“The Social Dilemma” Doc on Netflix

Submitted by OfficerRabbit on November 3rd, 2020 at 10:05 PM

I’ve gone out of my way to avoid political talk, news, revelations, etc. the last few weeks... I’m just worn out. Instead of watching the news all night, I decided to watch the aforementioned Doc on Netflix tonight, and suddenly the division our country has experienced the last ten years makes much more sense, at least to me. I knew algorithms always had a place in social media, but no idea just how impactful and influential they were.

The line that stood out the most to me was an analogy with Wikipedia.. (paraphrasing), “Imagine 2.2 Billion people getting their very own Wikipedia articles, tailored to what they believe and want to click on”. In essence, everyone has their very own set of “facts” from FB, Twitter, IG, etc... no two of us are seeing the same thing.. and that’s by design.

Given the vitriol the last few months, I’m curious if anyone else who’s seen that doc had their eyes opened a little bit. Man, I hope we can find a way to stop dividing people.. and social media is highly effective in doing so.

AMazinBlue

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:15 PM ^

It was very enlightening and then Zuckerberg tells congress that the fix for everything is mor AI.  Just plain scary.  I'm so close to shutting down my FB account.  The censorship amongst FB, Twitter and YouTube is scary

MGoAragorn

November 4th, 2020 at 4:47 PM ^

My 27 year old son - a classic liberal who graduated from a top 5 college - came to this same conclusion. He's smart and very outgoing with tons of friends. He concluded that he can keep up with them in the absence of FB or Instagram. Bravo!

Sopwith

November 4th, 2020 at 8:17 AM ^

Shut it down. It's toxic. It's like quitting smoking except beyond just making yourself healthier and happier, it makes others around you healthier as well. Every link in the social media chain that can be broken is a net plus. I never started the habit and never will. 

At least hating Facebook is one thing opposite sides of the political chasm can agree on, if not for entirely the same reasons.

teldar

November 5th, 2020 at 3:08 PM ^

I don't think the problem is fb, twitter, ig, etc. It's that people are too last too get news from multiple news outlets and address instead willing to believe what they read on social media sites. That's ignorance. It's hard for me to believe people actually think that is a good idea. But apparently, it's the majority of the country. 

ChuckieWoodson

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:15 PM ^

Yeah it's pretty fascinating, isn't it?  I'll have to catch this documentary but I stumbled upon this little gem earlier this year and it really resonated with me.  Without watching this documentary, there seem to be quite a few parallels between that and this.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2020/01/sick-giant.html

Disclaimer: it's a bit of a long read, but - well worth it, IMO.  The current "divide" as I'm sure the doc mentions is further exacerbated by social media, AI, "recommendations" and this blog dives into a ton of that.  And, sad to say, it's also exacerbating the dumbing down of America.  People more often than not don't think for themselves anymore and simply repeat soundbites they've heard on the news/from their favorite talking head - often times without even fact checking it or internalizing it on their own and really reflecting on how they feel and think about it.  Original thoughts-a-fleeting. 

 

OfficerRabbit

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:27 PM ^

I'll definitely take the read.. the scariest part of the doc was the observation that people think "the others" are just stupid, therefore the willfull disrespect most people display to anyone not in their specific little circle.. and all the while not knowing that "the others" are seeing an absolutely different display of "facts" than they are. It's mind boggling to me how much manipulation and content-control occurs on social media, and how so much of America is totally unaware of it.

Grampy

November 4th, 2020 at 6:48 AM ^

I’ll second Chuckie’s recommendation.  Tim Urban (creator of the Wait but Why) is an original thinker and observer, and offers mechanisms which explain why we let ourselves get manipulated, along with how it’s implemented.  Since the only way to combat this requires a significant commitment to self-examination, we’re all basically fucked.  If there’s anything a zealot wants to hear less than arguments for the other side, it’s arguments about why they should examine their own thinking process.

Still, ‘A Sick Giant’ is a masterful discourse on how we got into this mess and what we can do as individuals to extract ourselves from it.

yossarians tree

November 5th, 2020 at 12:52 PM ^

There is a huge difference between an intelligent person and an "informed" person. Because so many people now consider themselves "informed" (you could call it mis-informed or over-informed) due to having their faces in a screen all day, they are much more likely to engage or argue with others because they believe they are in possession of the truth. People I know who 20 years ago rarely had a political thought are now grandstanding with the conviction of a prophet at every opportunity. 

An intelligent person, on the other hand, has the critical thinking skills to reflect on this onslaught of information and adjudicate it. Unfortunately many of these people are being drowned out by all the effing noise. I fall into this category. I've had many people lately asking me "where have you been?" with the tacit meaning that I am not spouting off on social media. My shutting the hell up is a flat-out protest. 

Further, the result of so many people blabbing at, on, and over each other online is necessarily a dumbing down of the conversation. Rarely can you have a conversation about films, books, or just deep-dive philosophy. This is not who we are and it is very destructive. We are highly social animals. People need to engage with one another face-to-face more and we will see a huge reduction of vitriol and greater effort at bridging and uniting.

