pennsylvania really fell off a cliff.
Hoke helped rebuild a pipeline to Ohio, but not to the elite Woodson/Desmond types - they all go to OSU now.
And the Harbaugh name was supposed to allow us to recruit nationally at the Saban, Meyer, and current Dabo level....but we're more at the 5-15 range every year, instead of top 3 every year.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:49 AM ^
No idea where I’d rank Harbaugh but I have started to wonder if he has issues with talent evaluation when it comes to QBs and offensive staff which may limit him.
The tempo stuff they talked about on the podcast may change when they’ve had an OC who cares about it for more than season.
October 14th, 2019 at 10:52 AM ^
Definitely need to take into account where the coach is coaching in this discussion imo. For example, what Snyder did at KSU is almost as impressive as any other coaching careers. Same reason Dantoni gets so much credit.
The larger issue here, specifically for Michigan, is how the distribution of money has leveled the playing field. The value in being a "blue-blood" program has diminished (overall, not just UM). And given how important recruiting is I'm not sure Michigan has the same potential as those other schools given the lack of in-state talent.
All things considered I think Harbaugh has done a pretty good job overall, even though I do buy into this "changed persona" conspiracy.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:47 AM ^
I'd disagree...
Harbaugh's record is better than what the product on the field would indicate. Recent example would be ILL giving Michigan a run for its money in the second half. The amount of money that M spends on facilities and Harbaugh is outrageous compared to what ILL has; granted their facilities were just upgraded this off season.
Most would say that Harbaugh has been "unlucky" and the team has had a lot of bad mojo. I believe the exact opposite is true, since we can't hold onto the ball, can't put together a sustained drive, or even a coherent game plan. Iowa could/should have won, I'd say the same for ILL and Army... if they had a little more luck, they would have taken control in the 3rd quarter and stunned by fanbase.
October 14th, 2019 at 2:32 PM ^
Well I don't think you can really glean too much from one game. Even the best teams/programs have clunkers. He's had the program in the position to win the division, conference, and make it into the CFP the last game of the year twice. I recognize that's probably an overly optimistic take but that's pretty good.
I just don't believe all schools are created equally and before that used to benefit UM but these days that benefit has shifted.
October 14th, 2019 at 5:39 PM ^
2015 MSU punt 6 was incredibly unlucky. Fortunately, that sanctimonious prick Mork is self destructing and it's starting to look like his best days are behind him. Of course, he'll prepare his team for the UM game like it's the Super Bowl, as usual, but they have become a 1 game a season team. - Unfortunately for us, that game is UM
2016 OSU was a complete robbery and an officiating nightmare throughout. The JT spot was hardly the worst or most controversial call of the game. That was also an extremely unlucky, and shitty outcome, and the trajectory of the program may have been very different had we won that game, the B1G, and went to the playoff that year.
Since then, I have no argument to claim that we have been unlucky in games or screwed with injuries. The past 2.5 seasons are about poor coaching when the big games show up on the schedule. The QB issues and lack of development are completely on Harbaugh and his staff not identifying and developing the appropriate talent and implementing any consistent/coherent offensive scheme.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:02 AM ^
I would definitely not take Jimbo over Harbaugh.
I think it's Saban and Dabo then everyone else.
Lincoln Riley will probably be up there in a year or two if he keeps this thing going.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:06 AM ^
I go back and forth on Swinney. He seems to have identified, hired, and retained the perfect combination of coordinators, but he was basically a poor man's Jim Harbaugh in a crappy conference before his current OC joined him. Saban rolls no matter who is on his staff.
October 14th, 2019 at 5:42 PM ^
Dabo is unique...he and the program roll with Jesus and are unapologetic about it. They've built a program with cultish tendencies, and this works in team sports.
This would never fly, however, at UM - a much more liberal university where many would be made much more uncomfortable about mixing religion and sport.
Note: This was not meant to be political - just an observation of Dabo and some of what has been written about how he runs his program and how it probably would never fit an institution like UM.
October 14th, 2019 at 11:59 AM ^
Where does Paul Chryst fall on this list of elite coaches? Does he's kicked Harbaughs ass a couple times
October 14th, 2019 at 12:03 PM ^
I'm not sure how Harbaugh could be higher than between 15 and 20.
- recruits good to great players, but strategy leaves holes at important positions. Has not landed a QB we would consider as "a great Michigan QB".
- higher than average number of transfers, including players who would be starting the next year.
- failure to mandate that offense fit the players, rather than vice-versa.
- predictable game plans and difficulty with in-game adjustments
- failure to motivate team for most big games and most road games. No wins as underdog. Cannot beat OSU (reasonably understandable), not dominating MSU (not understandable).
- failure to seek out and land high-quality position coaches for offensive skill positions.
Given this list, I wonder if Harbaugh is even top-20.
October 14th, 2019 at 5:50 PM ^
I would have a hard time naming 20 coaches currently better than Harbaugh to run our program. That said, there is a HUGE drop off from the top 2 (Saban, Dabo) to the next group of 3-10. After that, the dropoff is very steep. So while Harbaugh is nowhere near the top 2, or even top 5 or so in my eyes, I think this steep dropoff makes his ranking seem as if it should be worse than it really is.
October 14th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^
I'm fine with taking a wait and see approach to Day, but recruiting (2020 and 2021) hasn't fallen off at all, and he's making in-game adjustments better than even Meyer did (see the Nebraska game) That said, I'll wait to see how matchups with Wisconsin, Penn State, and Michigan go because OSU hasn't faced much adversity yet.
October 14th, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
Can you rerank your list based on compensation? That would be interesting. Probably catapult harbaugh into top 3 coaches in the country? Better? I'd guess top 5 coach at least.