DairyQueen

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:25 PM ^

If anyone has any interest in this sort of stuff:

I'd recommend a Podcast called "Team Human", listen from the very beginning if you so choose.

It's creator is a CUNY-Queens faculty who is media theorist (and psychedelics writer!) who is pretty much ahead of the curve on everything. I could talk about his stupdi professional awards/recognitions, but honestly, the proof is in the pudding, just give it a listen. He talks about everything from micro-expressions, to Aristotle's 3-Act Structure, consulting for tech-billionaire's wanting to build private armies (unreal), to Stanford's infamous Captology Lab (Kurzweill, Sherry Turkle), to ancient Biblical Texts functioning as covenent-contractual language, to block-chain technology, plant-life root-signaling, and neurotransmitter moon cycles (actual research!), and was a documentarian of Timothy Leary.

(I bring him up because he's been in the same circles as The Social Dilemma's Tristan Harris for over a decade, and I remember him first interviewing him)

Take a listen!

Golden section

November 4th, 2020 at 10:55 AM ^

Tristan Harris, the Google executive who brought the dark side of social media to light and a key piece of the doc also has a podcast as well, 'Your undivided attention"  

The simple takeaway is that; the brightest minds in the world are being scooped up by the biggest tech companies and provided with the most advanced super computers to keep people engaged on their platform. 

To quote Harris, "What chance do you have?" 

GoBlue419

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:28 PM ^

I seen that Doc and it blew my mind. I've been trying to make a concerted effort to be on my phone less since seeing it. With mixed results. 

It's tough when you realized how addicted you've become.

MClass87

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:40 PM ^

One of the worst privacy invaders is actually Amazon.  When you are a Prime member, they track every single thing that you ever look at, whether it be a TV show, music, or a possible purchase.  They then sell this information to their business customers.  Amazon doesn't make money on your purchase of goods or entertainment, they make it through the sale of information about you.  Amazon is almost entirely responsible for the death of the average mom-and-pop retailer, as well as dozens of large retail chains.

I dumped Facebook and Twitter years ago.  I will not use a mainstream search engine like Google either.  The government needs to step in and break these piece of shit companies up!

4godkingandwol…

November 4th, 2020 at 4:37 AM ^

They don’t know it because it’s simply not true. Curious what your source is for your assertion? Vast majority of revenue comes from retail, most profit comes from AWS, some comes from advertising, but even then amazon doesn’t sell data about you. They are hyper protective of customer data because 1) it’s a major trust issue and 2) it’s a major competitive advantage. That’s not to say they don’t target you with hyper targeted ads, but the data is never sold to advertisers. 

TheLastHarbaugh

November 4th, 2020 at 12:41 PM ^

Amazon absolutely plays fast and loose with your data. YOU are the product, not the things they sell.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/23/21233121/amazon-employees-seller-data-private-label-products

Retail isn't even a big revenue generator for Amazon.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/02/19/how-amazon-actually-makes-money.aspx

AWS is their big money maker. That's all of your information. It's what they make their bank off of.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/090716/7-ways-amazon-uses-big-data-stalk-you-amzn.asp

"Other companies may benefit from Amazon Web Services by using them to analyze customer demographics, spending habits, and other pertinent information to more effectively cross-sell company products in ways similar to Amazon. In other words, it’s not just Amazon that can stalk you. These retailers can, too."

They absolutely sell your information. 

 

 

 

4godkingandwol…

November 6th, 2020 at 3:17 AM ^

You do realize the source you cited to prove retail isn’t the biggest revenue driver doesn’t actually support your claim, right? Linking an article doesn’t magically make you more informed, you actually need to read and understand the content. 
 

AWS drives income (also known as profit). Retail drives revenue and it is not even close. Read their income statements. 
 

and, again, they don’t sell your data. They absolutely mine it to sell you more stuff or target ads to you anonymizes but no one else is actually selling your data. 

mtzlblk

November 4th, 2020 at 1:07 PM ^

This is correct.

Full disclosure, I work there and am fairly high up, so you can judge my bias accordingly, but understand I am a semi-privacy activist and have my eyes wide open. 

I'm not going to go into depth here, but internally there is an incredible amount of training and complex layers of protection and bulwarks against the access to or usage of any identifiable customer data. There are whole teams that need to sign off on and continually audit any collection of said data and it is never sold externally. It is all scrubbed/anonymized and Amazon give you full control over what is collected and the ability to see and delete it all and have recently provided the ability to delete your Alexa voice recordings as well. 

I'm not saying it is a completely benevolent mega corp., but this is not one of their transgressions.

1VaBlue1

November 4th, 2020 at 10:46 AM ^

You don't have to be a Prime member to have your data tracked.  Everything you do on Amazon (and any of the others) is tracked, regardless of Prime membership.  That's what cookies do - they remember who you are and what you did, and give that info to the service every time you visit one of it's pages.

93Grad

November 3rd, 2020 at 10:41 PM ^

I haven’t seen the documentary but that is a sad and scary but plausible explanation of what we are seeing in the country today.  I’ve hated social media from the beginning so I guess I shouldn’t be that surprised. 

Golden section

November 4th, 2020 at 11:08 AM ^

Jeff Bezos started Amazon in the mid nineties. He became the first 100 billionaire in 2017, in just over 20 years. Subsequently, it took him just 3 years to become the the first person to be worth 200 billion. In one day in July he made 13 billion dollars - $3,000 a second.

It is not inconceivable to predict that by the end of the decade, he will be the first trillionaire and have more money than than everyone else in the country combined.

So I don't know exactly where they make their money but they make a lot of it.

Golden section

November 4th, 2020 at 4:14 PM ^

No but it does but it knows who you are and can reach down your brain stem and manipulate you. 

The doc says:

  • 50 face book likes it knows everything about you - age, marital status, number of kids, political orientation, etc.
  • 100 face book likes and it knows you better than your spouse
  • 300 Face book likes and it knows you better than you.

What do you think it does with that data? It sells targeted ad space to amazon.

 

Buckeye_Impaler8124

November 3rd, 2020 at 11:24 PM ^

Even to those of us in the tech industry, it’s very eye opening and quite frankly disturbing.  I do think they take a bit of advantage of the general lack of knowledge to make it seem worse than it is, but their point still remains.

tspoon

November 4th, 2020 at 12:04 AM ^

Yes and the guy who said Civil War was his great fear was the former CEO of Pinterest.

Not to be dismissive of the many other credible voices in the documentary, but that guy certainly came across as different than many of the others, in the way you’d think a CEO would: a little more composed, balanced ... he just spoke with measured authority throughout. When he said he views civil war as a likely outcome of all of this, I was floored. 

We can only hope and pray he’s thoroughly off base there.

NeverPunt

November 3rd, 2020 at 11:53 PM ^

Our democracy will die in the light of these companies vying for our attention with increasing effectiveness. Our ability to see each other as human and have our minds be open to different ideas and opinions is fading. Tristan Harris, who is featured in the film, has been on a number of podcasts lately and mentioned the success of the film as perhaps a glimmer of hope for change but we are a decade + into an experiment that is fundamentally altering our society with little to no way to shape it for anything other than what makes tech companies money - selling access to our attention and doing it better than the next guy. The price we are paying is in the form of our humanity. Also we need to recruit better talent on the football team.

/end rant

TheLastHarbaugh

November 4th, 2020 at 1:30 AM ^

This is why when I'm discussing things with people I say, "Let's get out of the minutiae. Let's talk about bigger concepts and ideas." You can cherry pick any set of facts/stats to make a thing/person look good/bad. This usually works quite well because it forces people off of their manufactured talking points and gets us to a point where we can have a conversation about things on a more conceptual level and find common ground.

How do you think society should be structured? What are your values and how do you connect them/how are they connected to what you believe we ought to do as a society? Etc..etc..

If you go down that particular rabbit hole I've found that conversation is much more productive. If the other person is incapable of having a conversation on that level, that is typically a sign the other person is not worth engaging with.

 

 

JoeFink

November 4th, 2020 at 3:01 AM ^

The Social Dilemma definitely opened my eyes. We're all being manipulated to some degree. My wife and I are actually ending our Facebook accounts today.

MGoStrength

November 4th, 2020 at 7:10 AM ^

I've seen it and long been on the bandwagon that the internet and social media is ruining our societal values and worsening the world.  Obviously in some ways it's helped immensely.  But, it's made us lazy and impatient.  But, I never thought the crisis was "existential".  Apparently it will lead to civil war and the end of humanity.  I don't know what critical reviews it's had, but it certainly seems to be worsening our health, both mental and physical, our patience, and our tolerance of others.

After watching however, I did turn off notifications on my cell phone.  I was already off FB, Twitter, Snapchat, and was never on IG.  I've always powered my phone off at night.  But, I added a blue light filter to my computer and phone and have been aware of my internet use and tried to stay off it after 8pm.

ChuckieWoodson

November 4th, 2020 at 8:23 AM ^

As I mentioned above I will absolutely have to catch this and maybe the doc dives into this a bit - but I saw a staggering stat that 1/5 people claim they get their news exclusively from social media; and I bet that number is exponentially increasing.  A breeding ground for misinformation and confirmation bias.

BlueinKyiv

November 4th, 2020 at 8:48 AM ^

The only thing scarier than the tactics used by the social media private sector are the solutions generated by the comments on this board.  

The only thing that destroys American democracy is when the far left and far right find common ground.  That should scare the rational middle more than targeted advertisements on our preferred social media pages.  

Perkis-Size Me

November 4th, 2020 at 8:56 AM ^

 My wife and I watched it a few weeks ago. It certainly made a great case for why I should shut down all of my social media accounts, and I am very close to doing that with my Facebook account. I’ll probably be doing it fantasy football season since  i’ve got a group of friends that we all use a private group for almost strictly for fantasy football stuff. 

 But yeah, it doesn’t take much to understand that social media is a cancer. And truthfully, it’s only going to get worse as we get more and more plugged in in the coming years. I understand social media has some benefits to it, but those have gotten lost over the last five years or so. It’s a toxic wasteland now that allows people to become  The worst versions of themselves. I mean look at the comments section of a political board. You are witnessing the lowest  levels of humanity and how people interact with each other in that area.